Talk:François Duvalier

RfC: Does material on Papa Doc's death and succession belong in the Section Death and Succession?

A Section entitled Death and succession. I submitted the following material to what is a rather sparse section:

On April 26, 1971, the N.Y. Times carried an extensive report on a news conference given by U.S. Ambassador Clinton E. Knox in Port-au-Prince in which he "denied the report that he had been at the presidential palace the night Dr. Duvalier died." American Embassy officials later confirmed that Mr. Knox was indeed called to the palace the night of Duvalier's death in order that he might be impressed by the orderly transfer of power and give the assurance of his presence to the new government. American officials weren't able to confirm the allegation in the Times that Mr. Knox wore at Papa Doc's funeral a Duvalierist lapel pin.

The transfer of power after the death of a dictator is usually problematical and frequently leads to domestic instability as competing factions vie for power. That's why, it seems, that someone created the section on Papa Doc's death to include information on the succession. The added materials explained, with solid documentation citing both the NYTimes and a former US Embassy official, that the United States government became directly involved in the succession of Papa Doc.

To place the material in another section, such as foreign relations, seems odd when it deals directly with the topic of succession.

JMartens (talk) 21:31, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Because it's not actually about the death and succession of Duvalier, it's about a foreign ambassador who MAY have observed that death so that his country would know about peaceful succession and be more likely to give aid to that country.

Furthermore, the truth of that whole section is debatable. The actual reference says that "Mr. Knox 'denied the report that he had been at the presidential palace the night Dr. Duvalier died'" but "My information, from an Embassy friend in a good position to know, is that Mr. Knox was indeed called to the palace the night of Duvalier's death." So it's an anonymous source, who may have spoken to George P. Clark, who then told the story to Louisville International Relations Club in 1971. Come to think of it, the whole thing is a little fishy and should maybe just come out.Flyte35 (talk) 23:45, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Have removed, given the sourcing.Flyte35 (talk) 17:38, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

References

Untitled

You guys should check out reference #2, the link goes to a forum that has nothing to do with the article

Death Squads

Umm... comparing this article to, say, Idi Amin, it seems like quite a whitewash, even considering NPOV. The fact that he created a voodoo death squad that worshiped him as a deity should probably be front and center. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.12.25.92 (talk) 04:15, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree 201.208.1.34 (talk) 08:48, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the first paragraph of the article does exactly that:

"François Duvalier (French pronunciation: ​[fʁɑ̃swa dyvalje]; 14 April 1907 – 21 April 1971), also known as ‘Papa Doc’ Duvalier, was the President of Haiti from 1957 to 1971. He opposed a military coup d'état in 1950 and was elected as President in 1957 on a populist and black nationalist platform. His rule, based on a purged military, a rural militia known as the Tonton Macoute, and the use of a personality cult, resulted in the murder of an estimated 30,000 Haitians and the exile of many more."

Did one of you (or someone else, acting in response to your request) make the references to les Tontons Macoutes and his personality cult? Good work, if you did.

It's not required, but I find it helpful, to note it here in the Talk page when one's made a change in response to a discussion here. loupgarous (talk) 14:05, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Papa Doc and America

The article seems to omit any notice of contact of Papa Doc with americans. As I know he served in american army as a member of sanitary mission from 1932 till 1934 and from 1940 till 1944. Also he was studying in Michigan state university from 1944 till ?. Any confirmations/objections to this information?

Is there a source? This article seems not to have any citations or references, a basic bio would be a good start. Stan 00:00, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The biography I have cited is printed in russian [1]. The information about Duvalier having attended Michigan University and about his work as an assistant of US medical mission 1943-1946 has some confirmation through Googling ([2] and [3]). May be some further investigation is necessary.--Begemotv2718 02:25, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC) I can translate this russian source if somebody feel this is necessary.--Begemotv2718 03:34, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Russian is OK to start, English is preferable of course, more people in the English WP will be able to use it. No need to translate, we trust you to make the article report what it says as accurately as possible. Stan 13:41, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I stumbled onto this article after I happened to StumbleUpon this timeline [4] (skip to 1959 for the mention of Papa Doc). I'm commenting because the timeline accuses the US Government of bolstering his regime, while the article has no mention of it. I don't have enough information to determine what is or isn't the truth in that respect, but I thought I'd mention it here. --Knuckle Bean 17:11, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

He attended Michigan for only a year, had to leave because he had a poor command of English. He worked with the medical mission and helped rid the country of a foot disease contracted by not wearing shoes. Can't think of the name of it as I do not have my notes in front of me right now.

I believe the above disease is yaws. Though I don't think "contracted by not wearing shoes"is the correct way to describe it. It's a bacterial disease, though not wearing shoes certainly wouldn't help.(Flyte35 (talk) 00:02, 6 February 2008 (UTC))

A picture would be nice

I was looking for a photo of a Papa Doc with this article, but there is none. Does anyone know of a good picture? Supermagle 18:30, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

There are many pictures of him available on the internet. I am fairly sure that there must be at least a couple of them in the public domain, though last time I checked, I was unable to locate any at Wikimedia Commons. Albert Wincentz 22:29, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Mother

Is there any verifiable evidence to substantiate the potentially defamatory comments about FD's mother ? If not, ought not this slur be deleted from the article ? Even if there is, ought not consideration be given as to the relevance of the matter to this entry ? --- SockpuppetSamuelson (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 09:18, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

The information about his mother is in the Elizabeth Abbott book, listed as reference #3. Such an obviously traumatic childhood is potentially important to explaining some of his character though this is certainly a debatable point.(Flyte35 (talk) 03:39, 21 April 2008 (UTC))

Catholic Church

"But in 1966, Duvalier managed to persuade the Vatican to allow him to nominate the Catholic hierarchy for Haiti" despite his earlier excommunication. Obviously, the Catholic church and Duvalier came to some sort of accommodation, probably financial. Any information on how much he paid them?

John Paul Parks (talk) 04:43, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

I believe the negotiations had more to do with the church's concern with Communism and Voodoo but I'm really not sure. I can't recall anything to indicate that Duvalier actually bribed the church.Flyte35 (talk) 06:29, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Concordat Watch has a useful article on the history of the Vatican's concordat with Haiti going back to the revolution.

Specifically:

In 1959, with his political opponents silenced, Duvalier set about taming the Church. His secret police, the Tonton Macoutes, invaded the Port-au-Prince cathedral during Sunday Mass, beat scores of people senseless, including priests at the altar, then arrested them.

Duvalier forcefully Haitianised the Roman Catholic Church. That both Africanized a heretofore European church, and made it pliant to his will. In 1959 he began expelling troublesome foreign priests. In November 1960, Duvalier expelled Port-au-Prince Archbishop François Poirier. Two months later, he expelled Rémy Augustin, Poirier’s replacement, and the country’s sole native bishop, thereby showing that concern for his personal power trumped noiriste principle.

The pope responded by excommunicating him.

Duvalier then expelled the Bishop of Gonaïves, who had been repressing expressions of Vodou in his diocese. In 1964, Duvalier expelled the entire Jesuit order. [19]

Not that the loss of the papal blessing seems to have caused Duvalier excessive worry. He proclaimed, “Bullets and machine guns, capable of daunting Duvalier do not exist. … I am already an immaterial being." A pro-government newspaper ran a montage on its front page, with a picture of Jesus Christ, His hands placed on the shoulders of Francois Duvalier, above the caption, “I have chosen him.” [20]

Yet in 1966, just two years after Duvalier had expelled the Jesuits, the Vatican struck a bargain with the dictator. In return for an end to repression of the Haitian Church (but not the Haitian people), the pope lifted the excommunication and presented Duvalier with one of his greatest victories. The 1966 concordat granted him power to nominate an indigenous hierarchy, the first ever in Haiti. “As a result, the archbishop, all six bishops and most other Church leaders in Haiti became Haitian, with loyalty to the Duvalier regime.” [21] It has been claimed by an expert on Haiti that “Duvalier even had Macoutes among the Catholic priests”. [22]

The concordat was a brilliant tactical move by the Vatican: it gave Duvalier enough control of the Haitian church to dampen his promotion of its Vodou rival. Naturally, it didn’t keep him from carrying out further bloodbaths — but after all, that’s not the purpose of a concordat."

This analysis isn't exactly NPOV, as you can tell. The site in general is pretty critical of the Roman Catholic Church on the whole issue of whether church-state concordats are even necessary, and their arguments are actually persuasive, if one-sided.

But it does confirm that Flyte35 was right; the 1966 concordat basically played to Duvalier's perceived need to control all religion in Haiti, by letting him nominate the entire hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church in Haiti (that was actually part of the 1860 Church-state concordat with Haiti, but in 1966 Duvalier intended to make it a meaningful part by only allowing his own Haitian nominees to be the new Church hierarchy).

This account is confirmed in brief by the US Department of the Army's Country Studies page "Haiti - Roman Catholicism":

"François Duvalier opposed the church more than any other Haitian president. He expelled the archbishop of Portau -Prince, the Jesuit order, and numerous priests between 1959 and 1961. In response to these moves, the Vatican excommunicated Duvalier. When relations with the church were restored in 1966, Duvalier prevailed. A Haitian archbishop was named for the first time, and the president gained the right to nominate bishops." loupgarous (talk) 13:23, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

"elected" -- dubious, needs to be explained

The election that brought him into power in the first place was not a free and fair election. Hardly the case. Paul Farmer's "The Uses of Haiti" details this in its brief examination of Haiti's modern history, and is thick with citations for that section; Peter Hallward's "Damming the Flood" is similarly informative. It is widely agreed that the first totally free and fair elections in Haiti were in 1990, which resulted in bringing Jean Bertrand Aristide to power, and he is widely considered to be Haiti's first democratically elected President. This needs to be clarified in the article. The election that brought Papa Doc to power is not taken seriously (it was rife with rigging and intimidation). Neither is the election of 1988 that brought Leslie Manigat to power, with the participation of 4% of the population. 50.74.192.11 (talk) 22:08, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

What about the period 1956-1957? and, Reference #4 is now a dead link

There seems to be a gap in the information reported in this article, between

"Political rise

In 1946 Duvalier aligned himself with President Dumarsais Estimé and was appointed Director General of the National Public Health Service. In 1949 he served as Minister of Health and Labor; however, when Gen. Paul Magloire ousted President Estimé in a coup d'état, Duvalier left the government and was forced into hiding until 1956, when an amnesty was declared.[9]"

and

"Presidency

Consolidation of power

After being sworn in on 22 October, Duvalier exiled most of the major supporters of Déjoie[5] and had a new constitution adopted in 1957 .[6]"

If no one else is interested in locating sources to document what Francois Duvalier did between returning to Haiti and being sworn in to the Presidency (one assumes he ran for the office and was elected), I'll do it.

It's just odd to see a gap like that in a recent Wikipedia article.

Also, reference #4,

http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/duvalier.html Heroes & Killers of the 20th Century

is now a dead link.

I found another source which supports a paragraph I wrote to describe the period between Duvalier's exile after the Maggiore coup d'etat and Duvalier's election to the Presidency AND the material in the article which the old reference #4 supported. The changes have been made, so that now the narrative of Duvalier's life from exile, through his re-entry into Haitian politics and election to the Presidency is complete again.

Furthermore, another editor located an archived copy of the old Reference #4 and reverted my edit above, leaving the new reference I'd located in the reflist, as it replaced that the reference to a book on Haitian music which only supported the article's account of Duvalier's life between his exile during the Maggiore regime and his swearing-in as President with anecdotal material with references to an actual biography of Francois Duvalier.

This sets right both of the issues I'd originally raised here. loupgarous (talk) 14:57, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

"Je suis le drapeau haïtien"

The claim that Duvalier claimed to be the Haitian flag seems dubious to me. A more likely reading of "je suis le drapeau haïtien" is "I follow the Haitian flag." I may be unaware of other evidence of this claim, of course, and would appreciate learning about it. If I overlooked anything in the footnotes, I apologize in advance. John FitzGerald (talk)

@John FitzGerald: without doing OR on this, it may be a mis-translation or a pun. Duvalier was an egomaniac though. Putting my French hat on, 'suis' sounds similar to 'suivre,' suivre being 'follow' conjugated to present tense. I suppose it is possible that it was deliberately ambiguous. 'Suivre' sounds very similar to 'suis' but with a vʁ at the end. Both translations are reasonable. Just a thought. Jip Orlando (talk) 14:03, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

@Jip Orlando:The first person singular of suivre is je suis. It is identical with je suis meaning I am. I suspect this was not a pun at all but just Duvalier wrapping himself in the flag, but as I said before definitive evidence is needed. For one thing, as you note, he was an egomaniac and the idea of his claiming to be the Haitian flag is plausible. For another, he was crazy. I fear this may forever remain a mystery. John FitzGerald (talk) 15:50, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Genocide perpetrator?

Duvalier is listed in the "Genocide perpetrators" category, but the article gives no information on what genocide his regime perpetrated. Could this be specified? For what it's worth, it's beyond doubt that he was a totalitarian dictator. --2A02:AB04:2C2:E300:7CFD:68EC:FB1C:F7FD (talk) 09:31, 23 January 2024 (UTC)