Talk:UK rap

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No Potter Payper?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.163.122.87 (talk) 14:56, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References[edit]

This is a good article, but it needs to be Wikified to attribute its sources. For example: Nowadays, British hip hop is enjoying its second coming - managing to be popular without "selling out" and innovative without being off-putting... Says who? I'll start work on tidying this up, but any help would be appreciated. Please don't remove the 'references boilerplate' as this helps alert other editors that it's in need of a little attention. See: Wikipedia: Citing Sources. Regards Escaper7 10:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

New Generation...?[edit]

A complete rewrite needs to be actioned as the focus under this heading talks more about UK grime than anything. Grime has its own page and little is mentioned of the traditional hip hop sounds coming out of the underground. I would also debate the influences cited for the 'new wave' of Brit-hop. To simply say 'hip-hop' is ill-defined to say the least. UK hip hop? US hip hop? Also the term "hip-hop" is used and abused by everyone and can cause mass confusion - many people still associate the term with mainstream gangster rap and hip-pop without any knowledge of the many sub-genres stemming off of it.

I agree, the "new generation", "next generation" sections are a bit odd sounding, and seem to be an extended list of new acts, I don't have enough expertise or time to assist with this, but it definitely needs to be radically overhauled. Escaper7 05:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, I would say grime shouldn't be on a 'hip-hop' page John 2235 (talk) 10:59, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The only (brief) mentions of grime on the page are relevant to the history of UK hip hop. It's important to mention UKHH being eclipsed by grime in the early 2000s, and also important to acknowledge grime opening the doors for popular UK HH acts in the early 2010s. The mentions of Skepta and Stormzy are in relation to their non-grime stuff. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 00:22, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Certainty over the official origins....[edit]

Did it really come out of British breakdancing and graffiti? this sounds all too similar to how the American scene developed and a bit too coincidental - almost crediting the UK for developing its own hip hop culture all by itself...which it didn't. Its fair to say that American Hip Hop culture was already well established before it rubbed off onto Britain in the 80's and its continued exports have continued to heavily influence the British hip hop music scene.


British hip hop was kick-started by the US scene, but as with the US, it wasn't a separate movement and grew almost organically out of the breakdance and graff scenes. Blade for example started out as a grafitti artist and bodypopper called Electron - "[Blade] I was given it by a friend who ended up dying on the underground doing graffiti and stuff and I kept the name out of respect for the person, my name used to be Electron back then, I was a body popper and breaker, so it kinda changed from there." [1] - as a youngster before getting into hip hop and rapping, and the Ruthless Rap Assassins page explains that Kermit also started out in a brerakdance crew called Broken Glass before becoming a rapper. There's no denying that the US scene created the British scene, but its also fair to say that in the UK, as in the US, it grew out of breakdancing and graf. Terrypin 11:27, 22 August 2006

The majority who think they understand what hip hop is...quite simply dont. i get irritated with pratts puttin grime into a catergory with uk hip hop, or claim grime is the uks answer to hip hop...its not, unless you mean at a pre-nursery school standards. i grew up on golden age hip hop, i didnt consume what was gettin marketed and pushed as hip hop, i explored and discovered artists like company flow, non phixion, mr.lif, peanut butter wolf, mark b & blade etc. i also love my old skool hip hop such as cold crush, stetsasonic, mantronix etc. i was originally into graffiti and breaking, which led me to emceeing and the dj side of things. so many people nowardays since the millenium mainly tend to think hip hop is about expressin how bad they are, or the clothes, gold and bling they rock, bitches/snitches/cadillac switches etc...bascially talentless played out yawn provoking babble!

Hip hop in the regions[edit]

I think it's useful to include information about regional hip-hop artists, but there are several inconsistencies in the links from this article. I think there should be a regional sub-section, but let's keep out the My Space links, "See Alsos" to non existent articles ie Manchester hip hop, and if there are to be separate articles they should be consistently merged. The fact that Skinnyman was born in Yorkshire, but actually grew up in London, means it's physically impossible to say that he's contributed to "Yorkshire hip hop" - he hasn't, is simply from that region. That's why I'm suggesting those article be merged with this one. Escaper7 10:59, 11 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to UK hip hop[edit]

An unregistered editor moved this page to UK hip hop, but failed to move the talk page which obviously causes serious problems. Please discuss the need for a move here on the talk pages first. Thanks. Escaper7 12:08, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Clean up: started[edit]

I've added this article to the list requiring a clean up. The Next Generation and New Generation sections are constantly being changed with a new name claiming the first Wikilink on a regular basis. Why was there a new and next generation? What prompted it? This article raises more questions than it answers and is now very long with a handful of sources incorrectly formatted. This is an important subject - it deserves a good rewrite to bring it up to standard. Escaper7 17:44, 1 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've got things moving a bit by starting on the references - I haven't got a lot of time to devote to this so any contributions welcomed, please discuss major changes first, as a courtesy to eds cleaning this up, and please follow the correct format of referencing as this is quite a long article to pick through and source. Regards. Escaper7 18:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

7 years on and this article still needs cleaning up! Much of it slips into an editorial style, with subjective claims like 'so and so released some excellent singles at the time.' The 'new generation' crap still needs sorting out, and the scene is bigger than just London - the article doesn't do enough to reflect this. 77.99.12.140 (talk) 15:13, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Scottish hip hop[edit]

Since this is British hip hop, and Scotland is part of Britain, shouldn't the Scottish hip hop article be merged with this? Sheriff Bernard 10:17, 25 November 2006 (UTC) Is there a notable rap scene in Scots? 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 17:36, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

HHC Top 50[edit]

There have been a few recent changes to the Top 50 in the article, replacing the artists in the listing, often for quite obscure artists. I don't have a copy of the article, but I suspect some people are using the list as an opportunity to get their name on Wikipedia - has anyone got a reliable online source for the list? I can't find one, and the only other options would be either a lock or to remove the section, both of which would be a bit extreme. JonStrines 08:59, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest, the list shouldn't be in the article anyway. It's not a definitive list, it's an editorial from one particular magazine and it's not written in an encyclopedic form. Yeanold Viskersenn 13:49, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't Hip Hop Connection have its own page? We could move it over to there where it might be more appropriate? JonStrines 09:02, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It would be more appropriate there, but I think lifting a list of 50 artists that their journos consider to be the best and putting the entire list in an article might not be appropriate - it's verging on infringing HHC's copyright. Yeanold Viskersenn 14:11, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Its nowhere near their copyright, but that's by the by: if its not right for wikipedia as a list, then it should go. Presumably the most appropriate mention would be on the individual artist/album pages, but not having a citable source I wouldn't want to put it in myself. If nobody objects in the next few days, I'll delete the list as unencyclopedic and unsourced: if there's an appropriate place, I'll try and insert a comment about the list's existence, since that can be sourced easily enough. JonStrines 14:54, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is a copyright issue here actually, because it is an editorial list. See Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2006 February 4:

"Under US case law, e.g. Eckes v. Card Prices Update, lists of items that are created entirely or primarily as a result of editorial opinion are subject to copyright protection. This explicitly excludes lists which are derived solely from facts, statistics, or polling data, as only opinion based lists are considered by the courts to have the requisite creativity required for copyright protection under US law. Consequently, the inclusion of the entirety of such a list solely for the purposes of adding it to Wikipedia will generally constitute a copyright infringment. Excerpts of such lists can be used in Wikipedia under the doctrine of fair use when they are associated with meaningful discussion of the contents of the list, but under typical circumstances, one should never reproduce the entirety of such a list."

SeveroTC 15:28, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I stand corrected: I'd forgotten that Wiki is based in the US. Have removed the list due to the copyright violation, and also because of the minor vandalism. JonStrines 09:29, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


There isn't much mention of Welsh hiphop[edit]

Apart from the small sentence on GLC, there isn't any info regarding welsh hiphop. As the page is 'Brtish hip hop', we could maybe have seperate paragraphs for music of welsh, scottish and irish origin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Feralvision (talk • contribs) 13:30, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Goldie lookin chain are not hip hop, they are a bunch of wankers who are piss taking it! anyway why do you nationalise it for, im a emcee from england, but i dont put myself in one catergory, i dont even like this country, thats why im a rapper. so i can moan about this capitalist mess, so why would i be patriotic and call myself uk hip hop, like im proud to come from this raping and pillaging fascist colonialist empire...never mind the bollocks heres me!!!!!!

'BRITHOP BOLLOCKS'[edit]

British hiphop has NEVER been called 'Brithop', what a load of bollocks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Feralvision (talk • contribs) 14:07, 2 February 2008 (UTC) I totally agree, its news to me if its called brithop. like i stated above, i am hip hop, dont catergorise me cos i happen to have been born here! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.210.71.63 (talk) 18:10, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah I've never heard it called Brithop - perhaps someone was confused with Britpop? Everyone I have ever spoken to about it or heard on the radio has called it UK Hip Hop and I think that should be the title of this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.14.116.151 (talk) 20:02, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"This is due to the fact that various ethnic groups in Britain tend to not live in segregated areas"[edit]

yeah right.... does this writer even live in Britain?

If you read 'Hesmondhalgh, D. & Melville, C. (2001) Urban Breakbeat Culture: Repercussions of Hip-Hop in the United Kingdom, In: Mitchell, T. ed. Global Noise, Rap and Hip-Hop outside the USA, Middletown, CT: Wesleyan University Press. pp 86-110.' you will see that in fact these comments are valid. There is a very large correlation between ethnic groups cohabiting in areas and the demographic make-up of the UK. However it is rare to find a region that is purely compiled of an ethnic groups. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chubbyhamster61 (talk • contribs) 16:10, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Genre or location?[edit]

It British Hip Hop a genre of its own, or a wider genre that is being done in Britain? Assuming that it is the British version of a wider genre, I have put it on the Template: UK music, which fits in with the way British classical music, jazz and rock are classified and gives this article a similar status to those. But I have deleted the info box from this article as it was for Hip Hop in general and not for British Hip Hop.

Also I have tried to give British Hip Hop some of the status it deserved by getting it into articles like Music of the United Kingdom (1980s), but am not an expert on this, so feel free to go there and check that my summary doesn't say anything really dumb.--Sabrebd (talk) 10:17, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As it was recently deleted, to be clear, the point of the box is to include this article in a series about major forms of British music. By appearing in the box it makes it easier for this article to be found. If you do not agree please discuss it here.--Sabrebd (talk) 12:20, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Multiple issues[edit]

The article has a large number of unreferenced assertions and is very poorly written. If anyone can help and has the time, please feel free to do so.--SabreBD (talk) 09:57, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

New styles of Hip-Hop[edit]

Can I write to include UK styles such as tinie tempahs style that ounds like jumpup which hasnt kicked in and gigg's "pecknarm sound" which is more like grime/bashment which is slowed down? Then there's grime-style too so... ARRRGRGGHHH!!! PECKY SOUND!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.70.181.1 (talk) 11:53, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

New styles of Hip-Hop[edit]

Can I write to include UK styles such as tinie tempahs style that ounds like jumpup which hasnt kicked in and gigg's "pecknarm sound" which is more like grime/bashment which is slowed down? Then there's grime-style too so... ARRRGRGGHHH!!! PECKY SOUND!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSJ5xF4Y2FM&feature=related <- Some peckysound http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIwUJ5XAIpE <-Grimesound


Thanks, J20 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.70.181.1 (talk) 11:56, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Malcolm Mclaren part should be rewritten[edit]

He was one of the first people to popularise Hip Hop worldwide. He was not a pop dabbler. He created a bona fide Hip Hop cut that is still being sampled to this day ....and it's video introduced all the four elements to the world. We should be proud Buffalo Girls could be considered the first British Hip Hop record, before "Buffalo Girls" - Britain and Europe were mostly unaware of breakdancing, graff and scratching.

UK Hip Hop v.s. British Hip Hop[edit]

Why isn't this called UK Hip Hop? The opening paragraph mentions Northern Ireland, which isn't part of Britain but is part of the UK. If we're including Northern Irish Hip Hop, surely 'UK Hip Hop' is a more appropriate article title? 77.99.12.140 (talk) 14:49, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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The Evasions and 'Wikka Rap' - first British rap record[edit]

Although a novelty record unlike those rap records from pop acts 'Wikka Rap' from 1981 came straight from the London underground dance scene (the jazz-funk scene as it was then) and was played by the djs who mattered in many of the underground clubs and was full of in jokes about the then dance scene. It even got played in similar clubs in America (who wouldn't have had a clue who Alan Whicker was).

How can an article on British hip hop unbelievably not mention Paul Hardcastle.[edit]

Not only responsible for such breakdance classics as 'Rain Forest' and' 'Forest Fire' amongst others but he had the first Hip Hop number 1 in England with '19' a record that was played for weeks on the London pirates before the commercial stations would have heard of it.

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Afrobashment[edit]

There needs to be an afrobashment/afrowave/afroswing section in the article. It's been an important part of the urban scene for a couple years. Madbrad200 (talk)

Requested move 22 September 2019[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus (closed by non-admin page mover) Sceptre (talk) 18:45, 15 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]


British hip hop → UK hip hop – British hip hop returns 105,000 search results on google. UK hip hop returns 1, 870, 000 search results. Such a substantial difference leads me to believe it may be worth changing the article name. Google trends also indicates UK hip hop is more popular. Madbrad200 (talk) 12:46, 22 September 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 19:27, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment It should be UK rap considering the beats in the biggest UK rap songs aren't exactly hip hop beats; they're trap, drill and grime influenced beats. 79.66.223.58 (talk) 20:12, 22 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Supporting move away from current, but I'd sooner move it to UK rap. Seems like the obvious common term to me. Lazz_R 22:27, 22 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment 'uk rap' and 'uk hip hop' have slightly different connotations. 'uk rap' as a term is used much less in reference to 2000s, 90s, 80s hip-hop as far as I can see. It has the potential to mislead what the scope of the page is meant to be, does 'uk rap' refer to any form of MC'ing (in which case, this page should include grime, garage, jungle, dnb, etc), or does it just refer to hip-hop and it's derivatives? 'uk hip hop' is more clear in my opinion. Drill and trap are considered to be subgenres of hip-hop. UK rap returns 728,000 results (more than 'British rap' if you're wondering which only has 80k). UK rap does beat UK hip hop on Google Trends by a large margin. It's also worth noting that 2019 has been the year of hip-hop beats being popular in the mainstream (Slowthai, Dave, Little Simz, Kano, etc). Madbrad200 (talk) 01:17, 23 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose unless there's a rescoping--"British" and "UK" aren't synonymous. Red Slash 23:41, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, yes they are, but I'd still oppose as the use of UK as an adjective should be strongly deprecated. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:47, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

First ever UK hip hop record appears incorrect[edit]

The first ever British hip hop tune released on record was "Christmas Rapping" by Dizzy Heights (Polydor, 1982) and not (contrary to popular belief) "London Bridge" by Newtrament (Jive Records, 1983)

This is what wikipedia currently claims, however an earlier record "Chip Shop Wrapping" by Allen & Blewitt was released in 1980.[1], April 18th.[2] Therefore, I'm inclined to believe we need to revise this a bit?

There's also 'The Barnsley Rap' released in 1981 which also predates the given examples.[3] Madbrad200 (talk) 16:14, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Looking back on 40 years since the first rap hit on the UK chart". www.officialcharts.com. Retrieved 2020-05-10.
  2. ^ Allen And Blewitt - Chip Shop Wrapping, retrieved 2020-05-10
  3. ^ Panter, Horace (2009-01-30). Ska'd for Life: A Personal Journey with The Specials. Pan Macmillan. ISBN 978-0-330-50821-6.


Possible source[edit]

Possibly useful source for this article here: https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/misunderstanding-of-drill-music-leading-to-unfair-convictions-says-justice/5107565.article?utm_source=gazette_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Drill+music+and+unfair+convictions+%7c+SFO+wrong+to+sack+solicitor+%7c+Budget+predictions_02%2f25%2f2021 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.71.217.122 (talk) 14:30, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 4 June 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Not many comments, but has already been relisted. Seems to be appropriate per WP:COMMONNAME. (non-admin closure) - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 15:32, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

British hip hop → UK rap – Widely known as "UK rap", almost never called "British hip hop", as opposed to "Hip hop" on the other side of the Atlantic. https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=uk%20rap,british%20rap,uk%20hip%20hop,british%20hip%20hop 90.255.15.152 (talk) 13:52, 4 June 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. >>> Extorc.talk 13:13, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Strong support per WP:COMMONNAME. 92.40.197.120 (talk) 12:06, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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