Talk:Bernadotte plan

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It returns 456 Google hits. What famous people say and other quotes becomes famous. Stop reverting and stop wasting my time. Palestine-info 20:19, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

456 Google hits is not an indicator of "fame". The term "famous" is almost always inherently POV. If you want to quote someone who says the quote itself is famous, that's fine. Otherwise, stop inserting POV and wasting my time. Jayjg | (Talk) 20:23, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. There are thousands of instances on Wikipedia were someone has written "famous" without qualifying it with a reference. If you want to change that, fine, but start on another page than this. Palestine-info 20:48, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

To begin with, I get only 180 Google hits, almost all of them Palestinian advocacy sites. That tells me that if it is "famous", it is in a very select and limited circle. Second, POV is POV, and should not be inserted by you anywhere, even here. Third, please respect the Wikipedia:Civility policy. Jayjg | (Talk) 21:08, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It gets more hits than many quotes at www.quotationspage.com. Palestine-info 21:42, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

How is that relevant to the points I have made? I get only 180 Google hits, almost all of them Palestinian advocacy sites. That tells me that if it is "famous", it is in a very select and limited circle. Second, POV is POV, and should not be inserted by you anywhere, even here. Jayjg | (Talk) 21:48, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I searched for +"Folke Bernadotte" +"elemental justice." I don't know why you keep on insisting that the quote is not famous. That he said that, and that he was murdered by Lehi, is what he is remembered for. What famous people say and what other people quote is famous quotes. Palestine-info 18:27, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I searched for +"offence against the principles of elemental justice" and only got 180 hits; you are getting a lot of hits for things that are not this exact quote. Moreover, if you look through your list, you find only 42 are unique hits. Looking for the exact quote produces only 40 unique hits. 40 Palestinian advocacy sites is not particularly "famous". Moreover, your claim is circular; you claim he was "famous", then claim a small number of related groups quoting a "famous" person makes the quote famous. I doubt 1 in 100,000 people in the world have heard of Bernadotte. Hitler was famous. Mao was famous. Saddam Hussein was famous. Even Arafat was famous. Bernadotte is not. "Famous" is POV, and this definitely doesn't meet that bar for even that POV claim. Jayjg | (Talk) 18:58, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Your research is flawed because A.E which spells it "offense." Palestine-info 19:22, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Even using your search, as I have pointed out already, it still only resolves to 42 unique hits (vs. 40 with my search). The problem remains; it is a little known quote by a forgotten individual, found on a small set of websites covering one specific topic. Jayjg | (Talk) 23:22, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It also features in books etc. But I agree, it's presence on the web is not so strong. It was more famous two decades ago. Palestine-info 10:30, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

So you agree it is not famous now, and now you allege it was "more famous" decades ago? That's pretty weak for an inherently POV phrase. Jayjg (talk) 17:24, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"it's presence on the web is not so strong." It is however, a famous quote. Palestine-info 19:25, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Prove your claim. Cite your source. Remember the NPOV rule. Jayjg (talk) 19:34, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I don't whether this is helpful, but my Google searches for "an offence against the principles of elemental justice" with BE spelling for "offence," return 170 hits, resolving to 39 unique ones, all Palestinian-advocacy sites as Jay said. Spelling it "offense" returns 315 hits, 15 of them unique, which includes Wikipedia Arab-Israeli conflict and mirror sites, with the rest similar advocacy sites. Google isn't a good way to do research, but it's a good way to determine whether something is famous, and I'd say this quote definitely isn't. As a compromise, you could say "well known among Palestinians" or perhaps among Arabs, but even that might be stretching it. SlimVirgin 01:53, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Jayjg: "famous" does not belong unless attributed to a person's claim. 119 18:36, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Palestine-info, you seem very attached to saying this quote is famous or often-cited. Can you explain why you feel it's so important to add that? SlimVirgin 21:34, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)


Hi Palestine-info, I agree with the others here, "famous" and "often-cited" are subjective adjectives that only add POV to the quote. If it's so famous, let the readers recognize it themselves. --MPerel( talk | contrib) 23:02, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)

Good point. SlimVirgin 23:12, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)

Because the quote has a reason to be in this article. That reason is that it is "famous." Not in the same way that Britney Spears is famous, more in the way that if someone knows one thing that Bernadotte has said, it is this quote that they know. Or if someone knows something about the Palestine war (which by comparision to WWII is unknown), they will have heard this quote. Right now the impression given is "Well duh! The report is probably 100 pages long, why did someone pick this sentence out?" Palestine-info 00:00, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Oh, it's pretty clear why the author of the article picked this one quote out of the 100 page report; advocacy. However, you have presented a perfect example of circular reasoning; you justify its inclusion in the article because it is "famous", and justify calling it "famous" because it is included in the article. Jayjg (talk) 00:09, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

PI, you're just repeating yourself, not explaining or arguing. I'm currently rewriting the page about Wilhelm Reich and his cloudbusters, which for me are "famous" because I know about them, and I feel that a lot of other people surely know about them. But when I check Google, I get around 700 hits, all or most from Reich-related sites [1]], which tells me that his cloudbusting is not famous at all, and therefore I won't be calling it that in the article. But cloudbusting gets more hits than your quote. We have to run with the evidence. SlimVirgin 00:14, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

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