Talk:Underworld

Definition of underworld

Should this page cover all places for dead souls or just those with negative connotations. The is a central question as it determins which links for various cultures are appropriate.

Wikitony has: The world of the dead, located underneath the world of the living; the afterlife.[1]

Personally I feel it is better if the list is more inclusive, as it makes it easier to find the heaven equivalents to some culture.--Salix alba (talk) 18:32, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

travelers to the underworld

how about a list of those mythological persons that traveled to the various underworlds such as Hercules (greek) Inanna (sumerian) Dante (christian) etal,and thier various motives, summary of experience.

• NM just saw the see also link at the top :P

Also it may be splitting hairs. but maybe distinguish Rulers/judges from gatekeepers and important inhabitants such as Thanatos and Cerberus from Hades/Dis --Bloodkith (talk) 06:35, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Ruler of Underworld, Christianity

According to the Bible, where Christianity comes from, God rules the Underworld. Satan or demons are actucally not in Hell, or the underworld yet. This is a common misconception that I can back up with biblical statements. Matthew25:11 talks about hell was actually prepared for the angels and the devil, that is wasn't intended for people. Jude 1:6-7 talks about fallen angels being chained to the earth until the day of Judgement. In Christianity God/Jesus is all powerful, and is even over Hell or the Underworld. 24.233.222.85 (talk) 15:53, 23 January 2010 (UTC)Oneforanother

Well, it may be useful to explore the relationship(s) between the Chair of the Board of a corporation, and that corporation's CEO. Who is the CEO of the Underworld? When CNBC invites someone to speak about Ford Motor Company's 5-year plan, do you think they'd rather have appearing as special guest William Clay Ford, Jr., or Alan R. Mulally? Does Satan "report" to God or Jesus? Can God terminate the contract of Mr. Lucifer? -- I'm not that crazy (talk) 16:40, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I still don't think you get the point that the Devil has absolutely no control over people in Hell. And once he is sent to Hell, per the Bible, on the day of judgement, he will be tormented forever with the rest of the people who separated themseleves from God and did not repent of their sins in Hell. The Bible says the Devil and Demons are on Earth, not ruling in Hell. He does not have a contract with the Devil.

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:10. "I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. ... And never shall thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:18, 19.

Here John is being revealed the end of times and he records it all in the book of Revelations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.233.212.93 (talk) 20:03, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Also, There is no one being punished in Hell right now, but being reserved for the day of judgement

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." 2 Peter 2:9.

These are bibilical facts which Christianity is based on. If there is no one being punished in Hell yet, then the Devil cannot be ruling there. When the day of Judgement comes and the devil is cast into the lake of fire then he can't be ruling then either. The devil does NOT have as much power as folklore has given him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.233.212.93 (talk) 20:00, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I too agree with your statements above. Christianity is based off of the Bible, and the Bible states what is above. I am going to go ahead a place that statement back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BullyBulldawg (talk • contribs) 08:06, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

--Mando Salama (talk) 16:49, 16 February 2014 (UTC)Satan as "ruler of Hell" is a misconception, popularized by the media. Even I - a Muslim - am aware that the Christian view is that the Devil isn't in Hell now, and isn't ruling it! Satan - according to the Christian dogma - is prince of "this" world!.. I came to the TALK page after reading the laughable line -in the article- about Lucifer as a ruler of Hell!!--Mando Salama (talk) 16:49, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

• Can we not have speculations here? Let's go get some sources, cite some refs, etc. Eight years, and this article is still four sentences long. Otherwise it serves no purpose at all, but as a reference to a wikt def.:| TelCoNaSpVe :| 00:23, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

References

Greek Mythology

The river Styx should be removed as it is neither the ruler, a demon, a ghost or Cerebrus. Let us discuss this —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.233.222.85 (talk) 16:07, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Merge to Hell

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Following this discussion, pages were not merged. Other potential merger topics will be discussed separately. Cnilep (talk) 14:02, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

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Can we move it to the article on Hell? Also, see my above comments. :| TelCoNaSpVe :| 01:18, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

• Comment. A user has placed a {{mergeto}} template on Underworld suggesting it be merged to Hell. Since the page has no sources and consists of two definitions, I suggest instead that Underworld (disambiguation) should be moved to Underworld. A link to Hell could then be added to the DAB. Cnilep (talk) 20:01, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Good alternative. :| TelCoNaSpVe :| 04:05, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Underworld only means a realm below the earth, not necessarily Hell, for example the Hindu underworld Patala is different from the Hindu Hell Naraka, though in some religions, both are same. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:27, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Hell and Underworld are sometimes synonymous, sometimes not, but they are different things, as you can see if you look at Greek underworld. Geoff B (talk) 18:02, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Furthermore, there may be a problem with the current article on "Hell" which encompasses many different concepts. The articles name evokes the beliefs of one specific religion (however-much this name may be taken from another religion). 14:03, 13 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hrimpurstala (talk • contribs)

Given these objections, should a link to Patala be added to Underworld (disambiguation)? If links to this and similar underworlds were added, would there still be objection to moving that page to this name? Cnilep (talk) 23:20, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I think this page worked best before the two big lists got split off into their own articles List of underworlds and [[List of underworld rulers ]]. before split There it was quite a coherent article emphasising they many different forms of the underworld. Now it is little more than a disambig. I'd prefere moving the two lists back in.--Salix (talk): 15:47, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I hadn't noticed those pages. I wonder why the page was split into lists. I have asked the editor who performed the split to comment. Cnilep (talk) 17:20, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, that editor doesn't seem interested in this discussion. I withdraw my proposal to move Underworld (disambiguation) here. I support Salix's suggestion that this page be restored to pre-split content. Cnilep (talk) 15:15, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Disagreed with merger into Hell as these can be two different concepts. Agreed with merger into List of underworlds. In any case we should improve the article as currently either page merely contains a list without much of a preface. Also redundant elements with Underworld (disambiguation) should be avoided. --Robinandroid (talk) 21:51, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

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I think this is an accurate summary of the discussion to date:

TeleComNasSprVen proposes that Underworld be merged to Hell.

• Redtigerxyz, Geoff B, Hrimpurstala, and Robinandroid oppose this suggestion.

Salix proposes that List of underworlds and List of underworld rulers be merged to Underworld.

• Cnilep supports this suggestion.
• Robinandroid supports merger from List of underworlds.

Have I got that right? Cnilep (talk) 16:18, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Merge from lists

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Following discussion, pages were merged. Cnilep (talk) 19:21, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

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As discussed above, the pages List of underworlds and List of underworld rulers were created by splitting them from Underworld. The remaining very short Underworld page was proposed for merger to Hell, but there was no consensus for that merger. During that discussion another user suggested restoring Underworld to its pre-split content. I therefore propose that both list pages be merged to their former parent. Cnilep (talk) 14:14, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

• Support as nominator. Both lists are orphans, and neither contains analysis or description. A merger would provide more meaningful explanation. The combined page would be well within recommended article size. Cnilep (talk) 14:14, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
• Support We are already seeing some specific places being added to the see also section in Underworld it makes sense to include the more comprehensive list.--Salix (talk): 15:07, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
• Weak support First, I confess that I didn't realize that they were separate lists when I proposed the merger above. But as it stands, I think that the term List of Underworlds is more accurate towards what this seems to be aiming for. :| TelCoNaSpVe :| 23:51, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
• Support as above. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
• Support' List of underworlds, yep, list of underworld rulers perhaps not. The two are very closely linked but quite different. Geoff B (talk) 21:06, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
• Support --Robinandroid (talk) 09:38, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Tamil Mythology Section

Why does it list Cur as their underworld figure and then link to a type of dog? Was this a broken or mistyped or incorrect link, or something meant to be offensive? I don't know enough about Tamil mythology to say, but this concerns me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.11.162.65 (talk) 21:25, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

I'm also concerned about this. The link to the Cur article is ambiguous at best and there are no details on that article. I'm also interested in a list of Hell Hounds and any information would be greatly appreciated. --Themetacognologist (talk) 23:15, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 30 April 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 00:57, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

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Underworld → List of underworlds – This is clearly a list and the title should reflect that per Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lists#List_naming and Wikipedia:Stand-alone_lists#Naming_conventions. Rreagan007 (talk) 06:14, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

• Support Move Underworld (disambiguation) to Underworld, and add List of underworlds to it. The term has WP:NOPRIMARY because of the sheer amount of different underworlds._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 03:46, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
• I also Support moving Underworld (disambiguation) to Underworld. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:26, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. The clear primary topic of "Underworld" is the mythological topic. If this page is moved, then the encyclopedia will be missing the opportunity to have this topic. A better solution would be to improve the discussion of underworlds as a concept in mythology. bd2412 T 21:53, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
  • That's all fine and good, but that doesn't change the fact that this is a list and the title should reflect that. I am not opposed to moving this article to "List of underworlds" and the creation of a new article about underworlds at "Underworld". Rreagan007 (talk) 00:13, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
    • Well, I've already added enough content to make a stub. The list can just be split out from under what is already in the top section. bd2412 T 00:45, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
      • That's fine, but the list should definitely be split out if we're going to decide that a full article on underworlds is needed. Rreagan007 (talk) 00:53, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
        • The list was already split off once, and then merged back with almost unanimous consensus, see the two threads above. And I see no reason to split it again: this is not the subject of a different article, but content that should ideally be incorporated in a more descriptive way into the current article's text. – Uanfala (talk) 10:31, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. Agreeing with bd2412 that the Underworld of mythology is the obvious primary topic here. The fact that the article is currently in poor shape, and hence dominated by a lengthy list, is no reason to change its title. – Uanfala (talk) 22:54, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
  • With fairly little effort, I just doubled the amount of informative text in the article. Sources are abundant and concepts needing coverage are broad. For example, the common connection between ancient cave exploration and the development of ideas about an underworld, the commonality of accounts of the hero's journey to the underworld, and physical depictions of the underworld as a dark mirror of properties of the living world. bd2412 T 23:06, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
• oppose - bd2412 has the right idea. --Netoholic @ 17:11, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

List of Underworlds

On the page: "Underworlds" there is an error for the Turkic Underworld

In the list it says that Erlik is the Underworld realm, but he is the ruler of the underworld while the Turkic underworld realm is known as Tamag. It says so on the wikipedia page for Erlik.

Now half of the internet is incorrect because when I google this everyone is copying and pasting from wikipedia.

If however, I am mistaken, and there is an instance of Erlik as an underworld realm with the same name as the ruler of said realm, I would be very interested in finding a source, because I am making a list of underworld rulers and realms with the same name. Any help would be greatly appreciated. --Themetacognologist (talk) 23:15, 17 July 2018 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Themetacognologist (talk • contribs) 23:11, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

"Intermediate state" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Intermediate state has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 October 4 § Intermediate state until a consensus is reached. Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 02:37, 4 October 2023 (UTC)