Talk:Rock Against Racism

Possible ambiguity

The article currently says Rock Against Racism was organised in 1976 by the Anti-Nazi League, but the Anti-Nazi League article says that the league wasn't even formed until 1977. There is a discrepancy in the dates. Can someone figure this out? -- FirstPrinciples 04:57, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)

_Yes, this is a political article, posted for political reasons. The truth is clearly irrelevant.

Inflammatory and prejudice

This article is conveyed in such a manner that it leaves the reader with the thought that Eric Clapton and David Bowie were promoting acts of racial hate crimes in 1976. When a more factual account of events is that they expressed nationalistic views and some agreement with the views of Enoch Powell. Nationalism isn't a synonym for racism, it's a sense of conservative immigration control. Not seggregation, but cultural preservation. And it's not limited to any one ethnicity or culture.

Also, albeit less crucial, I think calling someone's views "rhetoric" isn't objective. The inferred meaning of the word has become rather derogatory. And its use is questionable for something like an encyclopedia.

In my opinion the article as it is constitutes a defamation of character of those two artists. If an unobjective point of view is to be conveyed in the article, the opposite side of the pole should also be presented. With something such as "though some find that it was an opportunistic affair of scarcely known artists wanting to profit off the media circus involving these comments made by David Bowie and Eric Clapton". Though I think that would be even more inflammatory and improper. And objectivity would be a better policy.

Beyond these points I find myself too unfamiliar with the "Rock against racism" event to make an edit.

To summarise what this poster has said: it's not racist it's just racist. --78.18.56.118 (talk) 17:22, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

So “get the wogs out, get the coons out” is not racist. R-i-i-i-ght. Mr Larrington (talk) 19:54, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree, Clapton's diatribe is widely described as a 'racist rant'. No doubt his language was inflamed by a coke-addled brain, and it sits ill with a wider view of his life and associates. It can perhaps be forgiven if not forgotten, and that doesn't stop it being a shameful, racist episode. Stub Mandrel (talk) 20:13, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Alleged racist comments

I still think we should include the word allegedly before racist. <guilt> I haven't read the comments they made </guilt>, but they'd have to contain some pretty strong stuff to qualify as uncontestably racist. And again, I haven't read them, so if somebody presents them and they DO contain these characteristics, I'll probably oblige. --Theaterfreak64 23:19, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

David Bowie's remarks werw quite strong indeed, info taken from the Wiki article: "At around this time, Bowie became embroiled in a controversy caused by his comments to Playboy magazine apparently praising Hitler, and his statement to the effect that "Britain could benefit from a fascist leader". This was accompanied by some theatrics involving an open-top vintage Mercedes and a Nazi salute staged outside Victoria Station. The incident, along with some similarly controversial racist remarks by Eric Clapton, were some of the catalysts behind the Rock Against Racism movement. Later, Bowie retracted his comments, excusing himself by claiming his judgement had been affected by substance abuse." Eric Clapton's remarks, in comparision, seemed more like ignorant rambling, (this was discussed in a television show I saw yesterday), where he said something similar to "A foreigner pinched my wife in the ass, yesterday. No I'm really supporting Enoch Powell. He's the only one telling it like it really is." Ok, this is from the Eric Clapton page: "In 1976, Clapton was the centre of controversy, and accusations of racism, when he spoke out against increasing immigration, during a concert in Birmingham. Clapton said that England had "become overcrowded", and implored the crowd to vote for Enoch Powell to stop Britain becoming "a black colony". These comments (along with equally ill-advised comments by David Bowie) led to the creation of the Rock Against Racism movement in the UK.

Despite the damage to his career and reputation caused, Clapton has always steadfastly refused to distance himself from the remarks and denied there was any contradiction between his political views and his career based on an essentially black musical form. At about this time, his name appeared on albums distributed in Japan as Eric Crapton[1], though this is probably a case of Engrish rather than innuendo." David Bowie's stunts might possibly be better classified as fascist, though, but apart from that, I'd think these comments are strong enough to classify...

It seem very clear that the remarks are racist, so I am removing the "alleged". People can discuss here why this is not reasonable before reverting. Thanks. Threepillars (talk)

What actually are these things, anyway?

The article needs to explain, I think, how a concert can be, or purport to be, "against the rise of racism". Were the concerts it mentions benefits? It needs to say. If they were, where did the money go? TheScotch (talk) 09:52, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Context

This article needs some context for Americans and such. It used to be perfectly legal for Neo-Nazi parties like the National Front and the British Movement to go on TV with campaign ads (not at all like US campaign ads) during general elections. I remember as a kid watching Enoch Powell on the BBC with a Nazi flag to his left and a Union Jack to his right. There was a great deal of disaffection (to say the least) in the UK at the time. Record unemployment and Thatcherism had the Working Class down and the National Front etc. were actually getting seats in Parliament by blaming everything on the immigrants from the Commonwealth. Blah blah. --Piepie (talk) 12:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm certain Powell never appeared next to a 'Nazi flag' (he did after all voluntary join the army in the war against Nazism in 1939) and the NF never won any seats in Parliament.--Johnbull (talk) 04:56, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Mention of Bowies "Nazi" Salute

The section about Bowie reads to be truth, but the footage sourced in source 7 (the youtube link) is clearly doctored —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.27.23.222 (talk) 11:04, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Two Marches and Two Concerts

There were two RAR marches and two concerts in London 1978. I went on both of them (dates me!). One concert was at Victoria Park in the East End and the other in Brockwell Park, Brixton. All a long time ago but there definitely two concerts. Probably a bit late for a link now tho.  SmokeyTheCat  •TALK• 20:13, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I have added a sentence to this effect with a link. I think Misty In Roots played at this concert too but they are not mentioned in the article. SmokeyTheCat  •TALK• 09:05, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Misty In Roots played on the back of a lorry at the first carnival (I saw them!), but weren't on the main stage 94.168.114.80 (talk) 19:26, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

All anecdotal memories - there were two RAR marches and two concerts, but I'm sure one was in the summer of 1977 and the other in the summer of 1978 (it was blisteringly hot). Why would they have two in one year? The first was in Hyde Park where X-Ray Spex, Sham 69 and various other bands played, though I remember I couldn't hear much as another band was playing next to me on a truck. My sister lived in Streatham and we joined the march half-way through, and when we got separated and lost each other I went back to her flat on the tube from Hyde Park Corner, so it couldn't possibly have been in Brockwell Park, which is nowhere near a tube station.

The second was much bigger and was in Victoria Park - my sister, her boyfriend and I marched all the way from Trafalgar Square this time, behind a lorry with a band playing and a punkette with only a fishnet top on, which greatly impressed 16-year-old me. I have some photos somewhere, and I used to have my circular RAR cardboard placard until very recently (lost in a move dammit). Elvis Costello (broke down in tears during 'What's So Funny About Peace Love and Understanding'), Aswad, Misty In Roots (on a truck and on stage) and others played. John Cooper Clarke also performed - I talked to him about it some years later, reminding him of the peephole t-shirt he wore.

There were people in trench coats passing through the crowd, urging us all to "pick up a brick" and attack a counter demonstration by the National Front, which I thought completely missed the point of having a lovely peaceful sunny day with people of all colours and backgrounds. The compere made me laugh when he said there were more people queuing for the toilets than there were at the NF demo. This undercurrent of violence made me decide not to attend the ANL march the next year, which was a wise decision since violence erupted and Blair Peach was killed by the SPG. Krebiozen (talk) 18:18, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

clapton yes, bowie no.

my understanding of the rar is that clapton's statements were a big influence on it, but the bowie thing is entirely off base. bowie's "thin white duke" was a character, which he was acting in when he made those statements. it was meant to satirize british conservatism (and rising thatcherism), rather than to identify with it. when he said "britain was ready for fascism", he was right - and they got something close to it in thatcherism. but, that's not an endorsement of it, it's a dire analysis presented ironically from the eyes of the character he was playing. the way he played the character is actually completely consistent with the purpose of rock against racism. it's not at all dissimilar to henry rollins playing a white supremacist in a movie many years later, which is something else many people became confused by.

further, bowie was actually a very big influence on the gestating punk rock scene, both in terms of direct influence (his ronson period really defined the early british punk sound) and association (he was working with iggy pop and lou reed at the time). his brand of performance art was very influential on people like jello biafra and johnny rotten. so, i find it hard to believe that generation x or the clash or the buzzcocks weren't able to see through this and take the comments as they were intended. i've never seen any source anywhere mention this. this should really be ejected. it's less that it's libel, and it's more that it's just *wrong*.

i have removed all references to bowie. the question is not whether he said the things he said, it's whether the british punk community understood it as satire. the idea that he was a catalyst needs to be sourced reliably to the 70s, not to a recent newspaper article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.48.181.80 (talk) 14:09, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

relevant picture, from the early 80s: http://gothamist.com/attachments/byakas/3313bowie.jpg

if a section on bowie is to be included at all, it should be to point out that rock against racism was the kind of reaction he was intending to provoke by explaining the views of the british elite to the general public through the mechanism of satire. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.48.181.80 (talk) 15:10, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.48.181.80 (talk) 13:25, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Darby Crash?

What is the point of the segment on Darby Crash? How is it relevant to the topic? It simply states that Darby Crash came to believe that he was a god which in some unspecified way relates to Clapton and Bowie's political statements. It seems like it was just added by a fan of the Germs who really wanted to stretch to get a reference to their favorite band in. It is also unsourced, although it would remain irrelevant even if sourced.

Thumbsopposed (talk) 05:51, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Why the End of RAR?

I remember RAR as an exciting and popular movement with a great deal of sympathy amongst my peer group at the start of the 80s. Why did it wither on the vine? I remember joining the ANL around that time then being disillusioned when it led to absolutely no opportunities to engage or act. Was it because Thatcherism and things like the Miners' Strike and Falklands War became the object of activism at the time? Stub Mandrel (talk) 13:44, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Bowie again

Yes, Bowie made his stupid fascist remarks. And did whatever the hell he did in that limo. He was doing a ton of cocaine, and living on nothing but bell peppers and skim milk. He was out of his mind.

But by 1983 he was staring down Mark Goodman at MTV, on camera, over their racist programming. That deserves mention. Especially if he's going to be mentioned in the lede next to unrepentant racist Eric Clapton, who, rather than work to redeem the ugly mistakes of his youth, is continuing to make even bigger and uglier ones.

What he did deserves to be mentioned in the article, due to the reactions it caused and what/whom it inspired. But it needs to be contextualized in a lifetime that was far more than those ugly mistakes. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 00:56, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

So what happened?

It's strange how RAR faded away' in the early eighties at a time when one might have expected it to continue to flourish. After all, many of the issues still are relevant today. This article really could do with some sort of explanation. Stub Mandrel (talk) 20:16, 11 December 2021 (UTC)