Talk:All Along the Watchtower

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Good articleAll Along the Watchtower has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 6, 2022Good article nomineeListed
August 25, 2022Peer reviewReviewed
Current status: Good article

Prince[edit]

Prince performed it at Super Bowl 41. 144.178.0.140 (talk) 20:11, 16 August 2018 (UTC) Darwin[reply]

WP:SONGCOVER. DonIago (talk) 13:35, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:All Along the Watchtower/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: K. Peake (talk · contribs) 07:41, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]


Good Article review progress box
Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()
3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()
Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Just like I told you I would review this! --K. Peake 07:41, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox and lead[edit]

  • I'm not sure if it is appropriate to caption the artwork as the Netherlands single picture sleeve when that release is not mentioned anywhere
  • The B-side is not sourced anywhere in the body
  • It looks like the single might only have been released in the Netherlands and in Germany; it's not mentioned in UK/US discographies in books like Krogsgaard's Positively Bob Dylan: A Thirty-Year Discography, Concert and Recording Session Guide, 1960-1991, Hinton's Bob Dylan Complete discography (2006) or Leigh's Bob Dylan: Outlaw Blues (2020). I'll remove from the article, and restore it if a source is found. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 14:37, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Even if the release date and territories are uncertain, can't you at least find a source calling this a single? --K. Peake 08:07, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Apart from not being in the sources above, it's also not on Olof Bjorner's site, or in Nogowski's Bob Dylan: A Descriptive, Critical Discography and Filmography, 1961-2020. Nogowski states that there were no singles from John Wesley Harding. If I knew where else to look for German or Dutch releases, I would. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:04, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move the audio sample to being in composition and lyrical interpretation instead of the infobox
  • "which was first released on his eighth studio album," → "from his eighth studio album," and place the release year in brackets instead
  • The single release sentence should be the one directly after writing/production for the correct order
  • "contain twelve lines," → "contain 12 lines," per MOS:NUM
  • "Dylan has also released several" → "Dylan has released several" and add a sentence before this one about the critical reception
  • "and versions of the song are included on several of his" → "and versions of the song are included on some of his" to be less repetitive
  • Add a sentence after the above one providing background on why Hendrix covered Dylan's work
  • Also, you could do with adding another one before the release and reception here about the musical style of the cover
  • Are you sure the release was really six months later?
  • Current version says: "over a month prior to the album release". ErnestKrause (talk) 16:12, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rather than top 20 single, shouldn't you write that it reached the top 20 on the US Billboard Hot 100?
  • The original 48th ranking on the greatest songs of all time is not sourced
In-line source is stated for the Rolling Stone top 500 list and its year; there was the 2004 list and the 2021 list, both with in-line citations. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:47, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I looked and only the 40th ranking is listed in the body, so you need to mention both. --K. Peake 08:07, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He has performed "All Along the Watchtower" live more than any of his other songs," → "The singer has performed the song live more than any of his other ones," but none of this sentence appears to be sourced in the body
  • Amended text. It's based on "critic Michael Gray noted that this is the most often performed of all of Dylan's songs.[68] According to Dylan's own website, by May 2022 he had performed the song 2,268 times.[69]" which may need rewording to clarify. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 14:59, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bob Dylan original version[edit]

Background and recording[edit]

  • "was the second single from the album, released on" → "was released as the second single from the album on" and this sentence should be moved somewhere else, as the sub-section is background and recording

Composition and lyrical interpretation[edit]

  • Per the title writing composition first, shouldn't the music sub-section come before the lyrics one?
Lyrics[edit]
  • "which Financial Times writer Dan Einac" → "which the Financial Times writer Dan Einac"
  • Pipe CBS to CBS Records International
  • "commensurate with his status."" → "commensurate with his status"." per MOS:QUOTE
  • "to give him his due."" → "to give him his due"."
  • "In the New York Times, Robert Palmer expressed his opinion that as" → "In The New York Times, Robert Palmer expressed his opinion that" with the wikilink and pipe
  • Pipe balladeer to Sentimental ballad
  • "chronological time: "at the" → "chronological time, noting "at the"
  • "the myth began again."" → "the myth began again"."
  • "in "Watchtower" as" → "in the song as"
  • "own (doom-laden) blanks."" → "own (doom-laden) blanks"."

Music[edit]

  • "The composition of the music of the song" → "The music of the song"
  • "who wrote that "The song's" → "who writes, "The song's"
  • "of two pitches"." → "of two pitches."" per MOS:QUOTE on full sentences
  • "blues influence in the song which" → "blues influence in the song, which" with the wikilink
  • "Zak compares Dylan's lyrics in "Watchtower"" → "He compares Dylan's lyrics in the song"
  • "Johnson's "Me and the Devil Blues" stating" → "Johnson's "Me and the Devil Blues" (1938), stating"

Critical reception[edit]

  • I would suggest retitling this to Release and reception, then you can move the single release date to the start of the sub-section
  • You can keep this title with no single release, but shouldn't the album release info be moved here per relevancy? --K. Peake 09:16, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "of The Los Angeles Times wrote" → "of the Los Angeles Times wrote"
  • "but felt the recording of the song seemed" → "but felt the recording seems"
  • Pipe Bucks Examiner to Buckinghamshire Examiner
  • ", and also by Troy Irvine of" → "This sentiment was shared by Troy Irvine of"
  • "Dylan, McCoy and Buttrey," → "Dylan, McCoy, and Buttrey,"
  • "three succinct verses"" → "three succinct verses"."
  • "rated it 31st in" → "listed the song 31st in"

The Jimi Hendrix experience version[edit]

  • None of the B-sides or genres listed are sourced in the prose
Added into prose using Shapiro book for citation and linking to Wikipedia article for B-side USA version; British version is quoted on jacket image featured in Infobox (can do formal citation if needed). ErnestKrause (talk) 19:11, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You forgot to pipe B-side to A-side and B-side, unlike the above text seems to imply. --K. Peake 08:07, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Current version reads: "issued the song as a single on September 2, 1968 with the B-side featuring "Burning of the Midnight Lamp"...". Is that sufficient to identify it? ErnestKrause (talk) 16:19, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Enhanced the wording. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:53, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Music[edit]

  • Each of the items below in this Music section has been added into the article. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:28, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Shouldn't the blues influences be mentioned first since genre-related text is best to start music areas?
  • "but it involves adding a" → "involving adding a"
  • "sense of tumult"." → "sense of tumult."" per MOS:QUOTE on full sentences
  • Second para looks good!
  • "written on both the Dylan and the Hendrix versions" → "written of both the Dylan and Hendrix versions"
  • "style of Muddy Waters stating:" → "style of Muddy Waters, stating:"

Recording[edit]

  • All items below in Recording section now addressed in article. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:37, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any date specified for the first day?
  • "an additional twelve-string guitar." → "an additional 12-string guitar." per MOS:NUM
  • Pipe Rolling Stones to The Rolling Stones
  • Pipe mixed to Audio mixing (recorded music)
  • Specify the year of the mixing date
  • Wikilink overdubbing
  • None of the info is sourced from the American Songwriter ref

Release, charts, and certifications[edit]

  • All 3 now addressed. Not fully sure why table captions is being listed here. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:41, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Impact of the Hendrix recording on Dylan's performances[edit]

  • "In the booklet accompanying his" → "In the booklet accompanying his 1985"
  • The Band → the Band per MOS:THEMUSIC on all occasions, unless starting a sentence
  • Shouldn't you introduce the tour as eponymous or something like that to be specific about its title in prose?
  • "Dylan " practically conceded" → "Dylan "practically conceded" to avoid excess spacing
  • "wrote that "In effect," → "wrote: "In effect,"
  • "of his own song"." → "of his own song."" per MOS:QUOTE on full sentences
  • Not done, as the original continues the sentence "of his own song, and that story continues ..." BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:13, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and his delivery of lyrics more" → "and his delivery of lyrics become more"
  • "as we can know."" → "as we can know"."
  • "Most Likely You Go Your Way (And I'll Go Mine)" → "Most Likely You Go Your Way and I'll Go Mine" with the wikilink
  • Pipe the Forum to Kia Forum
  • None of the info is sourced from the Ultimate Classic Rock ref
  • Changed the refs for this. (Leigh ref is there as Bjorner does not verify that "All Along the Watchtower" was the B-side.) BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:13, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "by May 2022 he" → "by November 2018, he" per the source
  • "goes on to say that "The" → "goes on to say, "The"
  • Even though the Grateful Dead covering the song is sourced, the first verse part is not

Legacy[edit]

  • "by dozens of artists including" → "by dozens of artists, including"
  • "on White Music (1978), U2 on" → "on White Music (1978), and U2 on"
  • Italicise Rolling Stone and mention both lists
"both lists":
  • "is included at" → "was included at"
  • "Jimi Hendrix's version of" → "His version of"
  • Pipe Billboard to Billboard (magazine)
  • "of the 20 greatest Jimi Hendrix songs," → "of the 20 greatest Hendrix songs,"
  • "of the 10 greatest Jimi Hendrix songs." → "of his 10 greatest songs."
  • "in dozens of films including" → "in dozens of films, including" also adding a comma after Watchmen

Official releases on Bob Dylan albums[edit]

  • Pipe MTV Unplugged to MTV Unplugged (Bob Dylan album)
  • Neil Young should only be wikilinked on the first instance
  • The Original Mono Recordings should only be wikilinked on the first instance

Official releases on Jimi Hendrix albums[edit]

  • Good

References[edit]

  • Copyvio score looks too high at an estimated 81.2%; cut down the level of direct quoting to fix this
  • After looking at this in some detail, it appears that the larger portion of this is from mirror sites which have been copying the Wikipedia article sometimes with explicit attribution and sometimes without. The copyvio app gives a general feedback percentage based on aggregate similarity which I do not think is due to defects in the Wikipedia article. They are mirror sites which are copying freely from Wikipedia as an open source. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:48, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did notice that too, but a good portion of this is due to direct quoting from the source at the top. --K. Peake 09:16, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The quote from the Bible I'm leaving as is without copyvio issues; the other two quotes in that section at the top I've shorten a bit so that they are not too long. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:38, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nice job, we've established the tool is a bit faulty here so slight copyvio match is acceptable! --K. Peake 06:53, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Given that the American Songwriter article was only published three months ago, I think it's very possible to argue that there was an element of backwards-copying (WP:BACKWARDSCOPY) involved, if one looks at a version of the Wikipedia article from just before that time period. Given that, I've replaced that source with Van Ronk's book, to avoid possible problems with WP:CIRCULAR. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 09:52, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Citations[edit]

Cites currently updated for entire list below. Should all be integrated. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:27, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • All of them are in harvard cites; retaining only #16 at the end of the paragraph since they all are using the same page. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:53, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wikilink Financial Times on ref 17
  • Refs 18 and 23 are duplicates of ref 9
  • pp. 130–1 → pp. 130–131 on ref 20
  • Refs 22, 42 and 64 are duplicates of ref 21
  • Author-link Robert Palmer (writer) and wikilink The New York Times on ref 24
  • Ref 27 is a duplicate of ref 2
  • The American Songwriter → American Songwriter on ref 30 with the wikilink
  • Wikilink Los Angeles Times on ref 32
  • Pipe Bucks Examiner to Buckinghamshire Examiner on ref 33
  • Ref 36 is a duplicate of ref 5
  • Author-link Alexis Petridis and wikilink The Guardian on ref 37
  • Refs 41, 48 and 49 are duplicates of ref 39
  • Refs 44 and 45 are duplicates of ref 43
  • Remove wikilink on American Songwriter for ref 51
  • Refs 55 and 81 are duplicates of ref 51
  • Pipe Fort Lauderdale Sun Sentinel to Sun-Sentinel on ref 58
  • Refs 61, 62, 68, 71 and 73 are duplicates of ref 10
  • Ref 66 is a duplicate of ref 65
  • Wikilink Ultimate Classic Rock on ref 67
  • Wikilink Rolling Stone on ref 76
  • Wikilink Guitar World on ref 78

Bibliography[edit]

All of the links below now incorporated; italic not allowed in param fields. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:12, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Italic not allowed in param fields. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:12, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

External links[edit]

  • Good

Final comments and verdict[edit]

  •  On hold until all of the issues are fixed; I await your review shortly! --K. Peake 12:44, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • ErnestKrause Thanks for getting started on this; when will you have probably implemented these changes by? --K. Peake 09:42, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • That was a pretty thorough review which both co-nominators appreciate. It may take a few more days to complete everything, and we've just located what looks like a cover sleeve for the singles release. It would be nice to do all of these updates in appreciation of your thorough comments. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:55, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • ErnestKrause I am confident in myself after your appreciation of the review; responding periodically to you is fine for me and I don't mind you taking your own time at all! --K. Peake 09:16, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • ErnestKrause Great job on this, but I would say that you still need to add text about what the audio sample illustrates of the song, add a caption for the certifications table and link B-side to A-side and B-side. --K. Peake 20:49, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • BennyOnTheLoose That seems like a decent source, so you could use it for a single release, but I'm not sure how to upload files to Wikimedia without copyright and cover art is not required anyway. --K. Peake 06:48, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've made amendments to address the points about what the audio sample illustrates of the song, a caption for the certifications table and linkin for B-side. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:11, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • ✓ Pass now, good job even though I did a bit of copy editing for you! --K. Peake 20:54, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Kyle Peake: Many thanks, as ever, for your thorough and patient review. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:32, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Dylan versions[edit]

@ErnestKrause: I'm a bit confused about your addition:

"In 1974, Dylan recorded and released a studio version of the song on Before the Flood concert which Larry Starr has called Dylan's up-tempo version of the song after listening favorably to the Hendrix version. A third version of the song is identified by Starr as being released on the MTV Unplugged concert recording released in 1995"

as this seems to repeat part of the pre-existing text:

"Dylan has released live recordings of the song on the following albums: Before the Flood (recorded February 1974); Bob Dylan at Budokan (recorded March 1978); Dylan & The Dead (recorded July 1987); and MTV Unplugged (recorded November 1994)."

I'm sure the 1974 release would have had some sort of studio treatment, but I don't think it's a "studio version". Maybe some commentary from Starr can be included, but it would need to be fully cited in the way that the other books referenced are. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:19, 2 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

BennyOnTheLoose The quote from the new Larry Starr book that I added on your Talk page is: "...'Watchtower' is a brief, compelling, and mysterious song. Its ominous character is captured memorably in the studio version, which utilizes for accompaniment just Dylan's guitar and harmonica... The singing is utterly straightforward, as if recounting a simple parable about the nameless joker and thief; Dylan is not about to disclose a hint of any deeper meaning...", from page 107. If that is useful, then maybe you can find some way to add it into the article. Any duplicated material can be deleted. Of the six Dylan books I've looked at so far, only Starr seems to give any attention to Watchtower. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:30, 2 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed the duplicate part about the 3 versions from Starr and added his quote about the lyrics to the lyrics section. If it looks ok, then it can be converted to Harvard cites format. Also there seems to be a problem with cites made to Gray;2002 in the book sources which I can't quite figure out, in the print out in the last paragraph of the Lyrics section. I've also added a short quote from the 2021 Cambridge University Press anthology on Dylan titled The World of Bob Dylan. If it looks ok, then it can be converted to Harvard cites format as well. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:08, 3 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also fixed the Harvard cites in the lyrics section I just mentioned above. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:30, 3 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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