Talk:Swansea

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Beaches section: "blue-riband"?[edit]

Not surprisingly, The Guardian named it one of Britain's blue-riband top 10 category beaches (2007).[106]

Could the writer have meant "blue-ribboned"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.32.171.193 (talk) 21:11, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No. The Guardian, presuming to address the well-read, used blue riband as an exemplar by using an adjectival metaphor based on the informal Atlantic crossing trophy; itself borrowed from horse-racing; to indicate the top-notch participants.  Velella  Velella Talk   21:50, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Climate[edit]

Swansea is probably the wettest city in Britain. Wikipedia says they have only 664 mm per year, which is very low ... plus no month over 100 mm which i find not possible. Correct would be about 1350 - 1400 mm per year. 77.38.44.85 (talk) 23:00, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure about the wettest, I suspect that both Glasgow and Manchester might be in the running, however, I would agree with you re the totals. I recorded 1690 mm in the average year of 1988 in Sketty and 1196mm in 1989.  Velella  Velella Talk   23:39, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have fixed the rainfall using met office data but the temperatures are also wrong  Velella  Velella Talk   23:56, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The rainfall figures in the climate data box are much lower than the real figures. I can't work out how to correct them as they don't show on the edit screen. Those in the chart below it are correct. Jim Michael (talk) 16:11, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed the incorrect climate data box -- it appears to have been incorrect coding, but I'm not sure. If you think this looks ugly, and prefer to have the second chart included instead of the current graph, that could certainly be done!--Larry (talk) 23:13, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Images[edit]

I've corrected the caption for the image of Mr Crane's Ynyscedwyn iron works. I wonder, though – since these works were located 20 km from Swansea – whether it wouldn't be better to find an alternative image, depicting early industrial activity in Swansea itself (or at least in the Lower Swansea Valley). -- Picapica (talk) 13:10, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Something reflecting the copper industry near Swansea would seem appropriate. Perhaps this or this? Daicaregos (talk) 13:40, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that. I've used the second of your two suggestions (for now – there are more realistic images out there; however, need to find one such that is licensed for re-use!). -- Picapica (talk) 14:11, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Audio[edit]

I recommending having an audio of the pronunciation of its Welsh name, Abertawe. (A number of Wikipedia articles already hav audios of foreign-language pronunciations of names.)--Solomonfromfinland (talk) 04:58, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:52, 23 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Muddled history section[edit]

I've tried to improve the history section (which is very muddled) but with limited success. Settlement articles are often subject to ad-hoc additions and it seems this whole section is no more than anecdotal at best.

I have added an etymology section as a lot of the history stuff seemed mainly focused on the history of the name, and I've attempted to give some sort of chronological order to the rest. The last two paragraphs of Norman stuff is still duplicating info, and I have left anything Industrial to those with better knowledge.

Can anyone point me to books or articles regarding the actual founding of Swansea by the Vikings? or it's Iron Age/Roman/Early Medieval history? I have deleted a lot of info which merely pertains to Gower. Surely someone has more info on a City of 200,000 people?

In other words, Help! Cymrogogoch (talk) 16:08, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm assuming you've searched Google Books? You could look for assistance on the Wikipedia:Welsh Wikipedians' notice board.Deb (talk) 16:50, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Deb, I've not really got the time to research a well sourced history of Swansea, my background is more in linguistics and general etymology than anything specific to this part of Wales.
Since your initial reply (apologise for my late response) it seems a number of the "ad-hoc additions" I spoke of have radically altered both the history and etymology sections (not for the best, opening any subsection with the word "Basically... is hardly encyclopaedic). So I'm afraid I'll leave this page to it's watchers and wish them pob lwc.

Dispute regarding photomontage and other recent edits to Swansea article.[edit]

Hi, I recently replaced the skyline image in the Swansea article with a photomontage and a description, in the same style as many other wiki articles for cities (see pages for Cardiff, Dublin, London) for example. My montage edit was compltely reverted on 13/08/20 for the given reason 'Just a muddle of poor, cluttered photos that add nothing of value.'.

Taking this feedback on board, I have today attempted to add a photomontage again, this time with an improved selection of photos and with the correct formatting as set out at Template:Photo_montage. Along with this, I also made some changes to the beginning of the article - including distinctions between the city and the wider county of Swansea and some brief information about the new city region deal.

I was disappointed to see that a few hours later, my edits were reverted by the same user again, with the given reason 'These are not improvements'. I have reverted back to my edits for now, but I would like to seek clarity that the edits that I have made are in fact appropriate. I was especially confused by the removal of the photomontage as these are now very common across wikipedia articles for large cities and towns.

The same user has also removed my photomontage edits on the Pembrokeshire and Gower Peninsula, also without any clear reasoning. I do not believe that there is any reason to remove the photomontage edits. I will not attempt to revert to these edits again if they are removed with more detailed and fair reasoning. I appreciate that the edits that I am making may be problematic and I apologise if this is the case, I am a new user and I do not intend to cause any trouble so please correct me if this is so!

Thanks Sm01792 (talk) 16:46, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The photo of St Davids Cathedral cuts off the top of the tower. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:58, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Name[edit]

The name of the city is derived from old Norse and, over centuries, it developed within the community itself to its present name, Swansea. To contrast it with the Welsh name of the city, Swansea had been referred to in the article as the city's English name, as if it was a name imposed by the English, in a similar way that Canton in China or Calcutta in India were, but this is incorrect. As stated, the name originated from old Norse and then changed over the centuries within the community itself and was not a name given to the city by the English. In fact, in every country on the planet, the city is known as Swansea and so, to distinguish it from the Welsh name, I have referred to it as the internationally recognized name. If someone insists on referring to name Swansea as the city's English name, then I request that they provide evidence that the name is not of Norse origin, but instead of an early Anglo Saxon dialect, or that later the English imposed the name Swansea on the city and that it has no connection to the early assumed Norse name. I have no interest in the matter other than to provive the article with correct and credible information. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.2.106.42 (talk) 18:26, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This comment was left on my user page. My reply is below: Comment: You wrote: "it is the name that the city is known in every country of the planet. And, the name is no more English than it is French or Chinese. It originated as a Norse name and then evolved in the community. and has nothing to do with the English language." It is not the name that this city is known [by] in every country on the planet. You only needed to check the wikilinks to see that this is an incorrect statement. What's more, it is the name by which it became known in English; the original Norse name would have been spelled and pronounced quite differently. Deb (talk) 18:24, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Reply: Please state one country that does not refer to the city by the name Swansea? Yes, the original Norse was pronounced differently, but the present modern-day name evolved in the local community and has nothing to do with the English. In Welsh, Bristol is known as Bristol and despite the fact that the name of that city evolved within the community, would you refer to Bristol as the Welsh name of the city, despite the Welsh having nothing to do with its evolution? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.2.106.42 (talk) 18:34, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In Welsh, Bristol is known as Bryste, which just goes to show what an expert you are. I suggested you look at the interwiki links to see what Swansea is called in other languages. Maybe you didn't understand what I meant. In Welsh and other Celtic languages (Irish, Breton, etc), Swansea is known as Abertawe. In Lithuanian, it is Svonsis. In Latvian, it's Svonzi. So, whilst it's true that most other languages use the English name, that doesn't alter the fact that it's the English name. It is the name given to Swansea by English speakers in the English language. Even the citation in the paragraph you are referring to actually calls it the "anglicized" name. Deb (talk) 18:49, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not pretending to be an expert. Please give dates and citations to note when the English started calling the city by the name Swansea and please offer evidence that the name did not evolve in the community itself. The Latvian/Lithuanian names are merely the way they pronounce the name of Swansea. Basically, as there was no historical trade between Swansea the Baltic states, it is not possible that they would have a different name for the city. In Chinese, it is called Suwansee, but that is just the way it sounds with a Chinese accent. It is not a different name. So, I repeat, please offer evidence that name Swansea was imposed by the English and did not naturally evolve within the community itself. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.2.106.42 (talk) 19:02, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand why you are having so much difficulty in grasping this. "Swansea" is the name given to the city by the English-speaking inhabitants. That makes it the English name, as opposed to the Welsh name. All the sources I can find say that it's the English name. If you can find a source that says it's not the English name, by all means cite it. Deb (talk) 19:07, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's a Norse name that evolved in the community. When we talk of an English name, it implies that the name was imposed by the English, as in say, Canton in China or Calcutta in India, or that the English name for the city is different to that which is used by the local inhabits, as, in say, Florence or Lisbon, which was not the case with Swansea. It was the original Norse name of the city that evolved among the inhabitants, irrespective of their mother tongue. However, I follow your logic that it was mostly tempered by English speakers who live in Swansea, but my point is that it is just the common name of of the city. To put it in another way, we would not call Bristol its English name to distinguish it from its Welsh or French title, but would refer to it as its 'modern name'. Likewise, Swansea is just the modern name of the city that has evolved over the centuries, and it is not a title that has been imposed by English speakers, such as Canton, Calcutta, or Florence. I apologize that I'm not getting my point over well. I do understand your logic, which you are explaining far better than I am mine.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.2.106.42 (talk) 19:17, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"When we talk of an English name, it implies that the name was imposed by the English"'. That is untrue - it implies that the name was used by speakers of the English language - not the same thing at all. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:50, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

At the end of the day, in a dispute like this, we normally go with what the sources say. Almost all the sources refer to "Swansea" as the English name. I haven't found one that calls it the "modern" name. Deb (talk) 07:39, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

But we need to trace the source. In the world of academics it is all too common for an article to present a name or title, which is then (sloppily) copied by others without checking the origins. To me, calling Swansea the English name is sloppy research. As I said, no one refers to Bristol as the English name of the city to contrast it with the name given it by the Welsh or the French. It is just the original name of the city that evolved over centuries to become the modern name - Bristol. Swansea is the same. Calling it the English name implies that it had a local name, and then the English imposed a new name on the area, as they did with Guangzhou (Canton) and Beijing (Peking). In such cases, it is perfectly reasonable to refer to Guangzhou as the name of city and Canton as its English name. Anyway, I do follow your logic and I appreciate your efforts to explain to me your reasons for insisting that Swansea be referred to as an English title, but I feel that it is confusing because it implies that, like Guangzhou, Bombay, Calcutta, Rangoon etc the city had a different name, and then the English arrived and imposed another one, which is not true. Instead, Swansea it is the original name of the city that evolved to present modern title within the community - as did, say, Bristol. Anyway, thanks for your explanations. I appreciate the time you have taken to explain your logic — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.2.106.42 (talk) 08:09, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody has a need to refer to Bristol as being the English name of that west of England city since it is a city in England where it's widely known that by far the most commonly spoken language is English. You might refer to that city having a Welsh name of 'Bryste' though (and interestingly that appears to be a Cymricisation of the earlier English version Brycgstow' before the dialectal 'L' got added)) . In Wales however, it's the case that people may well be expected to speak in either English or Welsh. If using English, the speaker would refer to Wales' second city as 'Swansea'. If using Welsh they would refer to that same city as 'Abertawe'. It seem reasonable to describe one as the English name i.e. used by those talking in English and to describe the other as Welsh i.e. used by those talking in Welsh. I don't see that it implies either name being 'imposed' upon the city - and I do think we should distinguish here between 'the English' (who to be fair, may be thought to have done a lot of 'imposing' over the years!) and 'English speakers'. The majority of people who live in Swansea now and in various times past, would have come into this latter category of 'English speaker', but would consider themselves to be Welsh. The examples cited in the Dictionary of the Place-names of Wales include earlier versions of Swansea than versions of Abertawe which appear to support Swansea being the 'original name' (though there's always the hazard of 'preservation bias' in these matters). What we don't have ready evidence for is the extent to which the two different names were used by different language communities over the centuries. It may well be that Welsh-speakers did refer to the place established by Norse settlers as Sveins-ey (or various variants) even as they continued to refer to other localities by names of more traditional Welsh origin - hence it is arguably both an English and a Welsh name in some sense. It's actually an interesting point which 119.2.106.42 (sorry - that sounds impersonal but all I have to go on without a user name!) has flagged, though not one to which we'll necessarily ever get a satisfactory answer. thanks Geopersona (talk) 13:32, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You raise good points, and, yes, people who refer to the city in Welsh would no doubt call it Abertawe, but that does not imply that Swansea is an English name. From my research, the name Abertawe does not appear until a number of centuries after the Norse name was coined and so we are to assume that until that time even the Welsh speakers would have used the Norse title and maybe had an influence on how the name involved, which would have increased in later centuries as more Welsh speakers moved to the town from rural areas. The name could even have been influenced by seafarers who travelled to Swansea from around the globe. We just don't know, but we do know that the name evolved within the city itself and was not imposed by a marching army from England or an edict from London. As for Bristol, well, yes, it is in England, but my point is that the name Bristol is the recognized name of the city, and any other name that it is given by the Welsh, French, or even as a nickname does not mean that the name Bristol needs to be qualified as being the English name. Swansea is also the recognized name, and the Welsh name came later and is not in common usage outside a few Welsh speaking areas. Anyway, my main point is that we cannot say that the English language was the main or only influence on the evolution the modern name Swansea, and there could have been a number influences. However, stating that it is the English name of the city can definitely create confusion and imply that perhaps the Welsh name was the original one and then later, as with names like Canton, Peking, Rangoon, Madras, Calcutta etc the English came along and imposed an English name on the city, which is not the case. In this respect, I feel that to merely refer to the title Swansea as the modern name avoids confusion and is accurate. Anyway, I enjoyed to read your ideas, which were sound and reasonable. Thank you for taking the time to reply to my comment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.2.106.42 (talk) 15:22, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Whether Nelson negated Welsh sovereignty over an above subjects sham[edit]

Why does Lord Nelson have to be here 203.13.0.66 (talk) 21:49, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Because he was awarded the Freedom of the City on 14 August 1802. He visited Swansea, which was then the copper capital of the world. "All Nelson’s ships were copper sheathed to prevent teredo worms from boring into the wooden hulls. This also increased ship speed and manoeuvrability. During his visit he thanked the copper workers of Swansea for their skill": [1]. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:20, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Flag[edit]

Hi Swanseans, just checking on the flag. There have been various recent edits of adding user-generated banner of arms to other articles (where a user creates a flag based on the coat of arms). I just want to ask whether the flag included in this article is actually used as a flag at all, and whether it is a flag or a banner of arms (a heraldic flag with no widespread use outside the council). I do not find any sources for this design used as the flag for Swansea. If no sources can be found it should be removed, however if there is picture evidence (on commons) of its use (like in the city centre by the council) it can be kept up. Many Thanks – DankJae (talk) 15:48, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The only website I have managed to find was this one which was resulted from this Google lens search for the image flag. I'm inclined to think this flag might have been user generated. If the flag is wrong, it should be removed: not every place has their own flag such as nearby Bristol at this moment. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 21:53, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Iggy the Swan, it says per your user page you're from Swansea, are you personally aware of the flag and noticed its use? Due to the lack of sources, it likely is not to be a recently adopted flag (it would've been reported by local news if it were), so whether you live in Swansea now or had in the past, have you noticed it? If those locally (at least on Wikipedia) do not recognise the flag, it would back up removing it, in addition to the lack of sources. But understandably looking at the city's banner of arms is probably not one's priority if they went to the city centre :) Many Thanks – DankJae (talk) 19:55, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
To be honest, I do not know that Swansea has a flag as I have not seen it before. The usage of that photo is not used often whereas the flag of Belfast does. As that flag is not used on many pages, it is probably not the right one. The flag column on this section does not have a reference so I am participating in that discussion to see if that column should be kept or not. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 20:50, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah the discussion over there is what prompted me to ask on these various articles whether their flag is accurate. Hope other Swanseans can also comment. – DankJae (talk) 22:34, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I can see your user name on there now, didn't realise that at first. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 20:31, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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