Talk:École polytechnique

"the foremost French engineering school."

I think the first sentence of this article is too promotional. You should rely on facts. I would replace it by "one of the foremost French engineering schools." Other engineering schools in France are leaders in their own field. Please sustain this claim with rankings or change the sentence. For a good description of a French grandes ecoles, go to École nationale d'administration and HEC_Paris pages. Gabaix 07:52, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

"Engineering school" is maybe not appropriate, because an important part of available courses are very theoretical (in mathematics, physics, computer science, etc.) and even the applied lessons are not oriented toward engineering. École Polytechnique is more a scientific school than an engineering school (though it is still an "école d'ingénieur" in french).

"The foremost scientific school" is not appropriate because, as you say, it is too promotional. But we can say that it is the most selective scientific school in France for two reasons :

- it has the smallest resignation rate among all the scientific Grandes Écoles (I mean by resignation rate the number of people going to the school divided by the number of people admitted) and almost all of the best students in "classes prépas" are passing the Polytechnique exam.

- École Polytechnique is also more selective than any other scientific school which is not a Grande École (universities, etc.).

--129.104.247.2 (talk) 15:35, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Only French ?

I don't think only French are allowed to access ecole polytechnique, so this phrase might be changed "Both male and female French polytechniciens (or "X")"

I don't think you can list X as a military academy. First, it has lost this status years ago. Second, there's no military training after the 8 first months, except for sports. David.Monniaux 08:05, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Is it relevant to name the Prytanée de la Flèche along with Louis-le-Grand or Henri IV here ? Maybe the author of the article attended it but to my knowledge it represents a very small minority at the École Polytechnique. In promotion 2004, only 2 people come from the Prytanée for exemple. Most students actually come from Louis-le-Grand or Sainte-Geneviève; and seeing the Prytanée mentionned here is quite surprising !

Right, one author added it, perhaps deluded by the idea that a military highschool was better to enter X. Could you perhaps start an article on "Ginette"? David.Monniaux 07:05, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A "national public establishment of an administrative character" is probably a literal translation of "établissement public (à caractère) administratif" but is not helpful/intelligible to the native English speaker. How about simply a "state university"? No-username-yet 12:45, 15 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Right, but X is not a state university. It does not follow the same statutes as French universités, by far! David.Monniaux 16:46, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

What is the English/American equivalent of the degrees offered? It says in "The Polytechnicien studies", "(students are awarded a Master after the third year of their studies at Polytechnique);" but I am not sure if they mean the equivalent of a "Master's degree"(M.A. or M.S.) in English, or if this is a French term meaning something different. Getting a M.A. or M.S. in 3 years would be rather remarkable in the U.S. - about 5 years would be the typical minimum, maybe 6 or 7 more typical.

Also, it says they take military training, but does not say if it is at the school, like Virginia Military Institute, or if they take it from the real military off-campus. Identity0 11:38, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

The master awarded at X is not a "master's degree" but a master (french word !) wich is quite the same thing as a M.S. It is awarded after 5 years of studies, 2 in the classes préparatoires and 3 at the school.

As said in the article, the basic military training takes place in the french Army moutain warfare center in Barcelonette in the Alps. It is completed by classes taken in french military academies such as école spéciale militaire de Saint-Cyr for the Army, école navale for the Navy, école de l'air for the Air Force and so. Specific affectations such as Navy Air Force requires even a third formation in specific warfare schools. During their years at X, the students have some military ceremonies wich require to wear the uniform and are still organized in platoons and companies but do not do any real military service. Some of them, very few really, choose at the end of the studies to enter in the military and a little more in the technical and ingeneer services of the defense department. 62.34.90.57 13:48, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm confused. I was under the impression that after 3 years of study, an X student is awarded a "Diplôme d'Ingénieur", which is not equivalent to a "Master" (the French word). Fourth-year students at the Polytechnique may be however admitted directly into the second year of a "Master Recherche" program in a regular university, upon completion of which they will be awarded a true master's degree (equivalent to an old French D.E.A). The Master Recherche degree in turn enables them to seek admission into a doctoral school. As far as comparisons with American degrees are concerned, I personally disagree that a 5-year German undergraduate "Diplom" or any Bac+5 French degree are comparable to a combination B.S.+ M.S. from a top American university like, let's say, MIT or Caltech. I tend to think that the models of undergraduate and first-year graduate (master's) education in the US are so different from those in continental Europe that direct comparisons are not possible. 200.177.26.167 23:11, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Dear Infinity0, entrance to X is possible normally only after 2 to 3 years of university-level studies in mathematics/physics. Remember to count these when you try to evaluate equivalences. David.Monniaux 18:40, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

It is wrong to establish equivalences between degrees based solely on the number of years of schooling that are needed to get them. It normally takes 18 years to get a "Diplôme d'Ingénieur" from the Polytechnique (13 years of elementary and secondary school + 2 years of prep classes + 3 years of Engineering School). That is indeed roughly the same number of years that are normally necessary to get an M.S. degree in the U.S (12 years of elementary and secondary school + a 4-year college major in engineering (B.S.) + 1.5 to 2 additional years of Grad School work for the master's). The two degrees however are fundamentally different in nature. American B.S. degrees aim at producing in 4 years a professional that is ready to go straight into the labor force and work as practicing engineer. Therefore, a B.S. curriculum is structured around a small math/science core (normally at the level of the 13th French school year + 2 years of prep classes) followed by breadth and depth classes in one single engineering specialty (electrical, mechanical, etc), including possibly a great deal of industry-oriented design courses. An M.S. in engineering on the other hand is an opportunity to go deeper into a given sub-area of your undergrad major (for example, within EE, in signal processing, control, communications, microelectronics, etc...) with an additional coursework that is similar in nature e.g. to the fourth-year (Part III) curriculum for a British undergraduate MEng degree in a top school like Cambridge or the Imperial College London. An M.S. degree in engineering is also an opportunity for American students to get preliminary research experience in preparation for possible future PhD studies. The "engineering" education at the Polytechnique has, on the other hand, a completely different set of goals. At least as I see it, the aim of the Polytechnicien curriculum is to provide a broad and, by American standards, fairly advanced background in (pure and applied) mathematics, computer science, and natural sciences (physics, chemistry and biology), while the teaching of professional engineering properly takes lower priority and is merely incidental as an illustrative example of application of the basic scientific subjects. The opportunity for professional engineering training/specialization (of the type that exists in the U.S. or, indeed, in the 5-year German Diplom curriculum) exists within the modern "cycle polytechnicien" only in the 4th-year (i.e. beyond the Ingénieur de la Polytechnique degree) when students may choose to move to a specialized engineering school to get another degree in a specific engineering major. Mbruno 03:47, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

A master's degree in the US is not the equivalent of a "maitrise". This is a common misunderstanding. It is closer to is closer to a DSS or a DEA in France. The US doesn't have an exact equivalent to the matrise, but it would be similar to taking a 5th year and writing an honors thesis. While some master's students do earn their degree in their 5th year in the US, it is because they began their master's courses early. It is considered a graduate degree, and not part of an undergraduate curriculum. It is often undertaken at a different school than the undergraduate degree, sometimes later in life after some time working. It can be an end in itself, like a counseling degree or an MBA, or it can be earned in the course of a PhD. program. It typically takes about 2-3 years to complete. In some disciplines, it is awarded to students who attempt a PhD but find it too taxing or beyond them. For instance, when I graduated with my bachelor's degree, I then moved all the way from Boston to Texas to join a PhD program. After a few years, having finishing most of the PhD coursework, it became clear that I wouldn't be able to finish the PhD, so I decided to get my master's which I happened to write in France. In the course of sitting in a cafe in Bordeaux and writing, I talked with a number of French and British folk, and eventually understood my degree to be closer to a DSS or DEA. To the point of this article, I would use the French word "maitrise" untranslated with a brief explanation (or a link to a stub)and not try to make a master's degree an American equivalent.

[different post and contributor...] This is an intricate matter. What has been written above about the differences between US MS programs and French "ingénieur" degrees is valid. However, there are also huge differences from one MS to another, even within the same US university. The official rule in France is that all "ingénieur" degrees give the equivalent of a Master's degree ("grade de master") and this, in turn, is consistent with the European policy (Bologna process). Students from several of the best "ingénieur" programs in France can apply to replace their final year with a MS in a partner US university (such as MIT, Stanford, Caltech, Ann Arbor, GeorgiaTech...). Roughly speaking, they tend to have a stronger background in mathematics and theoretical science than the average students in those programs, but rather less experimental/teamwork background. Ecole Polytechnique is a special case among French engineering schools. While the "ingénieur" program is very selective and intensive, and leads to the "ingénieur" degree after 3 years (i.e., 5 years of higher education), this degree is not designed as a final degree. This is not a matter of level, rather of focus. It is thus compulsory for all French students to add another two or three semesters and get a second, more specialized/finalized Master's degree or equivalent, either at Ecole Polytechnique, in a partner French institution, in a foreign university or within a Corps de l'Etat. Virtually all foreign students follow the same pattern. Thus, the "polytechnicien" program is de facto a double Master's program: the first degree ("ingénieur de l'Ecole Polytechnique") contains mostly theoretical science, with courses and project work in at least six different fields, strong components in management, humanities, languages, sports..., the second degree is more specialized, either professional or leading to the independent research part of a Ph.D. Another point should be emphasized: in France, Ph.D's generally do not include compulsory courses. This means that in contrast with US Ph.D. programs (and I do not mean integrated MS/Ph.D. here), a French student has to take all the required courses before s/he starts the doctoral work, i.e., during the Master or "ingénieur" program. Thus, the courses which one can find in a MS at MIT or Caltech would be roughly comparable to 3rd-year courses (sometimes 2nd-year) in the "ingénieur" program at Ecole Polytechnique or to Master's 2nd-year ("M2") courses, depending on the field and the degree of specialization. Some US students can actually spend an "M2" year at Ecole Polytechnique after they complete their MS, and validate it in their home university as part of their Ph.D.Gmt18 (talk) 11:40, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Ecoles d'Application

Hello people, this is to inform you that the article dedicated to SUPAERO has been placed into the peer review thread. I invite you to take a peek at it and say what you think of it. Thanks! Flambe 04:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

THES Ranking

Hi guys. For a start, I have no doubt X is a great university and probably the most selective in France. But claiming to be among the global top 10 in THES is untrue. In fact, X is placed 28th overall, 31st in natural sciences and 34th for technology. It is amongst the top 10 for staff/ student ratio. See: http://www.fc.ethz.ch/facts/ir/rankings/thes_ranking/THES_World_University_Rankings_2007.pdf/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.67.230.56 (talk) 09:23, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I second that... when I deleted this false assertion, my modifications were stubbornly deleted ! Shame ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.225.238.232 (talk) 21:55, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually it was ranked 10 in the 2005 edition, but has lost some ranks since then. So no lie and no shame —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.2.188.202 (talk) 05:07, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

True. The THES rankings changed their computation system over the years. IMHO Ecole Polytechnique can reasonably be ranked around No. 30 for the time being. By the way, I think that the reference to the Russian Global University Ranking should be suspended for now, as long as the credibility of this ranking is marred by controversy.Gmt18 (talk) 11:10, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid the THES rankings are garbage meant to falter both the UK's upper social class and the UK's underfunded wider university system, so ideally wikipedia should exclude THES citations from article introductions. Actually THES begins by being somewhat honest about their English language bias, which surfaces through favoring international students and faculty, after which they pick and choose a few exceptional non-English speaking schools. Yet, THES clearly elevates U.K. way universities above their position.

As a non-Oxbridge example, University of Manchester does not belong anywhere near 55, not even top 200. Yes, some good students graduate from there, but I'd expect most good engineering schools in Germany should rank higher: https://interestingengineering.com/the-best-engineering-schools-in-germany — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.25.6.87 (talk) 12:44, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

French Science?

The box, French Science, that was just added to this page, seems to me to be quite out of place. The École Polytechnique is part of many different categories, with science being just one of them. We could just as well put boxes for French Military, French Engineering, etc. Even worse, it is not clear what the reader is supposed to make of this box, as the École Polytechnique does not even appear in it! -- MyPOV (talk) 15:54, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Seeing no objection, I'm removing the box.--MyPOV (talk) 08:01, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

no undergrads?

The infobox says there are no undergrads, but this is completely incoherent for an article that describes in detail the Polytechnic's undergraduate curriculum. -- MyPOV (talk) 06:51, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

depends on the definition you take for "undergaduate". The Ecole delivers to its students (expect for the few phd) the French diplome d'ingénieur, which is an equivalent of a strong Master's Degree.

if you have a look on the website : all the students make undergraduate education ( http://www.polytechnique.edu/page.php?MID=173) and then they get all a graduate eduction, and then a diploma. There is NO undergraduate diploma, so I believe we can't write that the Ecole produces undergraduates. Eumachia (talk) 00:08, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

The term that you have now put in the article, "combined undergraduate-graduate curriculum", captures this well, in my opinion.--MyPOV (talk) 02:43, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

thanks for your corrections. Eumachia (talk) 20:00, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

1989 shooting

I beleive this is the school where the second montreal shooting took place. They even have a movie about it.Androo123 (talk) 20:52, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

No, the school you are referring to is Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal, in Canada. This article is about Ecole Polytechnique in Palaiseau, France, a founding member of ParisTech.Gmt18 (talk) 11:06, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

IST

The following is an unsourced quote from the article:

"Finally, some foreign students come for a single year from institutions such as MIT and IST."

As far as I understand, any foreign student already enrolled at another institution can apply [1] and there is no special exchange programme for student from IST (I tried to search for it, there is for MIT [2]. The only reference I found from IST is this page (in Portuguese) [3] which redirects students to apply through the general procedures available to students from all other universities). As such, I'm not sure why this particular institution has been mentioned. The French version of this article doesn't mention anything about it either. Universalcosmos (talk) 02:19, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

In fact, there are different exchange programs. One includes lectures and courses and anyone can indeed apply. The other one is focused on research and this is open only to partner universities. However, you are right to point out that IST has no special status - all European universities can propose an Erasmus agreement to another institution. The only specific collaboration I know of between Ecole Polytechnique and IST is a partnership in the Master's program in Molecular Chemistry. Gmt18 (talk) 11:05, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Translation?

Applied Arts & Sciences School? I am unsure if French "polytechnique" equates with English "polytechnic", nor am I sure such a direct translation applies. 71.234.215.133 (talk) 08:54, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

“engineering school” or “scientific school”?

For some time now, there have been edits going back and forth between describing the school as an “engineering school” or a “scientific school”.

The school describes itself as an engineering school. See for instance its English language page entitled The Ecole Polytechnique [4] (retrieved 2010-03-23) where it says “For over 200 years, École Polytechnique has been a leader among the French engineering grandes écoles.”

Furthermore, the school's undergraduate degree is an engineering degree. See for instance its English language page entitled Curriculum and Programs [5] (retrieved 2010-03-23) where it describes its three programs: an engineering program, a Master's program, and a doctoral program.

On this basis, it seems that the clearest and fairest primary identification of the school is that of an engineering school. If one wants to make clear that the engineering degree is a highly science-oriented degree, or if one wants to comment on the degrees offered at the Master's level, which may be primarily scientific, or if one wants to discuss the doctoral research that takes place at the school, there is certainly room to do so in the article.

MyPOV (talk) 21:34, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

You have no idea what you are talking about. Stop editing this page. Poppy (talk) 09:05, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Please help us understand in what way the school's own English language pages should not be dispositive on this matter. --MyPOV (talk) 22:44, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

I think we should stop arguing about the English in use on "École Polytechnique" and try to focus on independent secondary sources, if possible in English. It is somehow funny that this small school is ranked (among others) by the Times Higher Education within the "World University Ranking". --Anneyh (talk) 19:45, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

The website is still not perfect but the vocabulary was adjusted to "educational and research establishment". --Anneyh (talk) 20:11, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Nice to see that Polytechnique is doing a better job of explaining their programs. MyPOV (talk) 05:58, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

École polytechnique has research labs but most of students do not become scientist at all. Only few of them, neither engineer... It's more poly-scientist school, for opening minds. But after that most of them are in management or becomes consultant, otherwise they can be military officers. (most of them, of course there are some engineers, teachers, searchers etc.) DC2en (talk) 02:50, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Note that École Polytechnique's diplôme d'ingénieur program is not the only undergraduate programme or it may even be considered a graduate programme but the point is here that the school also offers a Bachelor's degree which in my knowledge isn't an engineering degree. Yes, it's true the school is first and foremost an engineering school but, I think throughout the years the school is putting a lot of it's effort in improving it's ranking in mathematics so, I think it's safe to say is that rather than calling it a "engineering" or "scientific" school it is better to call it a "engineering and science school". Mohammed Shaykh (talk) 04:57, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

selectiveness

The claim has been made that the school is the most selective of the grandes écoles. But this was backed up with the following comment: École Polytechnique has the smallest resignation rate among French Grandes Écoles. Statistics of the entrance exam

I've taken this out because it's not clear what is meant by a "resignation rate" and the reference leads to a page of unclear authority that lists dozens of documents -- which one should we be looking at?

Once clear authority has been established, this is clearly a relevant way to characterize the school, and the remark could be reinserted if it is indeed accurate.

--MyPOV (talk) 21:44, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

If you don't know what resignation rate means, you should not edit this page. Poppy (talk) 09:05, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Please be so kind as to clarify the meaning of "resignation rate" in this context. The common meaning of the term is understood in an employment context, as a measure of the percentage of people in a given employment class who resign from their position during a given year. Perhaps the reference was supposed to be to "dropout rate", which would be appropriate to an education context? But this would not be a measure of selectivity. --MyPOV (talk) 22:27, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

When people apply to the École polytechnique's main entrance exam, they almost invariably apply for other grandes écoles, e.g. École normale supérieures (ENS), Mines Paris etc. Some people who have been admitted to École polytechnique resign from the competition in order to go to some of these other grandes écoles.

Generally speaking, the only reason one would have to resign from the competition for Polytechnique is if you have been admitted to an École normale supérieure and you want to do scientific research (e.g. if you're really good at pure math and want to become a mathematician). There is no reason why one would choose not to go to Polytechnique but instead go to Mines Paris and other engineering schools, except perhaps avoiding military service.

Thus the game is between Polytechnique, ENS-Paris, ENS-Lyon, possibly ENS-Cachan, and the choice (grossly summmarized) is whether you are sure you want to do scientific research or you prefer to do engineering. And even then, there is very little actual engineering teaching at Polytechnique — it's a mix of science in a variety of areas including quantum mechanics, a little computer programming, humanities and management.

In any case, nobody disagrees from the fact that Polytechnique is the best known and most reputed engineering school in France. :-) And I'm not saying that because I'm a professor there. David.Monniaux (talk) 20:30, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

David.Monniaux, this certainly sheds light on both the meaning of the term "resignation rate" and its relevance in the context of Polytechnique.

What you are describing here would, if I am understanding correctly, more accurately be called "withdrawal" in English, rather than "resignation". One withdraws from an exam or a competition, whereas one resigns from a job or an appointed position. My reading of this is that "taux de résignation" (would that be the French?) and "resignation rate" are false friends. [Found it: the term in French that people have been translating as "resignation" in this context is "démission", which in French has the primary meaning of resignation from a job or an appointment but also has the figurative meaning of withdrawing or giving up more generally. --MyPOV (talk) 04:40, 29 March 2010 (UTC)]

To be entirely clear, I would also add some context, saying something along the lines of "Polytechnique has the lowest rate of withdrawal from its competitive entrance exam of any school in France". This is because "withdrawal rate" could also be equated with "dropout rate", meaning the portion of students who leave after starting the program but before graduating.

In the United States, a typical dropout rate for a top engineering school would be 1/3, both because the curriculum can be so tough, with students failing courses, and also because a significant number of students realize, once they start their studies, that they do not want to become engineers. I suspect, however, that the dropout rate for Polytechnique is quite low.

In any case, withdrawal rate describes an action by the students and cannot be equated with the selectiveness of the school, which is an action by the school. The two are of course related, but they are not the same. An example of selectiveness would be a statistic such as a school accepting only one in ten applicants. Instead of "selectiveness" one might say "attractiveness", as in: "the attractiveness of Polytechnique, indicated by a low rate of withdrawal from its competitive entrance exam, is the highest among French grandes écoles".

--MyPOV (talk) 04:18, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Looking once again at the Statistics of the entrance exam cited to back up the claim that Polytechnique has the lowest rate of entrance exam withdrawal, it now seems clear that one should be looking at the first document, entitled "2009 Tableau Recapitulatif". And in that document, we should be looking at the number of 57 applicants who were "démissionnaires". Against which figure should we be comparing this to arrive at the withdrawal rate? The 4468 who applied (withdrawal rate of 1.2%), the 767 who were deemed admissible (withdrawal rate of 7.4%), or the 400 + 113 = 513 who were either accepted or placed on the waiting list (withdrawal rate of 11%)? And where would we find the comparable statistics for other grandes écoles? --MyPOV (talk) 04:56, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Looking at those same statistics, the selectiveness of the school can be measured by taking the 400 students that were accepted and comparing this to the 4468 who applied to obtain an acceptance rate of 8.95%. Again, where can we find statistics for the other grandes écoles? To compare to the most selective school in the United States, the rate is comparable to Harvard's 2009 acceptance rate of 7.9%. [6] --MyPOV (talk) 05:09, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Even that would be very misleading. When students take the competitive exams for entrance to engineering schools in France, there may be two exams taking place at the same time, so student have to take a chance. Even if there are not true scheduling impossibilities, a student might not want to waste time and energy taking an exam that he or she thinks to have no chance of winning. Furthermore, the program of topics that one must cover in order to compete for Polytechnique is based on what is learned in the PC* and MP* preparatory classes, which are more selective than PC or MP.

So to summarize, not only is the acceptance rate low, but also many people don't even bother to apply and settle straight away for lesser universities. Repeat, barring some special circumstances (allergy to military, etc.), there is no reason why a person admitted to Polytechnique should choose not to go there and to go elsewhere, except if admitted to one of the ENS, which take fewer students. David.Monniaux (talk) 12:52, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

So if I understand correctly, you are saying that the withdrawal rate (taux de démission ?) is a more reliable measure of the attractiveness of a school than is the acceptance rate?

Of course many factors enter into these rates. Take the acceptance rate in the United States. High school guidance counselors generally (if they are doing their job right) steer students to apply to schools at which they have reasonable chances of getting in. Also, application fees tend to limit the number of applications that students of limited means will undertake. So there are self-selection pressures there as well, as there no doubt are in all countries. Since those pressures will be different in each country, and students are almost never choosing directly between institutions in different countries, it's no doubt hard to draw meaningful conclusions from inter-country comparisons.

But are you suggesting that the withdrawal rate is a good enough measure of the attractiveness of grandes écoles that we should leave this in the article? If so, it would be good if we could locate some documentation of comparative withdrawal rates.

--MyPOV (talk) 15:24, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

“MIT and Columbia consider École Polytechnique the best scientific establishment in France”

This statement appeared in the third paragraph of the article, however it is unsupported by the evidence.

The reference cited to support the statement about MIT is: http://www-math.mit.edu/academics/undergrad/general/international/ecole.html. This is the URL of a page at the MIT Mathematics Department, describing an exchange program between the École Polytechnique and universities in North America. A page such as this cannot be taken as a statement of the position of MIT as an institution as a whole. More accurate than “MIT considers” would be the statement “someone at MIT considers”. Furthermore, the page referenced does not fairly describe the École Polytechnique as being the best scientific establishment in France. Rather, it states: “École Polytechnique… is the most prestigious institution in Science and Engineering in France”. This is a statement about reputation of the École Polytechnique, not a judgment of its underlying quality.

The Columbia statement was supported by the following reference: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/alliance/partner.html. While the page cited is hosted by Columbia, the content is provided by the Alliance Program, which is a joint venture of four institutions of higher eduction, of which Columbia and the École Polytechnique are two. Similarly to the MIT case, above, this cannot be read as a definitive institutional position held by Columbia University regarding the quality of the École Polytechnique. Furthermore, the statements on the page cannot be read as stating that the École Polytechnique the best scientific establishment in France. They refer to reputation (“ the most prestigious educational establishment in France”, “Ecole Polytechnique has been regularly ranked at the top of undergraduate and graduate programs in Science and Technology among the French Grandes Ecoles”), and even then the statements are limited to a comparison with other educational establishments and grandes écoles, and do not compare the École Polytechnique to other “scientific establishments” (such as the CNRS, INRA, the CEA, etc.) generally.

I am therefore removing this statement.

--MyPOV (talk) 09:13, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Article outline

I find the outline of other higher education much clearer. I propose the following structure:

1. History
2. Campuses (Paris then Palaiseau, the library)
3. Organization (military status etc)
4. Academic profile (Admission, Ranking etc.)
5. Student life
6. Notable alumni and academics

What would you think? --Anneyh (talk) 17:55, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

It seems reaonsable to me, but I am curious why this particular ordering? Is it your opinion that this reflects the relative importance of the subjects? Or, as I gather from your remark, is this a standard outline that you've seen for other institutions? MyPOV (talk) 23:26, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

As you may have seen from my contributions, I"m currently working on another institution. I actually had a look at a few more and tried to compile an outline. The outlines of the institutions I had a look at were all slightly different. The history section always came up first which is also the case in many articles ( on other topics).--Anneyh (talk) 05:40, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Sure, the one you mention looks good to me. I'll be happy to help. MyPOV (talk) 04:25, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

I managed to carry out the necessary changes. I also adapted the illustrations. Now the text needs extensions... --Anneyh (talk) 20:52, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

The history section is fairly weak. It's just a chronological list, and it seems to be lacking in key historical events and essential commentary / context. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.206.212.5 (talk) 04:11, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

History section link broken

So I noticed that the link referenced in the history section to the Polytechnique's website is broken. Since this is the only link referenced in that section, it might be pretty important to fix. Here's a new link to the history section on the Polytechnique's website, although this page doesn't have all the information put on our article's section: http://www.polytechnique.edu/home/about-ecole-polytechnique/history-and-heritage/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.12.114.142 (talk) 23:47, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Ranking section

Clark, Burton R. (1993). The Research foundations of graduate education: Germany, Britain, France, United States, Japan. University of California Press. p. 162. ISBN 978-0520079977. states "they range from the immensely selective and prestigious École Polytechnique" is that good enough a source to remove the "by some"? If not, there need to be an indication of who these "some" are and who are the "others" and what these think. --Anneyh (talk) 08:06, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

"By some" is justified by the present citations: the existence of these citations demonstrates that some people consider Polytechnique to be the most prestigious educational establishment in France. "By many" or "by most" is a much greater hurdle to overcome, and there would have to be some pretty good evidence to back it up. The book cited above indicates that Polytechnique is "immensely selective and prestigious". I think we can all agree to that. But "the most prestigious"? Polytechnique is renowned for one thing: its undergraduate/masters level Polytechnic Engineer program, which is, indeed, extremely prestigious and popularly considered the top program to attend, if you can get in. But it is not known for the social sciences (Sciences Po is, I think, the "most prestigious" in this area in France). It is not the top for graduating people who go on to distinguished research careers as professors (the Ecole Normale is more prestigious in this area). It has no law school, no medical school, no business school. Although it has some excellent laboratories, it is not France's leader for peer-reviewed academic publications, or as a place for people internationally to come and pursue doctoral study (some public universities such as Paris VII, Strasbourg, UPMC, etc., are much more prestigious by this measure). MyPOV (talk) 06:37, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree that the word "most" should be taken out. In principle, I would replace the present web citations by the book one. --Anneyh (talk) 07:50, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

In any case, the Columbia link is broken. The authorship of the MIT link is unclear -- someone in the MIT Mathematics department. So the book is definitely a better citation. MyPOV (talk) 07:58, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

I made the change of text and reference. I also moved the sentence on alumni into the noted people section. --Anneyh (talk) 09:11, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Nice. MyPOV (talk) 09:28, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

Well official is "École polytechnique" i confirm it. The world École is non English, so it's the copy (a kind of quotation) of a french name. So why changing the way it is supposed to be written. Why adding caps where they are not ? you can write Polytechnique School if you prefer ! But École makes it the French name of it. I don't know about caps in English, but i know about it in French and i know École is non English word. DC2en (talk) 02:54, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. The proposal has not gathered sufficient community support. DrKay (talk) 17:03, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

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École Polytechnique → École polytechnique –

Official French spelling.

Euroflux (talk) 13:57, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

• Strong oppose See WP:AT and WP:CAPS. This is the English Wikipedia, so we use English capitalization conventions, so proper nouns such as individual schools should be capitalized as such. --BDD (talk) 23:48, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
• Comment if this is renamed then the current title should redirect to École Polytechnique de Montréal, which frequently appears with the capitalized P, and frequently is known without the city appended. -- 76.65.131.248 (talk) 04:27, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
• Comment' The website is still using capitals. I don't think this is a significant argument for not moving, as it may well do so later, but it illustrates that these capitalization reforms have still to settle in in France itself. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:35, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
• Comment I oppose the move, and Euroflux seemed to have gotten mixed up here – the reason of the French name being lowercased is because that is part of French-language grammar. English grammar is different than French grammar. To Euroflux: this RM is scoring way too many points for the local language. (sorry, but I just had to use that phrase that got Kauffner into debates on European train station pages) Hill Crest's WikiLaser! (BOOM!) 00:18, 20 September 2012 (UTC) (copy-paste from the Ecole Central de Lyon RM, also nominated by the same user)
• Strong Oppose - First of all, the Polytechnical School in France is the "most widely recognized" and oldest school named "École Polytechnique", only to Québécois people (aka. locals) is the school in Montréal "better known". Second, we use English grammar and spelling in English. --ZooFamily (talk) 21:41, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
  • The Quebecois school is also quite infamous, since it was the scene of a school massacre, so figures prominently not only for "locals", but across Canada and into the rest of North America. -- 76.65.131.248 (talk) 22:27, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose per BDD's summary. Also to note that the nominator moved the page during this discussion. I have moved it back. --Bob247 (talk) 05:43, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Confusion between Ecole polytechnique (France) and Ecole polytechnique de Montreal~made by Bloomberg Businessweek

It is important to disambiguate in the title.

Bloomberg Businessweek, Jean-Paul Herteman

Bloomberg Businessweek got mistaken : Jean-Paul Herteman attended Ecole polytechnique in France and not in Montreal.

That is why I proposed to move Ecole Polytechnique (in addition a spelling mistake) towards Ecole polytechnique (France), as it is on the French Wikipedia, or Ecole Polytechnique ---> Ecole polytechnique (EP, Palaiseau), or whatever... the important thing being to DISAMBIGUATE... . There are other Ecoles polytechniques in Lausanne, in Zürich, etc... Euroflux (talk) 10:06, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Ranking section

Both QS and Times ranking methods are not considered professional. The one which does, is the Chinese ARWU[7] which is done by recognized academic institution and use methods which give weight to objective measures only while the two in this article are based on opinions of graduates..--Gilisa (talk) 20:36, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 13 February 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus is still to retain the current title. DrKay (talk) 16:02, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

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École Polytechnique → École polytechnique – The proposed new spelling is in accordance to the right French one, see fr:École polytechnique (France), thank you – Gkml (talk) 02:10, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). The same move was proposed in 2012 but did not find consensus then. EdJohnston (talk) 04:13, 13 February 2015 (UTC) EdJohnston (talk) 04:13, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

• Weak Oppose I've seen it written in English with capitalized "P" -- 70.51.200.101 (talk) 06:02, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Hello,

2 points :

• the problem is not about a previous consensus or not ; I am proposing that spelling because as a Frenchman, and as an old fellow from that school, I can assert that the right spelling is that one according to the French rules edicted by the Imprimerie nationale (the official printer for the French State), please see the recommendations concerning that case because this is a specific university ; and if you have a look at the website of the engineer school, you will see that it complies with that rule ; it is also the case on the website of the association of the old fellows, in French « l'AX » (Association des anciens élèves et diplômés de l'X) ; nevertheless, if you prefer another spelling according to some relevant English typographic rules (of which I do not know the details), it's up to you ;
• it is obvious that you could meet the two writings, even more ; for example, I've kept the Journal Officiel (the « Official Bulletin » of the French Republic) where there is the result of my entrance exam and you would read there « école polytechnique », moreover on my diploma sheet, three years later, you read « École Polytechnique » ! Even, on some places of the website of the Bibliothèque de l'École polytechnique (the library of the school), although it is a department of the school (see the website I quoted earlier), they put a logotype which reads « École Polytechnique » ! Nevertheless, on a litterary address, they use the Imprimerie nationale spelling, namely « École polytechnique ».

Thanks for your attention, and if any clarification is needed, do not hesitate to ask for further information.

Best regards. --Gkml (talk) 15:26, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Oppose

Hi,

In French, Gkml is right, the correct spelling is "École polytechnique" in French. However, in English, I've always seen it written "Ecole Polytechnique" (without É and with capitalized P) or "École Polytechnique (with É and capitalized P). The university uses those spellings, depending on the language:

• The École Polytechnique logo vs Le logo de l'École polytechnique
• L’X will study one of the largest databases in the world vs L’X va exploiter l’une des plus grandes bases de données au monde (in the text)
• À propos de l’École vs About École Polytechnique

A455bcd9 (talk) 18:42, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

OK, thanks for the English version of the school website ; and as I said it earlier, the point is now to know if there is any typographic recommendation in English, this for two reasons :

1. Does École polytechnique know these rules ? Maybe, because it appears to be consistent concerning its English literature ;
2. Even, in its own language, but this is not the case for the École polytechnique website French version, an organism would not follow the generic rules applicable for a correct wording of its proper name, see e.g. the fr:Service hydrographique et océanographique de la Marine and its website.

Good night. --Gkml (talk) 20:58, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - this is not an article about école polytechniques in general, but a particular one called École Polytechnique. That is a title, so should be in WP:TITLECASE. French usage is irrelevant, since this is the English Wikipedia. WP:UE. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 15:45, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Renaming to « École polytechnique (France) » - previous request following - see above

Hello Amakuru and DrKay,

I especially thank Amakuru for the references he quoted ; but the problem for me is that I do not find any justification for keeping the present English name (« École Polytechnique » instead of « École polytechnique »), reading the two or more Englich rules ; and it bothers me ! In fact, I do not find a typographic rule justifying the change. Maybe, I had a bad reading of the documents. If you can quote me the relevant sentences, I would be grateful for that.

Concerning the fact that the title should not be confused with any other « ecole polytechnique », as you said it, putting additional information to the title, like « (France} », in order to obtain « École polytechnique (France) » could solve the problem : this is also the present title in French wikipedia. Because in the running text, it is possible to write « École polytechnique » with a capital « É », as it is the case in the English introductive summary, to guarantee the distinctions and prevent any possible confusion.

Besides, I recall the fact that, in that name, « polytechnique » is an adjective, and it also remains an adjective in English, I hope so at least. In French, this is the case since its change of name, one year after the creation of the engineer school in 1794 as the « École centrale des travaux publics ». You also have the same case with the « École centrale » in Paris, with its full name : « École centrale des arts et manufactures ».

I finally add that, in French, « École polytechnique » is often abbreviated as « Polytechnique » : it is obvious that, in that case, it is necessary to get a capital as the first character ; but it is a common usage to do so in order to ease the text reading and because the adjective has so evolved to a noun. In English, I understand that it is also necessary to behave in the same way. But, in both languages, those usages of abbreviations do not change the fact that the word « polytechnique » remains an adjective in the full name « École polytechnique ».

Thanks in advance for your precisions. Best regards. --Gkml (talk) 12:17, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Hi @Gkml: thanks for your comment. I'm not sure whether we would regard "polytechnique" as an adjective in an English setting, but actually that's not even relevant. The point is that titles in English are generally capitalised in running text, irrespective of whether they contain adjectives. The relevant rule here is the first rule of WP:TITLECASE - "Use lowercase, except for proper names". For example, we capitalise "United Nations" because in running text, we would write "John went to the headquarters of the United Nations to deliver a speech". Note that "united" is an adjective in English, but we still capitalise it, because "United Nations" is a proper name. Similarly with French terms such as "Arc de Triomphe". In French you might write "triomphe" uncapitalised, but in English we capitalise it. "I went to Paris and I saw the Arc de Triomphe". As far as I can see, École Polytechnique is a similar case. In French usage you would not capitalise, but in English we do. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 13:00, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your explanations, @Amakuru: ; nevertheless maybe you would be interested in knowing that in best French typography (see fr:LRTUIN and fr:Wikipédia:Conventions typographiques), we write :

• the « École polytechnique » and « Polytechnique » (when used alone) for that one in Paris ;
• the « École centrale « and « Centrale » or « Centrale Paris », also « École centrale des arts et manufactures » as quoted above ;
• « l'École centrale de Lyon » or « Centrale Lyon » ;
• « l'arc de triomphe de l'Étoile » and « l'Arc de Triomphe » (when it is wished to be implicit that it is that one of l'Étoile).

As a summary, it could be said that we preferably use lowercase when there is no need to clearly identify a precise object with a noun or an adjective. So, in the last example, the « arc de triomphe » is clearly identified by the sequence « de l'Étoile » which follows « arc … » ; thus, in that case, we do not add uppercase characters. The implicit rule of good French typography is indeed to limit uppercase characters (as far as I understood it). The aesthetic point of view is predominant. That is why we write « l'Organisation des Nations unies » where the uppercase is only needed for the first word (« Organisation ») to identify that unique organisation ; the leading uppercase character for « Nations » comes from the fact that the « Organisation » applies to countries not peoples.

Regards. --Gkml (talk) 09:25, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

@Gkml: thanks again for this reply, and yes there is no doubt that in French usage it would be styled as « École polytechnique » with a lower case p. But this is the English Wikipedia, and we use English typography, even where we are borrowing the French name because there's no specific English name. Thus « École polytechnique » in English is written as "École Polytechnique" (noting also that the « » and " " quote marks are different!). Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 16:26, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

@Amakuru:, thanks, there was no doubt in my mind ; my message was only aimed to give you some explanations, notably concerning « Arc de Triomphe ». Also please take note that some of my French colleagues in fr.wikipedia do feel a strong repulsion for the English quotes. Regards. --Gkml (talk) 16:46, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

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Tuition

The tuition section is somewhat out of date, as of the class of Polytechnicien X2015 (admitted in 2015), all student who do not serve the state for 10 years actually have to reimburse part (3/4) of their pay.

(This is no longer something specific to the student joining a Corps de l'État).

However as a non native speaker I am not exactly comfortable making this edit. I could try to unearth the decree that made that change for reference purposes if someone takes care of the edit.

Is this article "unbalanced?"

@PM3017: I don't really understand this cleanup tag here. Is this article still biased or imbalanced in some way? Jarble (talk) 02:15, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Severe deficiencies

Much of this article is promotional in tone, and much has evidently been written by French-speakers of limited ability in English. Grammar errors abound. I have fixed some of these problems, and removed some extremely substandard text, but much remains that is inadequate. A native English speaker with the time and energy to wade through it all really needs to severely edit this article if it is to even approach encyclopaedic standards. 46.233.77.228 (talk) 07:55, 19 February 2020 (UTC)