Talk:Ingmar Bergman

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Mr. Noname?[edit]

Does anyone know this - in an interview with Bergman I recall him talking about a game he plaid as a child - he tried to say his first name again and again over and over .... and found that the name after that had lost it's function/meaning? I guess I saw this on Danish television a log time ago...

I would love to be directed to a copy of this interview or a reference... please!!

No subject[edit]

Good article.--AMT —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.121.110.xxx (talk)

Well, thank you.  :-) --Koyaanis Qatsi

Has Bergman actually said he that he's working on a Scenes from a Marriage sequel? Is there a source to go to? The only indication I've seen is in IMDB, but that entry has disappeared, then reappeared with the release date changed, etc.

Bergman's now 84, so if he's going to do the film, it would behoove him to start working on it in earnest. 209.149.235.254 00:22, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

IMDb (which is not always correct) lists Saraband as a movie "following" Scenes from a Marriage. Both films list a character named "Marianne" played by Liv Ullmann and one named "Johan" played by Erland Josephson, so I'd be inclined to say that he did in fact direct the sequel, but it was made for TV.
Um, but has anyone on the 'pedia actually seen the film? I haven't. It's not so highly rated. Koyaanis Qatsi 07:51, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
It got some good reviews at the New York Film Festival. I'm hoping for a DVD release, eventually, although I need to work my way through the Criterion mini-series version of Scenes from a Marriage first... Ellsworth 20:43, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Filmography[edit]

A bit of confusion here: The Magic Flute redirects to Die Zauberflöte which is the main article about the opera. Shouldn't Bergman's adaptation have its own article at, say, The Magic Flute (film)? Die Zauberflöte currently links to it as Trollflöjten. Bo Lindbergh 13:35, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

Contradiction[edit]

In the Bergman article, it states that: "...Scenes from a Marriage--a six-episode television feature--cost only $200,000" while the movie page says $150,000. Anyone know which figure is correct? I may be mistaken in imagining this as a contradiction because one describes cost and the other the amount the film was budgeted at. - SeanL.

Rumor has it Bergman is now a practicing Christian -- no longer an agnostic. Any sources on this? If true, should it be included? Qwerty18 06:07, 21 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If it's true, it should certainly be included, given how central existential crises are to many of his films. But the fact that nobody has stepped forward in the past year to corroborate it suggests that the rumor may be unfounded.

Pronunciation[edit]

Does anyone object to my removing the English pronunciation of his name? I believe Wikipedia should encourage proper pronunciations, so the common, but incorrect English pronunciation should be removed leaving only the Swedish pronuncation. Carl.bunderson 17:54, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

By all means let us give the proper pronunciation preferred by each person carrying a name, if it is possible to establish, but I disagree with the removal of the most common pronunciations. Many sounds unfamiliar to a speaker in his own language will always be difficult or sometimes almost impossible to pronounce. When I go abroad I don't expect all people to pronounce my Swedish name in Swedish, although I may be flattered if they try. For people as famous as Bergman from areas with minor languages there will often be established foreign pronunciations of their names, and these should be as familiar to us all as the "proper" pronunciations or we will have difficulty for example when we try to follow conversations between American critics sometimes having interesting points to make about Bergman and his art, although they don't know Swedish pronunciation./Erik Holst, who introduced the American pronunciation in this article, before somebody incorrectly claimed that the British pronunciation was identical. (In Britain the letter R is usually just pronounced before a vowel, for example.) 130.241.17.25 12:04, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Shouldn't it also be mentioned somewhere that the pronounciation of his name is always wrong in the anglo-american countries? --M96hardh 15:30, 4 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It should be specified that the IPA-notation (probably for English version) is different from Swedish-version in the sound-file. Now, it is confusing: you see one version, but hear another. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Itman (talk • contribs) 22:39, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Short article: needs to be longer--also add list of his films[edit]

It seems a little short for someone so reknowned and amazing as Bergman.Akseli 18:39, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I concur. Bergman clearly deserves a longer and more in-depth article than this, considering how highly regarded he is held in the world of cinema. Is it really appropriate to talk about his tax-evasion flap in the heading (which is already addressed later in the article)? Also: there should be a list of his films created (with links to corresponding wiki articles). Garagepunk66 (talk) 07:22, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Try Ingmar Bergman filmography. --Rob Sinden (talk) 09:34, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for pointing that out. I didin't see that they had one (and another editor said a similar thing in a post below). The filmography, where it resided, was so hard for the eye to notice. So, I switched it to come after the "Popular culture" secion. Before, it was in a place where people did not expect to see it. Now it is in a place where people do--where it belongs: after the text parts of the article in the lists sections. One extra benefit: it now appears reside in a more free-floating space (no longer looks "sandwiched") and is therefore more noticable. Perhaps we could but a graphic box around it to make it even more prominent. Garagepunk66 (talk) 10:09, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Question[edit]

Why isn't there any information in this article pertaining to the false tax charges the Swedish internal revenue service concocted against him, his self-imposed exile in Munich, and the resulting political backlash?
This seems like a very huge aspect of his biography to overlook. Ruthfulbarbarity 22:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Film stubs/red links[edit]

I've added stub articles for all the red links that were in Bergman's filmography. Please help where you can to pad out the articles! Lugnuts 12:15, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, Dear...[edit]

Swedish National Television (SVT) Text-TV quoted THIS article when the news about Bergman's death went out... --Camptown 10:08, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not big enough for the front page?[edit]

Normally prominent figures such as this make it to the Wiki headlines, yet there's no mention of him at all. That's pretty sad.

The HIV trial in Libya is pretty last week; I see no reason that it could not have been supplanted with news of Bergman's passing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.71.245.81 (talk)

No point complaining here, you can make your point on the news section discussion page. Cop 663 23:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tax Charges Section[edit]

I agree that the charge of tax evasion was an important episode in Bergman's film career and the effects of these false charges can and should be mentioned. However the period was important for all aspects of Bergman's life and the specific details and sequence of events is not particularly relevant to his film career. So I would like to move the bulk of this section back into his biogrpahy section and leave behind a shorter section on how his effected his film making. A B Carter (talk) 14:33, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, the events were indeed relevant to Bergman's film production which suffered greatly during (and probably after) these years. Also on a personal level, Bergman never really became the same again. I'd suggest that we re-incorporate the section where it belongs, a kind of introduction to the "Life of Bergman Part 2". --Camptown 21:07, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
At present there is a Biography section and a Film section. If we keep that basic division then the Bio section would give a basic overview of his life. That would seem to be the natural place to talk about the tax charges in detail. I could agree that Bergman was never quite the same after that, but that means it effected his entire life, not just what he did in film but everything else he did after that. Putting this in the Film section would imply otherwise. The film section would concentrate on his development as a director and filmmaker. Mentioning the impact of the tax charges is relevant and important but here the focus should be on his films and not, for example, what the chief of the Swedish Internal Revenue Service had to say. The latter is what I was referring to when I said some details were not relevent. I could also agree with the idea of using this as an introduction to the "Life of Bergman Part 2", but why wouldn't that imply putting it in the Biography section as opppose to the film section. A B Carter (talk) 00:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Some additional thoughts. The tax charge was an important event in Bergman's work as a director and that should be mentioned in the Film Work section. I made some attempt at this when I shifted the Tax section back to the bio, leaving behind the remarks on Fanny and Alexander and adding a sentence as a preface. I'm not particularly happy with that sentence and it could certainly be reworked and expanded. But if it is expanded the focus should be on the films he did or did not direct, or as you mention in your note to me, how the films after this event were different from the ones before. But details about the legal and financial issues and related matters and how he changed "as a person" seem more relevant to the Biography section. In the end I don't want to simply shift the remarks on the tax chargs from one section to another, but divide between the two sections where they seem appropriate. A B Carter (talk) 01:04, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This sentence is elliptical: "Bergman dissolved Persona in 1974 after having been notified by the Swedish Central Bank and subsequently reported the income." Which income? What kind of notice did the bank give him? "Dear Mr. Bergman, we have learned that the police are onto you and advise you to begin reporting the income which we have been concealing on your behalf."

Bergman's extreme reaction to this incident seems to reveal a tortured psyche. The details of his psychological makeup are crucial to interpretation of his films. Have memorable films ever been made by people who were emotionally healthy, mature, happy, and uncomplicated? Steve Wise (talk) 04:40, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Picture[edit]

Since I think that the Wild Strawberry picture is of such high quality, I nominated it featured picture - please, give you opinion here: Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Ingmar Bergman. --Camptown 13:55, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

He directed 5,555 films?[edit]

This would be over 90 films a year over his 60 active years. I find this number impossible to comprehend and IMDB lists 62 directed movies. Correction needed.

Correct Salutation for Ingrid von Rosen[edit]

This has been going round and round for awhile now. As best as I can make out the facts are the following. Ingrid karlebo married Swedish count Jan-Carl von Rosen in 1953 and therefore became a countess. Ingmar Bergman had an affair with her while she was a countess but she later divorsed the count and married Ingmar Bergman in 1971. Jan-Carl von Rosen died in 1995. I'm no expert on royalty but I got to think that if you are a commoner and you divorce a count you don't get to keep the title. So Ingmar Bergman had an affair with a countess but married Ingrid Karlebo. Happy to be correct here. A B Carter (talk) 17:06, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's correct. Ingrid lost the title Countess the same day she divorced Count Jan-Carl von Rosen. It is therefore not correct to say that Ingmar Bergman married Countess Ingrid von Rosen. Whether their love child Maria von Rosen is a countess or not depends on who is her officially registered father. As the registered father is probably (?) Count Jan-Carl von Rosen, she may according to the protocol have be born contess and retains the title for the rest of her life. --Camptown 09:02, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hitler[edit]

In an op-ed piece in Svenska Dagbladet ("Bergman beundrade Hitler", debattartikel, SvD Brännpunkt, [1]) on August 12, 2007, journalist sv:Maria-Pia Boëthius complains that none of the post-death articles about Bergman have mentioned his admiration of Hitler. According to this piece: In 1945 Bergman interpreted photos from the death camps as propaganda by the allied forces. Only in 1946 did he realize they were not, and changed his mind, chocked, deeply regretting his earlier admiration of Hitler. Boëthius interviewed Bergman in 1999 for the 2nd edition of her book on World War II (Heder och samvete : Sverige och andra världskriget, hardbound, 1991, ISBN 91-1-894142-7; 2nd ed. 1999, hardbound, ISBN 91-7324-681-6; paperback in 2001, ISBN 91-7324-854-1; the book was translated to Norwegian in 1991, but never to other languages). An approved (by Bergman) interview was printed in the book. The full interview is in manuscript in her attic. The current article already has a reference to Laterna Magica. This op-ed piece should perhaps not be a source, but maybe Boëthius' book on WWII should? I have not read it, just this op-ed piece. --LA2 05:08, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Recent Death Tag[edit]

You know, I removed the Recent Death tag a week after this gentleman died, and I was threatened by an admin with being blocked for doing so. I stated then, and repeat now, that the likelihood of anything changing in the information we have regarding a person's death "or circumstances" thereof (which is, after all, what the tag warns us of) is quite low even a few days after someone famous dies. There are exceptions, of course, but given the fact that there were absolutely no changes in the information about his death between my removal of this tag on 5 August and today, nearly three weeks after he died (which my observations show is pretty much standard for most deaths that use this tag), shows me that we need to consider our usage of this tag. Just because everyone is doing it doesn't make it a good idea. Unschool 01:39, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The concern is not that there will be rapid changes to the article regarding the person's death, but that there will be rapid changes to the entire article. The death of a person is often a spur to major changes, with some making additions that are poorly sourced or inaccurate. This is exactly what has happened to this article on Bergman, in fact two of the last changes have been corrections to additions I have made. A death is also, unfortunately, a spur to vandalism such as saying Bergman made 5,555 films or was influenced by Adam Sandler. The tag is a caution to the unsuspecting reader and appears entirely justified here. A B Carter (talk) 09:34, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The tag was created for, and the wording specifically states, "Some information, such as the circumstances of the person's death and surrounding events, may change rapidly as more facts become known." The original intent stated that we might not know how the person died, or what funeral arrangements would be made, etc. And this kind of warning, if it is justified at all, is not needed in 99% of the cases I've seen, for more than 24 hours. (One recent exception would be the Chris Benoit case, in which case the RDT might have been needed for several days.)
I have heard the justification you cite many times, and indeed, with someone of Bergman's stature, it is worth considering. But I have seen this tag also placed on relatively unfamous person's articles for whom absolutely no editing was done—other than the placement of the RDT itself—for weeks afterwards, and yet we allow the article to get moldy and out of date with this unnecessary banner.
If the tag really serves the purposes you cite, then you should support some type of rewording. As it is written now, it is silliness. Unschool 11:43, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Work[edit]

As Bergman's works are so extremely interralated to his personal life, I restored parts of the work section that had been put in a separate list. --Camptown 17:17, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But you just moved everything back. It's a huge list and should be on it's own page. Lugnuts 17:24, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Having a separate page for listing an artist's work appears to be a fairly standard practice, especially if the work is extensive. My one qualm is that the page has been titled "Bergman's filmography", but an actual majority of the page lists his work in theater. It might make more sense to change the title to "Bergman's Work" and redirect filmography to it. A B Carter (talk) 18:16, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I was a bit unsure what to call it, but the main point is that it should have it's own page from the main article. Feel free to move it to a better titled page. Lugnuts 19:24, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'd suggest a compromise: Restore the film titles (not a very long list) to the Bergman article, but leave the "main article" with all titles, including the theatrical works. --Camptown 12:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have a particular problem with that. I did a quick survey and it is not universal that a filmography gets a separate page and keeping the list of theater productions off would significantly reduce the length. But we may want to revisit this later. A B Carter (talk) 10:00, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

His lover was a secret agent[edit]

An article ("essay") by journalist Anders Thunberg and history professor no:Tore Pryser (at Lillehammer University College, Norway) in Swedish newspaper Dagens Nyheter on November 15, 2007, reveals that Ingmar Bergman's lover (in the early 1940s), actress Karin Lannby (called "Maria" in Laterna Magica) was a secret agent, reporting extensively to the Swedish military secret service. She's apparently the role model for "Ruth Köhler" in the play "Kvinna utan ansikte". In the declassified archives of the Swedish military secret service (MUST, Militära underrättelsetjänsten), her reports are signed "Annette" but nothing reveals the true identity behind this signature. The two authors of this article have connected information they found in the archives of OSS (predecessor of CIA) and information found in the archives of the Swedish secret police (SÄPO, Säkerhetspolisen), to connect the codename Annette to acress Karin Lannby. Judging from the article, I would expect a forthcoming biography of sv:Karin Lannby. --LA2 12:51, 15 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WP:WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers priority assessment[edit]

Per debate and discussion re: assessment of the approximate 100 top priority articles of the project, this article has been included as a top priority article. Wildhartlivie (talk) 10:10, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Relation to Ingrid Bergman?[edit]

Was there any family link between them? --Vladko (talk) 16:19, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No,there are no relation between them.Bergman is not a very unusual last name/C.L

HIs last wife was named Ingrid. ;-) Derekbd (talk) 19:38, 13 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agnostic or atheist?[edit]

He is currently in the categories Swedish agnostics and Swedish atheists. Which (non-) religious belief was he? He shouldn't be in both cats. Werdnawerdna (talk) 03:13, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

most people would find this a pretty trivial distinction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.4.132.165 (talk) 17:04, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Especially for someone who spent so much energy expressing his opinions about religion his whole life. It's almost obvious that he was both at different point in his life.--AnalogWeapon (talk) 20:25, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
believing that you don't know if there's a god, and being convinced that there is absolutely no god is not a trivial difference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Trqewerpioyu (talk • contribs) 20:23, 28 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Influence[edit]

I personally dislike this section, and think that if it must be here, it shouldn't just be a list of film directors with the ocassional quote following it. Would be interested in other opinions. For now, I'm going to remove any film-maker without a verifiable source as anyone can think that such-and-such was influenced by Bergman. Robsinden (talk) 12:08, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding his views on his career[edit]

The article stated "While he denounced the critical classification of three of his films (Through a Glass Darkly, Winter Light, and The Silence) as a predetermined trilogy ... this contradicts the introduction Bergman himself wrote in 1964". I don't agree with the wording "this contradicts" and have changed it to "this seems to contradict". I believe this is the more accurate wording because he says "they constitute a trilogy". "Constitute" implies that they work as a trilogy but it doesn't explicitly mean that he intended for them to be, or made them as, a trilogy, which is what he was refuting in his later statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AnalogWeapon (talk • contribs) 20:32, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Filmography[edit]

...Where is it? Oddly absent. Did someone delete it by mistake or vandalize the page? As a non-account user I don't think I can revert, but it could do with being done, urgently! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.201.91.68 (talk) 22:04, 13 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Directly under Career: Film Work is a link to the article Ingmar Bergman filmography Derekbd (talk) 19:41, 13 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Goethe Prize[edit]

I think it should be noted that Bergman was a recipient of the Goethe Prize in 1976. Here is a reference (official website of Frankfurt). Anyone want to add this in? I'm not so sure how I should go about it. Indigochild 02:55, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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The DVD "Bergman Island", his final end-of-life interviews[edit]

This documentary is based on extensive interviews with Bergman in 2004. The film should have its on wikipedia article, but can also be used as input and references for this article. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0469772/?ref_=nv_sr_1 MaxPont (talk) 00:20, 22 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Films of the mid-to-late 1960s[edit]

"In 1966, he directed Persona ... Other notable films of the period include The Virgin Spring (Jungfrukällan, 1960).."

Shouldn't The Virgin Spring, however notable, be included in an earlier sentence, being considerably earlier than the 1966–1969 films? Harfarhs (talk) 17:53, 10 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Fårö or Faroe Islands?[edit]

There seem to be some confusion in the english version of this article. The current article states that he operated out of the Faroe Islands, Denmark. This is not correct, the correct location is Fårö, Sweden. This is where he lived and worked for over 40 years [1]. It is also incorrectly stated that:

  • many of his films where shot on the Faroe Islands
  • he is buried on the Faroe Islands

My attempt to correct these mistakes was rejected as factual errors, even though the (pre-existing) cited sources clearly states Fårö, not the Faroe Islands. In fact, I've yet to find a single relation between Ingmar Bergman and the Faroe Islands. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SinjonSmythe (talk • contribs) 15:11, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://bergmangardarna.se/

Bergman became director of the Reidenz Theatre?[edit]

From the article: 'After Bergman left Sweden because of the tax evasion incident, he became director of the Residenz Theatre of Munich, Germany (1977–84).'

There is a wiki article on the Residenz Theatre with no mention of this:

'1972 to 1983 Kurt Meisel 1983 to 1986 Frank Baumbauer'

I look around and see, for example, this obituary:

'..he moved to Germany and worked as the director of the Munich Residenz Theater'.

https://www.dw.com/en/filmmaker-ingmar-bergman-dies-at-89/a-2712018

He is listed as 'director at Munich Residenzteater, 1977–82' here: https://www.encyclopedia.com/people/literature-and-arts/film-and-television-biographies/ingmar-bergman

Note this: '1976 January 30th: Arrest because of alleged tax evasion. April 21st: Bergman leaves Sweden and goes into voluntary exile. September: Moves to Munich, where he works as a director at the Residenz Theater.'

https://www.deutsche-kinemathek.de/sites/deutsche-kinemathek.de/files/public/node-attachments/pressemappe_ibergman_engl_1.pdf

I think maybe say that he 'directed regularly at the Residenztheater in Munich in the '70s and '80s'.

My point would be just to clarify that Bergman was not the chief creative officer responsible for the artistic vision of this company.DanLanglois (talk) 10:30, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Trespassing Bergman[edit]

Please make a Wikipedia article about the 2011 documentary Trespassing Bergman there is no mention of it in the article or of any other documentary made on Ingmar Bergman বিড়ালতপা চক্কোত্তি (talk) 15:40, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • You can create the article. Go for it! Cheers, Doctormatt (talk) 00:18, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

fewer titles in lede?[edit]

I think we have too many films listed in the lede. How about we reduce this list to, say, three films? How about Seventh Seal, Persona, and Fanny and Alexander? Looking around I see that some directors' articles list no films in the lede, some one or two. I look forward to hearing your thoughts. Cheers! Doctormatt (talk) 18:18, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, so nobody shared their opinion, so I went ahead and made the edit. Doctormatt (talk) 21:06, 4 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

shorten or remove "selected work" from filmography section[edit]

Hello! People keep adding films to the "selected work" portion of the Filmography section. It is no longer clear (perhaps it never was) what films should be in this "selected" list. I suggest we simply remove the "selected work" list entirely; people can follow the link to the complete, separate filmography article. What do others think? Cheers! Doctormatt (talk) 23:47, 26 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, nobody said anything, so I took out the "selected works" portion. Cheers! Doctormatt (talk) 02:10, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Opening Line[edit]

I feel it should list Filmmaker, Theatre Director, and Writer instead of just Filmmaker in the opening as context is critical to the remainder of the entry and who he is. Joe12Hawk (talk) 18:22, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Joe12Hawk: WP:ROLEBIO should be respected so I think it's enough to say "filmmaker". Thedarkknightli (talk) 19:55, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'd agree but the entry also makes mention of his career in theatre and as a writer. This context is lost with only filmmaker in the opening line. So let's see what a mod says but I think it needs to give context as it doesn't transition well without it. Joe12Hawk (talk) 20:10, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@FMSky: Could you please check this? Thanks in advance! Thedarkknightli (talk) 20:35, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you indeed. The thing too is he's a noted author and theatre director in Sweden and Germany. So he's not only known for his filmmaking. So I feel it's important to clarify to tell that story and part of his life as it helps people learn more about him beyond just film. Full context is key to these things and without that context it gets lost. Joe12Hawk (talk) 01:15, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Restored some parts[edit]

Hello. On 27 August 2022, some stuff about Bergman's Walloon ancestors was removed without apparent reason (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ingmar_Bergman&diff=next&oldid=1106993986). I restored the removed part. David Groningen (talk) 18:59, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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