Talk:Saraiki language

Dialects of Saraiki Languages

Dialect group of Saraiki	Subdialect	Where spoken	Alternate_names	Notes
Saraiki (Central or Pure Saraiki)	Saraiki Language	Multan District, Lodhran District, Bahawalpur District, Muzaffargarh District, Rahim Yar Khan District, Dera Ghazi Khan District, Rajanpur District, Derawal Nagar, Delhi, India	1.Riyāsatī in Bahawalpur District. 2.Ḍerāwālī in Dera Ghazi Khan	1.According to Masica, the two names Bahāwalpurī and Riyāsatī are locally specific names for the Multani dialect group, possibly specific dialects within the group. According to Shackle, they instead denote a distinct dialect group. Also according to Shackle, the Bahawalpur District of Punjab Province (i.e., within its 1976 boundaries) is split between Mūltānī in the north and Bahāwalpurī in the south, with the dialect of Bahawalpur city being of blend of these two. 2.According to Masica, this use of the name Ḍerāwālī is to be distinguished from its use as an alternate name for a different dialect group (see following row). The spelling with retroflex 'Ḍ' instead of 'D' is according to Masica. The name dialect name "Thaḷī" is used to refer to the local dialects of both Dera Ghazi Khan and Dera Ismail Khan, but "Thaḷī" in the former is the Multani dialect and "Ḍerāwālī " in the latter is the Thaḷī dialect.
	Thaḷī, Shahpori	Bhakkar District, Layyah District, Dera Ismail Khan District, Khyber Pukhtunkhwa, Tank District, Khyber Pukhtunkhwa, Derawal Nagar, Delhi, India	1.Thalochi and Thaḷochṛi in Bhakkar District. 2.Jaṭkī; Hindko or Hindki on the west of Indus River. 3.Thaḷī in Dera Ismail Khan District and Tank District	1.Named after the Thal Desert, a region bordered by the Indus River to the west and the Jhelum and Chenab Rivers to the east. 2.Hindko is classified as Lahnda language whose southern dialects are closer to Saraiki. Sometimes, in Mianwali, it is referred as Mianwali di Boli and has close link with Hindko.
	Sindhi-Saraiki	Northern part of Sindh including Kashmore District, Jacobabad District, Shikarpur District, Tando Muhammad Khan District, Tando Allahyar District, Sobho Khan Mastoi, Kamal Khan Mastoi, Thatta District, Sujawal, Dadu District and Ghotki District.	Sireli (of north)	Dialect of Saraiki which has some features of the Sindhi language. Sindhi Saraiki is also categorized as a dialect of Sindhi language. In the Interier Sindh, 40% of population speak Sindhi-Saraiki.
	Jhangvi	Jhang District, Faisalabad District, Gujrat District, Mandi Bahauddin, Chakwal, Hafizabad, Gujranwala District, Jangal Bar tract of Faisalabad District, Okara, pakpattan and all regions encompassing the former Montgomery District	Jhangochi, Jhangi	Jhangvi dialects actually be closer to the Saraiki language. It also includes Nissoani sub-dialect or local name of Jhangi spoken by a tribe, Nissoana, as of 1919 in northern parts of Jhang District. Another sub-dialect of Jhangi, Kacchī, is named for alluvial desert plain of Kacchi, southwest of Jhang town.Dialect of Jhangochi spoken by the pastoral tribes of the mentioned areas, such as the Kharals, Wattus, Johiyas, who used to rear cattle and sheep in the jungles, before irrigation of the region. It is also called Chenavari (Cināwaṛī or Cinhāwaṛī) due to the name of an area on the right bank of the Chenab River.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.37.36.15 (talk) 09:01, 10 October 2016‎ (UTC)

References

"Balochki language" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Balochki language and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 June 3#Balochki language until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 18:19, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Variety

May be an issue of reading /comprehension is visiable. It is a Language -variety. Read the section Saraiki variety in the source. There are numerous publications some claiming Dialect some as unrelated language. Context is important, Lahnda (Western Punjabi) is a linguistic reality. Western Punjabi link can not be ignored altogather. The term Language variety is a mid view accepted by linguistics across the globe. LingoSouthAsia (talk) 17:33, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Lahnda or Western Punjabi is not a single language. It's a group of Indo-Aryan language varieties and Saraiki is one of them. For clarification, see the Lahnda article. It is also clearly mentioned in the lede that it's a language variety of Lahnda group. Snusho (talk) 11:48, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

In the context of South Asia, the choice between the appellations "language" and "dialect" is a difficult one, and any distinction made using these terms is obscured by their ambiguity. In a sense both Saraiki and Standard Panjabi are "dialects" of a "Greater Punjabi" macrolanguage. LingoSouthAsia (talk) 07:45, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Please don't edit war. See how the language descriptions are written in case of Indo-Aryan languages. For example see the article of Sambalpuri language. The term "Indo-Aryan language variety" is added as it is sometimes considered dialect and sometimes distinct language. Although, the official census of Pakistan declared it as a distinct language. You can see the references of Masica and wagha, and ethnologue as well. Snusho (talk) 09:29, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Please don't edit war. Baseline remains that Indo aryan is not a language in itself. It has many sub families east (Bengali) South (Marathi) central so on. Such broad or generalized family link can be misguiding. Nothing dening language variety and grouped in West Punjab (Pakistani Punjab). LingoSouthAsia (talk) 09:54, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Both of you, don't edit war. I have restored the stable version of the opening sentence from 8 Nov 2023.

@LingoSouthAsia: nothing is "misguiding" with linking to a well-established and easily recognizable mid-level subgroup such as Indo-Aryan.

@Snusho: I am not very commited about whether we say "language" or "language variety", but obviously, the former aligns better with the page title. Just in case we want to keep "language variety" in order to stay neutral in the dialect/language debate, I advise to link as follows: [[Indo-Aryan languages|Indo-Aryan]] [[variety (linguistics)|language variety]]. –Austronesier (talk) 14:15, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia's purpose is to benefit readers by presenting information on all branches of knowledge. It consists of freely editable content, whose articles also have numerous links to guide readers to more information.Anyone can edit Wikipedia's text, references, and images. What is written is more important than who writes it. The content must conform with Wikipedia's policies, including being verifiable by published sources. Editors' opinions, beliefs, personal experiences, unreviewed research. Most importantly its contributors enhance the quality and quantity of the articles and remove misinformation. Broad or generalized family link can be misguiding. Nothing dening language variety and grouped in West Punjab (Pakistani Punjab) so rounding up first para accordingly LingoSouthAsia (talk) 10:24, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Most importantly, Wikipedia is a collaborative project, and you want to unilaterally change the first sentence of the lede by all means. This is not how Wikipedia works. The WP:ONUS is on you to get consensus for these changes which according to you might "enhance the quality and quantity of the articles and remove misinformation", but not necessarily for everyone else. What I can see that you want to have the word "Punjabi" there, even though the article that you link to has the title "Lahnda". Obviously you should use the terminology of the target article, not your preferred one just to unduely stress the point that some consider Saraiki a mere dialect of Punjabi. I will restore the long-term stable version. Saying first the Saraiki is an Indo-Aryan language matches with the opening sentences of virtually all articles about Indo-Aryan languages (cf. Bengali language, Awadhi language, Marathi language, Sinhala language), including language varieties with a similarly debated status (e.g. Sylheti language). –Austronesier (talk) 11:55, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Please refrain from using personal attacks.Wikipedia's editors should treat each other with respect and civility Respect your fellow Wikipedians, even when you disagree. Apply Wikipedia etiquette, and do not engage in personal attacks. The Indo-Aryan family as a whole is thought to represent a dialect continuum, where languages are often transitional towards neighboring varieties. Because of this, the division into languages vs. dialects is in many cases somewhat arbitrary. The classification of the Indo-Aryan languages is controversial, with many transitional areas that are assigned to different branches depending on classification. . Primary objective is correct information as per verifiable sources by adding more and may be changing dynamically so argument of well established or standard against what sources are clearly indicating is misleading. Very first use of title "Lahnda" was done by George A. Grierson as Western punjabi. Lahnda means western and all sources accept that Lahnda has no local currency hence it is more suitable to define it is western punjabi. Again the primary objective is clear and understandable and more elaborative information rather than using braod classifications as World language or Human language or Indo-Europian language or Indo-Aryan language. Lahnda / western punjabi is direct clear classification be it Cardona or Masica P Collin or George A. Grierson or many others. Language variety is a mid path which suits transitional areas like Punjab. LingoSouthAsia (talk) 04:58, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Austronesier did not make any sort of personal attack (this is just WP:ASPERSIONS at this rate) and I agree with what they say. Moreover, you just attempted to the same at [1], which I just reverted. If you think that "Lahnda" shouldn't be used, then I suggest making a moving request with more convincing and detailed arguments. HistoryofIran (talk) 13:59, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

The classification of the Indo-Aryan languages is controversial. Exactly. And this is why using "Indo-Aryan" as a primary label is an elegant and neutral solution, since the Indo-Aryan subgroup itself is uncontroversial. And it is by no means "incorrect". –Austronesier (talk) 15:45, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

all sources accept that Lahnda has no local currency hence it is more suitable to define it is western punjabi. Yes, all sources confirm that "Lahnda" is a scholarly construct, but it doesn't appear unsuitable to Masica, Southworth and other scholars who freely use it, and not "Western Punjabi". –Austronesier (talk) 15:59, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you Austronesier and HistoryofIran for you feedback. I will put things in a very simple way.

Primary objective Vs Standard Why a person will visit Saraiki page? he dont know what is Saraiki ? He opens this page and is told that it is an Indo Aryan Language. He may think It is just like Maldivian language because that page also tell that it is an Indo Aryan Language. That is gross misleading that is because if you visit linguistic scholary data e.g. this one [2] you will find only 46% Lexical similarity of Multani (Southern Lahnda) currently named as Saraiki. Alternatively if you compare with Standard Punjabi its highest 90% even more than other Western Punjabi (Lahnda) varieties Hindko 87% Pothohari 82%. So why give wrong information to him and make it very clear in the Lead that it has very strong relation with if not with Punjabi but atleast western punjabi.

Dialect or Seprate Language or More nuetral Language variety and Concept of long standing Read article it says it was historically considered as dialect of punjabi (you can say LONG STANDING for centuries) and in 1960s (just recentaly= NOT LONG STANDING) claimed and standardized as seprate language and if you research the backdrop it is more political than linguistic (For new seprate province read article Saraikistan). Still if you search over internet then you may come up hundreds of results showing it as dialect of Punjabi. So it is better to be nuetral and use a mid way like language variety.

Lahnda or western punjabi Very first use of title "Lahnda" was done by George A. Grierson as Western punjabi. On each page of his book he used only western punjabi in foot notes detailing Lahnda.Then you see my last two para above which clearly explain why it is more suitable to define it is western punjabi. And please be professional and dont play childish sock allegation game. I am not a cheater. LingoSouthAsia (talk) 04:27, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

No response for weeks or reply not suppourted by reliable sources will lead me to revert the Leade to nuetral point of view. LingoSouthAsia (talk) 04:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Not how the policies work here (read WP:POLSILENCE and WP:CONSENSUS). You got your responses, no one agrees with you, WP:COMMON NAME is still a thing - please WP:DROPTHESTICK. HistoryofIran (talk) 04:33, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Talk about content which needs to be correct as per primary objective of WP and not secondary behaviourial policies. If you lack knowledge on the content in hand then better move to other pages. For years there is history (recheck) many users dont accept stand alone language status. I am not a single one. Article history and sources wide internet show otherside. So better stay nuetral and dont take sides. LingoSouthAsia (talk) 06:36, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

For those curious, I've reported LingoSouthAsia to WP:ANI [3]. HistoryofIran (talk) 14:21, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

You forgot to mention WP:IDHT and WP:TRUTH. I can only advise every uninvolved page watcher to hat and archive this time sink. But before that, let's get this straight for the book: @LSA repeatedly claimed that we haven't presented reliable sources that support the long-standing version of the the opening lede sentence. This is wrong. I have mentioned the reliable source Masica (1991) (and could mention many others) that uses "Lahnda" to refer to the linguistic grouping in the Indo-Aryan dialect continuum that Saraiki belongs to. Its a scholarly construct, and as long as we don't have a page move discussion for "Lahnda" to be replaced by "Western Punjabi", we can assume that it is the common name for this grouping in the relevant scholarly literature. Use linguistic sources and linguistic terminigology for linguistic concepts. Using recognizable labels (like "Punjabi") relates to sociolinguistic aspects, which are summarized in the third paragraph of the lede.

I have also presented a reliable source (the reference article "Saraiki" in JIPA, published by Cambridge University Press) that primarily labels Saraiki exactly the way we do, viz. "Saraiki is an Indo-Aryan language...". Like this encyclopedia, JIPA is a resource that addresses readers not specialized in South Asian affairs/studies; both use "Indo-Aryan" as a perfect mid-level label that gives you a rough idea where to place Saraiki language family-wise, and "language" as a neutral label that transcends political debates. "Lahnda" pins its classification further down in the tree. Finally, the third paragraph mentions the role of Punjabi as a contested dachsprache. –Austronesier (talk) 19:54, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Lahnda move

HistoryofIran ! Two users Snusho and Austronesier has accepted the Variety position proposed by me after a series of argument. HistoryofIran your only position was about use of Lahnda & You proposed to move Lahnda page. Why moving? We use | everywhere in such situations on WP. LingoSouthAsia (talk) 04:58, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

@LingoSouthAsia: Please show me the proof that they accepted your proposal, because the talk page and article history clearly says otherwise. If you can't do that, then please revert yourself. HistoryofIran (talk) 13:01, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Actually, why not ask directly @Snusho: @Austronesier: Sorry for bothering you guys, is this true? I can't find anything about it. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:02, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Wrong assertion. There is no revert from both users after my last comment (4 Jan 2024) on Talk page section Variety. They are convinced so Dont get personal and if you have issue on the topic you may take this to dispute resolution if you like. I have valid sources on my suppourt. LingoSouthAsia (talk) 13:05, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

So because they didn't revert you again they agree with you... what. I'm taking this to WP:AN/3. HistoryofIran (talk) 13:06, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

When you dont have valid sources and arguments you will just rely on childish blame game approach and refer to Admin notice board rather than professional Dispute resolution. I knew it. LingoSouthAsia (talk) 13:10, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Speaking only for myself, I have not accepted the changes by @LingoSouthAsia. I don't see the merit of not displaying Lahnda as Lahnda (plus I have pointed out that numerous sources – including the very sources mentioned by @LingoSouthAsia, e.g. Masica (1991) – use "Lahnda" rather than "Western Punjabi". Also, I have pointed out that "Indo-Aryan" is a good primary classifier for Saraiki, following the example of every WP article about Indo-Aryan varieties (and if sources are needed, why not follow a gold standard source such as the Journal of the International Phonetic Association: Saraiki (ISO 639-3:skr) is an Indo-Aryan language widely used in Pakistan and India[4]).

Deriving tacit agreement from my rejection to engage in an edit war is absurd. Instead, I have invited them to self-revert[5] to follow our soft rules of good practice in a dispute—with known result: continued edit-warring leading to a block.

My first edit ever to this article was when I intervened in the slow edit war between @LingoSouthAsia and @Snusho in December, and restored the status quo ante. Actually, @Snusho already made a slight compromise with this version:[6]

• Saraiki ... is an Indo-Aryan language variety of Lahnda group, thus accepting the change from "language" to "language variety".

In my first comment in this talk page, I have basically agreed with this slight change (and only this change), although I have suggested to adjust the wiki-links. –Austronesier (talk) 20:26, 15 January 2024 (UTC)