Talk:Dead end street

Untitled

When chased after, entering a cul-du-sac is disadvantageous, except when one is on foot or has a narrower vehicle than the chasing party, and there is a narrow exit.

Is this something that should be in an encyclopedia or "Hollywood 101"? --Lucky13pjn 20:06, Jun 13, 2004 (UTC)

Accidentally

File:Cul de sac.JPG

Accidentally created cul-de-sac [...]

Why is the cul-de-sac on this image so accidental? --Abdull 03:43, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

(moved image to right so as to not upset alignment of replies)—Preceding unsigned comment added by Node ue (talk • contribs) 11:06, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Dialect

I don't recall ever hearing this word growing up in Connecticut. They were always just 'courts.' Is this a regional phrase?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Gregbard (talk • contribs) 02:20, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Its not a regional phrase...Americans are too close-minded to use it 74.96.215.187 02:24, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Not in Arizona we aren't... --Node 10:29, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I've definitely used this phrase since I was a child, too, and I'm from Jersey. --12.3.61.131 (talk) 18:05, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I believe there is an aspect of dialect with this term. I had never even heard of the word "cul-de-sac" until I saw the Ed, Edd, and Eddy cartoons as a teenager. In my area (West Tennessee) a "cul-de-sac" is known simply as a "cove" by the majority of the population. (75.65.220.204 (talk) 01:00, 11 April 2013 (UTC))

Correct plural form

Please see Prescriptivism. While the etymologically correct form may well be "culs-de-sac", anyone who used that nowadays where I live, even in an academic paper, would be seen as pretentious or even wrong. "culs de sac" finds less than 100K results on Google (many of which are just people lecturing others about how it is the correct plural), while "cul de sacs" finds over 600K. I don't really care which one this article uses, but I do think the sentence about the correct plural form needs to be taken out of the introductory paragraph (and preferrably out of the article altogether) as it is clearly not the majority form. --Node 10:29, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I checked on Google to see if "culs-de-sac" was more common than "cul-de-sacs" in any of the «primary» English-speaking countries (US, CA, UK, IE, AU, NZ, IN, SG, ZA, NG...) and have found that it is not. It appears to be more common in some than in others (ratios are roughly 1:18 US, 1:82 CA, 1:4 UK, 1:44 IE, 1:37 AU, 1:5 NZ, 1:19 IN, 1:5 SG, 1:7 ZA, 0 NG, although there were less than 100 results for either in India and Singapore). It seems to me from these results (excluding Singapore and India due to relative paucity of data) that the use of "culs-de-sac" as a plural is somewhat regional, being well-accepted though not used by the majority in the UK, New Zealand, and South Africa, while in all others it is relatively foreign and unused. Note that in Canadian results I filtered for language, because if French-language results are not filtered out the ratio is 1:2, and if only French is allowed, the result is more like 5:1. --Node 10:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I've standardized it at culs-de-sac. I don't really care that much, though culs-de-sac seems more technically correct to me and is supported by the spelling in the title of the UCD article. If someone has a strong opinion, feel free to change it, but please don't just revert; there was some of each, and it'd be silly to send it back that way. 97.94.188.47 (talk) 23:15, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Why there exist separately both "Cul-de-sac (disambiguation)" and "Other uses"?

Why these two points are not together?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.64.221.101 (talk) 14:09, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that it is good to put all versions to "Cul-de-sac (disambiguation)" and in "Other uses" put the link only.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.64.221.101 (talk) 14:11, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

question

aren't cul-de-sacs normally differentiated from a normal dead-end because there are no corners in them? A dead-end can have corners but I always thought a cul-de-sac was rounded at the end.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.186.193.229 (talk) 00:02, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I was wondering that myself. Here in North Carolina, I always learned that cul-de-sacs were the ones with rounded ends, and a road that just stopped was a dead end. It seems there must be a difference of some kind, even if it's just in my state's DOT because they don't use Dead End signs in the rounded areas. They usually use No Outlet signs there instead, but my road had a Dead End sign. Suamme1 16:48, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I think cul de sacs are the roundabout of dead-ends. Once one drives into a cul de sac, just keep turning and you will leave. Exiting a dead-end is much more laborious. -Henry W. Schmitt 17:46, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I also associate "cul-de-sacs" with ends where you can turn a vehicle around and "dead ends" with more abrupt street endings, but apparently the sources use them interchangably. If a source can be found that explains the difference, it should be added to the article, but it needs to be noted that the two terms are also used interchangably. The NPR source and the William Safire source both use the two terms interchangably. Noroton (talk) 19:46, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

All cul-de-sacs are dead ends, but not all dead ends are cul-de-sacs. Heck, there are some dead end streets or roads that don't even have any houses or buildings surrounding them! I think a distinction should be made between cul-de-sacs specifically designed & built in housing developments from streets and roads which formerly were throughfares but were partially closed-off for varying reasons to form dead ends.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Shanoman (talk • contribs) 04:15, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

That is an accurate description of the relationship. As Suamme1 noted, a cul-de-sac is a specific tytpe of dead end with a rounded end for allowing for easy turning. Either the articles for cul-de-sac and dead end should be split or the article should be made to refer to dead ends with a specific cul-de-sac section. Introw (talk) 19:41, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

I have always known cul-de-sac as a short indented area off the main street with 4-5 houses on a semi-circle. If there is any road then it will be a dead-end street, even if it has a turn around. I live on one of these, and have never called it a cul-de-sac. Also, I'm not aware that these dead-end streets often have connecting trails at the end. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.102.195.127 (talk) 17:22, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

French text

Shouldn't the text at the beginning have a translation? --escondites 17:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what you mean. It states in the second paragraph that it translates to "bottom of the bag". --Bossi (talk • gallery • contrib) 22:19, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

While it could be okay to say that cul-de-sac translates to "bottom of bag", if the article asserts that the transalation is literal then it is not quite right. A literal translation of "bottom of bag" would be "bas-de-sac", and going the other way, a literal translation of "cul-de-sac" would be "ass of bag". Google Translate offers no meaning in Catalan for "cul" at all, which casts doubt on the article's assertion about that translation. In French, Google Translate offers the following choices for the meaning of the word "cul":
1.ass
2.butt
3.rump
4.fanny (US sense)
5.prat (figurative)
At best, "bottom" is a euphemism, which isn't good enough for a translation described as literal.
Gteabo (talk) 10:00, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Why do you lie? Cul is ass simply in catalan and any catalan speaker knows it. And Google translate offers the meaning "ass" for the word "cul" when you search this word. --88.14.247.253 (talk) 11:07, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

In British English "ass" is another word of donkey, what you are referring to is an "arse", which is why ass is not a good example, butt is commonly used for the end of a cigarette, rump in this context is archaic (in 1659 the populace of London roasted the rumps of animals to show their dislike for the Rump Parliament), fanny has a totally different meaning in British English, and prat means fool. -- PBS (talk) 10:59, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

OED: "Etymology: French = sack-bottom, bag-bottom." this is what should be used rather than a translation by Wikipedia editors. -- PBS (talk) 11:52, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi, I put "ass of a bag" because that is the correct meaning in French. Example : "pousse ton gros cul mon pote" will mean "move your big ass friend", not his back :). Also used in French to call the part of a bottle which is in contact with the table : "un cul de bouteille". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.173.199.173 (talk) 03:17, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

"Ass" is American English, on http://dictionary.reverso.net/french-english/cul we have the phrase "cul sec!" Which they state means "Down in one!" or "Bottoms Up!" in English. Therefore "cul" does literally mean "bottom".—Preceding unsigned comment added by Solatiumz (talk • contribs) 17:43, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

References

Traffic Calming

"... its modern use is to calm vehicle traffic. It has also been accused of creating communities which require the use of a car and are badly connected for pedestrians and cyclists."

It is important to remember that it is possible to build cul-de-sacs such that there are still route for pedestrians and cyclists. This encourages walking and cycling whilst still providing all the benefits of traffic calming. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.163.165.185 (talk) 11:12, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

not only french traffic sign

The article says the French use a specific road sign. In fact it is not just French:

• 
  Italy
• 
  Finland
• 
  Czech republic
• 
  Germany
• 
  Nederlands
• 
  Spain
• 
  Sweden
• 
  Slovakia

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.172.67.54 (talk) 09:16, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Correct plural form 2

I have been a professional transportation and land use planner in the United States for 21 years. My wife is also a professional land use planner (AICP). We both hold Master's degrees. We have NEVER heard any other planner or traffic engineer say "culs-de-sac". Not one time. I can't recall seeing it pluralized that way in any academic journals. The 100s of professional planners I have known use "cul-de-sacs" because in American English it is one word and the plural goes at the end. However, I am not suprised that the know-it-alls at NPR would pluralize it "culs-de-sac". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.154.54 (talk) 00:44, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Cite errors

There appear to be a vast number of citation errors in the article -- perhaps as a result of vandalism. Can someone fix it? --MicahBrwn (talk) 07:00, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

"eead end" misspell ?

Why is there a misspell in the last paragraph of "eead end" ? am I missing something? Georgegh (talk) 02:13, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Because I missed the "d" key and hit the "e" key, which is right above it on my keyboard. But it's fixed now. Thanks.Ccrrccrr (talk) 12:33, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

@Gerogegh Why do you report spelling mistakes without fixing them? It's easy.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a01:e35:8a8d:fe80:24a1:2c94:7c95:2742 (talk) 13:59, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Australian English?

I live in Australia and I have [b]never[/b] heard anyone call a Cul-de-sac a 'court', only, 'dead end', 'no-through-road' and 'cul-de-sac'. I realise these these streets can be called 'courts', for example Tenth Street could be called Tenth Court, but I've never heard anyone actually call a cul-de-sac a court, and both the houses I've ever lived in have been on cul-de-sacs. JWPJ (talk) 16:52, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Done. KiddieTechie KiddieTalk 11:19, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I would say that Aust street signage says 'No Through Road' and that 'No Through Road' and 'Dead End' are both used colloquially. 'Cul de sac' is also used colloquially, but less often. 'Court' and 'Close' are also occasionally used colloquially, but more for residenial streets with the bulbous end. Format (talk) 17:23, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Somehow this has stuck back in, a road is never referred to as a court in Australia. Though a Cul-de-sac might be named as one, it might also be named with any other street suffix aswell (Foobar Court could also be Foobar Place, Foobar Lane, etc.). The other three terms enjoy various levels of usage (generally they actually refer to different parts/kinds of no through road). -- Nbound (talk) 06:53, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

When I saw the topmost image, the only word that came to mind was Place.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.96.124.10 (talk) 08:22, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

International Terminology

It is interesting to see different street signs, here. I remember getting lost in a cul de sac in Dublin, years ago, as I didn't know French (and was used to the German traffic sign that resambles the Belgian one). But for further namings (Chinese etc.), I regard the selection of languages as arbitrary - this is rather a topic for the wikionary, I think. You could just point to the corresponding lemmata in these languages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.49.167.81 (talk) 15:08, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

French article name?

Why does this article bear a French name when it's DEFINITELY not the most common name for what it describes? I'd say applying this is in order. --uKER (talk) 02:32, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Great, one week and no replies. Anyway, I don't care about this article to do the change myself, but I find it ridiculous that this article bears such a convoluted name as "cul-de-sac" and not simply "dead end" or some other more common term. --uKER (talk) 20:08, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Because Wikipedia likes to make weird choice, not like a logical encyclopaedia. I can see no other answers. It happens very often. Here, it's not a forum, and people replies years later... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:E35:8A8D:FE80:24A1:2C94:7C95:2742 (talk) 14:00, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Lead

Currently the lead states:

A cul-de-sac (literally "arse of the bag" in French) is an expression of French origin also used in Catalan and Occitan referring to a dead end (British English, Canadian, American and Australian English), close, no through road (British English, Canadian and Australian English) or court (American and Australian English) meaning dead-end street with only one inlet/outlet. While historically built for other reasons, one of its modern uses is to calm vehicle traffic.

British no through road sign.

I think this lead is inaccurate for several reasons. Although the OED sates "Etymology: French = sack-bottom, bag-bottom." with a meaning of "A street, lane, or passage closed at one end, a blind alley; a place having no outlet except by the entrance;", I think that is a better description for which the "no through road" sign is used. A "no through road" (or "dead end") in British English is not usually a synonym for cul-de-sac. A "no through road" is any road that does not have another exit for motorised vehicles from the "no through road" located. For example a road may end and a footpath continue, that is a dead end for road traffic, or it may end because it simply has no other exit (eg because it leads to a carpark, or a beach, or has been block to stop commuter rat runs etc, etc). Most British people would describe these types of roads as "dead ends" They reserve cud-de-sac a short no through road with houses on both sides and the end with their frontages onto the no through road. It will of course have a "no through road sigh" but that is a function of the road layout not a description of what a "cul de sac" is. -- PBS (talk) 11:47, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Actually it's a catalan expression, written without "tags" (is called tag?): cul de sac. The french borrowed the expression from catalan, and it seems that from french passed to english. The problem is that is written exactly the same way in catalan and in french. There is another expression also, coming to catalan to french: "cap-i-cua", from catalan "cap i cua". In that case, "cap i cua" literally means "head and queue", that refers to a word or numer that can be read in the 2 directions (for example, 16361). This expression is used in french, but the difference is that in french its words doesn't make any sense if we read literally, unlike in catalan.37.135.116.173 (talk) 10:12, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

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Cul-de-sac and Dead End aren't interchangeable

I realize that many people do indeed use the terms interchangeably, but the article should also point out that many people believe there is a distinction. Specifically, a cul-de-sac is a type of dead end where the end has a "bulb" shape to facilitate turning around. It may be regional, but where I live, most people wouldn't consider a dead end without a bulb a cul-de-sac. Does that make sense? All cul-de-sacs are dead ends, but not all dead ends are cul-de-sacs?

If you're looking for source consider definition 2 on wikitionary and this page.Jon uw (talk) 01:31, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

References

Pronunciation

It's not pronounced the French way, or a way approaching, like many borrowed words? French pronunciation is "kydsak". I'm surprised English language pronounce the "l".—Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a01:e35:8a8d:fe80:24a1:2c94:7c95:2742 (talk) 13:57, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

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Reason for undoing edit on "21:05, April 12, 2018".

I undid the edit on 21:05, April 12, 2018‎ by B137 since the image added did not really relate to the article on the topic of a 'dead end street'. According to the caption it was provided to demonstrate an example of a humorously worded road sign, which really doesn't belong here. If someone disagrees with this please feel free to reply.--The Navigators (talk)-May British Rail Rest in Peace. 06:23, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Yeah I couldn't think of where to place it, if anywhere, and that it was a stretch. There's a place for it in Wikipedia, it's just gotta lay around. B137 (talk) 06:56, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 15 November 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved first to Dead end street, second not moved. The majority of commenters seemed to prefer Dead end street over Dead end so I moved the first one there. Leaving the second page as is had universal consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bensci54 (talk) 18:19, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

---

• Dead end (street) → Dead end
• Dead End → Dead End (disambiguation)

– The street seems to be the WP:PTOPIC for the term "dead end" with respect to long-term significance; the average reader who is looking for information on "dead end" would probably expect to come here. I think that this should probably usurp the primary title, and that the disambiguation page that sits there should be moved away from it. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 04:58, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

• I believe this would be a case of WP:DIFFCAPS, so I would support moving Dead end (street) over the current Dead end redirect, but oppose moving the current Dead End disambiguation page with the capital "E". And I would still keep the Dead end (disambiguation) redirect pointing to the Dead End disambiguation page. Because the street is currently the only article that uses the lowercase "e", while all the others listed on the disambiguation page use the capital "E". Zzyzx11 (talk) 05:55, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support as proposed, as a well-known concept it remains the primary topic of the variant.Polyamorph (talk) 08:11, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose as it's commonly used for other purposes like ''dead end job'' or ''genetic dead end''. Killuminator (talk) 11:06, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

@Killuminator Just to check I have read your suggestion correctly, I take it your position is Move Dead end (street) but to Dead end street. I suggested this as a form of natural disambiguation in Wikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests but I did not think it would be controversial. I am not sure if you are familiar with suggesting a move different to the one proposed but I have successfully done this before e.g. in Talk:River Dyfi#Requested move 28 July 2019 which resulted in the article being moved to River Dyfi instead of the proposed Afon Dyfi from River Dovey. Tk420 (talk) 14:31, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm fine with Dead end street, I undersigned a proposal like that down below when @Zxcvbnm made it. Killuminator (talk) 14:38, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

No, this is not fine. Do not move to dead end street.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:18, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose moving Dead End per WP:DIFFCAPS. Weak support (or indifferent support) for moving the street article as primary topic for lower case form. older ≠ wiser 12:29, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. I often see this given as "dead end street", not just "dead end". Etymologies also suggest the term has long been commonly applied to a variety of subjects. ╠╣uw [talk] 14:37, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Per others, although I do support moving to Dead end street per WP:NATURAL. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 17:31, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

  I'm fine with this counterproposal. Killuminator (talk) 18:17, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

  I don't think so, I've never heard this term used this way. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:33, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

  Either way, it falls under WP:NATURAL as a disambiguator. The parenthesis are totally unnecessary. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 21:09, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

  @ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ Just to check I have read your suggestion correctly, I take it your position is Move Dead end (street) but to Dead end street. I suggested this as a form of natural disambiguation in Wikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests but I did not think it would be controversial. I am not sure if you are familiar with suggesting a move different to the one proposed but I have successfully done this before e.g. in Talk:River Dyfi#Requested move 28 July 2019 which resulted in the article being moved to River Dyfi instead of the proposed Afon Dyfi from River Dovey. Tk420 (talk) 14:31, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

• Weak support 1st, oppose 2nd, the street has 4,464 views but the 2003 film has 5,010, Dead End: Paranormal Park has 4,263, the 1937 film has 2,050 and the band has 801[[1]]. The street may be primary by long-term significance for the lower case but its clearly not by usage for the title case per WP:DIFFCAPS. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:33, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
• Move Dead end (street) but to Dead end street as per WP:NATDIS. The term "dead end" can have different meanings e.g. as in "dead end job" but "dead end street" is unambiguous without parenthesis. Speaking as a millennial raised in the West Midlands region of England, I was taught the name of such a street as a "cul de sac" by older generations and have seen the road sign for it labelled as "No through road" by The Highway Code and its sister publication Know Your Traffic Signs which makes it look like the formal name for such a street in British English. Rules of the Road (the Irish equivalent) labels the sign's Irish counterpart as "cul de sac". This makes "dead end" seem like an informal name for such a street in these islands when formal names are preferred on Wikipedia. I took the liberty of checking the Oxford English Dictionary and the primary definition of "Dead end" is given as "an end of a road or passage from which no exit is possible". This makes it sound like the literal meaning of the phrase although in "Special usage" under the definition is "a road or passage having such an end" which makes it sound less formal as well as metaphorical when referring to the street and makes it sound like the term "dead end" primarily refers to the end of such a street as opposed to the street itself. However, Wikipedia prefers names common to all varieties of English in articles on topics without any strong national ties to any particular English-speaking country (see MOS:COMMONALITY). Then again, the most common English language name for a topic with no strong national ties is inventively the American one, given American English is the most spoken dialect of the language. According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary (the most popular in the US), sense 1a defines "dead end" as "lacking opportunities especially for advancement" e.g. a dead end job while "lacking an exit" e.g. a dead end street comes under 1b suggesting the former sense is more common there. I have also heard the term "dead end" used to describe being trapped or any space with only one way in or out in American films and TV shows futher supporting my theory of the street not being the primary topic. Tk420 (talk) 23:00, 15 November 2023 (UTC)-edited
  • Oppose moving Dead End As you may have gathered, I am referring to the first suggestion (the article currently titled "Dead end (street)"). I am opposed to moving "Dead End" (the disambiguation page) as the term does not appear to have a clear primary topic.Tk420 (talk) 23:03, 15 November 2023 (UTC)-edited

References

• Oppose. There are 42 entries listed upon the Dead End disambiguation page, with no indication that a single meaning dwarfs the combined notability of the remaining 41 entries. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 23:02, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

  User:Roman Spinner, I take it you oppose both proposals in this discussion. However, I would like to ask if you have a position on the option of moving Dead end (street) to Dead end street (my original proposal on Wikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests under Uncontroversial technical requests before I knew it was controversial). Tk420 (talk) 19:23, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  User:Tk420, while I do indeed oppose both proposals in this discussion, the alternative proposal Dead end (street) → Dead end street, which is already supported by a number of participants to this discussion, likewise has my full support. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:18, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

• Move to Dead end street, per proposals to this effect above. BD2412 T 18:03, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support move of this article to dead end and leave Dead End as is per above. I strongly oppose moving to dead end street however. As Crouch notes, that's a little-used variant and not suitable. We'd rather just keep the disambiguation as is if there's really no consensus for the obvious primary topic move. Cheers 15:16, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.