Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not

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Misuse of "Wikipedia is not a forum" on talk pages.[edit]

We should clarify that, although "not a forum" is an absolute in the articles, it applies on talk-pages for off topic content, but not for discussions about improving the article. I shall cite an example:

I read the article bats. I noticed that about disease-transmission to humans, it did not note that most disease-transmission to humans is because idiots harass bats. I was not certain how to fix it, so I asked for help on the talk-page.

On the talk-page, the topic was deleted citing "not a forum". This misapplication of "not a forum" holds back improving the article. Certainly, if I would have wrote in the article "idiots getting diseases from bats deserve it because they harass bats" that would be wrong, but is was a request on the talk-page about how to clarify that most disease-transmission is from bat-harassers.

Since I gave an example of when "not a forum" is not appropriate on talk-pages, I should give an example of when it is:

"Bats are cute and cuddly. Please reply in this thread about how much you love bats."

Since the above is clearly offtopic and cannot plausibly improve the article, it should be deleted. Its deletion would be appropriate use of "not a forum" on talk-pages.

TL;DR:

If a thread is on topic and aims to improve an article, it is allowable on talk-pages because it is constructive. If a thread is merely blabbering in a off topic nonconstructive way on the talk-page, it should be deleted under "not a forum". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.189.192.219 (talk) 10:03, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously it's a judgement call, and I've seen completely forum-ish contributions defended with brave claims of "oh, obviously this was intended to promote discussion that would lead to article improvement". If an editor is deleting valid talk page contribtions on spurious grounds that is a behavioural problem to be raised with them, in the first instance. Bon courage (talk) 10:10, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, ask the person who deleted the topic to actually explain why they did not consider it a proper talk page topic, without resorting to a shortcut. The best place to do this is on the talk page of the article, where other interested parties can give their opinions. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 12:19, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:SUPERHAT is relevant in such situations, I aver. jp×g🗯️ 10:20, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is the post in question that was removed citing "not a forum". Zefr (talk · contribs) removed it. While your post is a suggestion to change the article, it is mostly opinion. We would not add any of this per WP:OP, You could just post again, but start off with "The article needs a section on mistreatment of bats." Ultimately you will need to present reliable sources for anything added to the article. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 15:39, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Information Hazards[edit]

This page doesnt include any discussion of how Wikipedia is to treat Innformation Hazards, or Information that directly effects either the reader, another person(s) or something else in the world: An example on current procedure is with rare plants such as "Hyperion", the tallest living tree, whose exact coordinates being available (or more easily accessible) would encourage vandalism/damage through tourism as has already been the case: Information here is directly a hazard, if only due to people acting on it. Wikipedia does not typically censor itself in fear of actions of its readers (How much of chemistry, medicine and physics would need to be censored?), however it is also niave to believe that posting information is purely innocent, and that it has no consequence on the world. Regarding Wikipedias refusal to be a "battleground" of politics, this too is niave if taken absolutely: Wikipedia *cannot* avoid politics of some sort, and indeed is choosing a specific political position in regards to censorship.

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia: however, there is no encyclopedia on earth free from the political context surrounding its creation, and other encyclopedias, especially historically, would have been expected to do their "due diligence" in regards to their expected political obligations. An encyclopedia that published accurate how-tos of bomb and poison creation for example would be quite taboo in most of the world, even if "purely informative".

A more comprehensive position is needed by wikipedia on these issues. 90.247.229.178 (talk) 11:38, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We have an extremely comprehensive position, which is outlined at WP:NOTCENSORED -- which is that we do not do this. Your example -- that detailed instructions on how to make bombs would clearly be forbidden -- is specifically not true, as the article pipe bomb can demonstrate. Posting information is not a purely innocent act, but neither is obstructing it, and the latter has directly led to unspeakable evil on a number of occasions. jp×g🗯️ 08:20, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why is the exact location of the Hyperion tree repeatedly removed then? The other examples i know are also related to either ecology or things like doxxing individuals home addresses or names. How can doxxing be distinguished from free knowledge, by its already-accessability perhaps? 90.247.229.178 (talk) 19:14, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it can be argued that due to the nature of proliferation, the sharing of information has caused just as much evil as censorship, if not more: Every time someone shares fentanyl synthesis methodology and equipment knowledge to their seller friends "proliferation" is done with evil intent and consequence... or is it? Since this "evil" as judgement depends already on political views: Censorship being evil, in an instance, is also reliant on political views. It cant be escaped. 90.247.229.178 (talk) 19:17, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed addition to WP:NOTFILESTORAGE[edit]

I propose NOTFILESTOAGE be amended to align more with Commons' INUSE policy, with the following change:

Please upload only files that are used (or could be used) in encyclopedia articles or project pages; anything else (e.g., personal photos) will be deleted. Ideally, freely licensed files should be uploaded to Wikimedia Commons, where they can be linked from Wikipedia.

to

Please only locally upload files that are used (or could be used) in encyclopedia articles or project pages; anything else will be moved to Commons unless they meet the deletion policy. The use of a small number of personal images on a user page is permitted as long as the user is or was an active participant. Ideally, freely licensed files should be uploaded to Wikimedia Commons, where they can be linked from Wikipedia.

(differences in bold)

The main issue with the current NOTFILESTORAGE is that it is too narrow in scope. Someone could locally upload anything without a Wikipedia page, and NOTFILESTORAGE technically says "delete that" (though I admit this doesn't happen in practice). Something that is more common is that someone locally uploads (or uploaded in 2006) a user page image, then someone takes that to FFD. Depending on the closing admin, some may decide to "delete per WP:NOTFILESTORAGE" or "keep per c:COM:INUSE, move to Commons". This is not a theoretical problem, it has happened a few times, just search "INUSE" on the FFD archives. My proposal tries to eliminate this by recommending user page images be moved to Commons per above. Note there was a previous discussion on this matter, though that resulted in no consensus. —Matrix(!) {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 17:51, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If we add this, it needs to be clear that it is a small number of freely licensed personal images can be uploaded... Masem (t) 17:55, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that's pretty self explanatory, that all files uploaded to Wikipedia/Commons must be freely licenced, but there's no harm in adding it. —Matrix(!) {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 17:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pinging previous participants: @Iruka13, WhatamIdoing, SMcCandlish, Vaticidalprophet, and JPxG —Matrix(!) {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 17:11, 18 April 2024 (UTC) [reply]
It's not clear to me whether you intend to say that local (enwiki) uploads of a personal/user page images is acceptable, or if you intend to say that Commons uploads of personal/user page images is acceptable.
The comment about "freely licensed" has reminded me that there are risks associated with that. When this photo of a Wikipedia editor got transferred to Commons, it started appearing in advertisements. Perfectly legal, but maybe not what editors would really want to have happen to them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:45, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. Aside from that and other clarification suggestions, the general direction of this revision idea seems reasonable.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:47, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All photos on Wikipedia are already freely licenced (otherwise they can't be uploaded here). Yes there is the argument that we could be giving more attention to the image by moving it to Commons and categorising it, but anyone could do that on any website since the license is free. The uploader takes that risk by uploading the image in the first place. —Matrix(!) {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 16:16, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The English Wikipedia allows fair-use uploads, which are not freely licensed. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:16, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@WhatamIdoing: That's not relevant here - fair use files have to adhere to WP:NFCC, and one of the conditions is that they have to be used in an article. User pages don't count here. Yes, there are files that are free in the US but not their source country and hence can't be transferred to Commons, but that is a small minority of files that can be ignored (also see above thread). —Matrix(!) {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 09:11, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You wrote "All photos on Wikipedia are already freely licenced (otherwise they can't be uploaded here)". I have corrected that information, for the sake of anyone who might read it later and not have as complete an understanding as you do. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:01, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The word "locally" will create confusion. The rest is technically not bad, but cumbersome. .. mb "(e.g., personal photos (except photos of participants))"
It seems to me that in those isolated cases when they try to delete an image using NOTFILESTORAGE, you need to appeal to c:COM:EDUSE: if the file can be used for educational purposes, it should not be deleted. In cases where the file is nevertheless deleted, but you think that it shouldn’t, you should discuss this issue on the pages on file recovery (?)/dispute the result (?). — Ирука13 19:25, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not just photos of the participants themselves; we have a lot of photos of editors' pets. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:38, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
About the "except photos of participants" clause, please see my comment in response to Whatamidoing above. —Matrix(!) {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 15:48, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:INDISCRIMINATE list in Language education in the United Kingdom[edit]

Do you think Language education in the United Kingdom#Broadcasting is a WP:INDISCRIMINATE list? In my opinion, this list is a clear violation of "data should be put in context with explanations referenced to independent sources", as it has virtually no sources and very little context/explanation, but it seems like an IP editor has a different opinion (edit). If you agree that this list is WP:INDISCRIMINATE, would it be a good idea to extend the list of the examples with something related to lists of works? Or just add another shortcut to the first example in addition to WP:NOTPLOT? Bendegúz Ács (talk) 23:06, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like a clear case of IINFO to me. Regarding adding an example to the policy, I don't think that's necessary; it should be enough to cite IINFO and the meaning of the word 'indiscriminate'. Sunnya343 (talk) 16:19, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In what way is the list indiscriminate? It is explicitly a list of language education topics in the UK, which discriminates between items on that topic and items not on that topic. It also subdivides (discriminates) the topic into subtopics on specific applications. Clearly further discrimination is possible, and may be desirable. but I do not see an absence of discrimination. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 04:36, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe I've been getting NOTDIR and IINFO mixed up. NOTDIR seems to be applicable: Wikipedia is not a directory of everything in the universe that exists or has existed and Simple listings without contextual information showing encyclopedic merit. In this case we appear to have a list of every TV and radio program on language education in the UK, at least up to the 1990s. So sure, it's discriminate, just as a list of all McDonald's restaurants in the UK is discriminate. Sunnya343 (talk) 17:48, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, now that I read WP:NOTDIRECTORY (and WP:LISTCRITERIA), it indeed seems more applicable here. However, I do find it somewhat hard to distinguish between these two: "indiscriminate collection of information" vs. "directory of everything in the universe that exists or has existed". Perhaps the text could be updated to clarify the difference, for example: WP:NOTDIRECTORY applies to lists, while WP:INDISCRIMINATE applies to regular, paragraph-based content/prose. Bendegúz Ács (talk) 19:06, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
An "indiscriminate collection of information" would require the information to have no discernible logic to its inclusion, and a "directory of everything in the universe that exists or has existed" is pure hyperbole and obviously literally impossible, so neither are really useful advice. Yet they exist. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 13:09, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's true, WP:LISTCRITERIA gives much better advice:
"For example, all known species within a taxonomic family are relevant enough to include in a list of them, but List of Norwegian musicians would not be encyclopedically useful if it indiscriminately included every garage band mentioned in a local Norwegian newspaper. While notability is often a criterion for inclusion in overview lists of a broad subject, it may be too stringent for narrower lists; one of the functions of many lists on Wikipedia is providing an avenue for the retention of encyclopedic information that does not warrant separate articles, so common sense is required in establishing criteria for a list."
This is of course also somewhat vague, but that's because guidelines cannot account for every case. And using my common sense, the list in Language education in the United Kingdom#Broadcasting seems excessive, basically none of the items is notable enough by itself. Do you agree? Bendegúz Ács (talk) 09:21, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Wikipedia is Not Censored" needs to be changed or deleted[edit]

Even one of the co-founders of Wikipedia has pointed out it's clear bias, which is evident if you view the pages of anyone remotely political or any issue that is remotely political. It would be best to change the title to "What Wikipedia Censors" as the section is clearly misleading 2601:246:5A83:D090:8035:BFA6:C575:A041 (talk) 01:44, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are referring to Larry Sanger, who has been spectacularly wrong about online encyclopedias in general and Wikipedia in particular for 22 years. He is hardly a reliable source. As for bias, Wikipedia is certainly biased in favor of summarizing what reliable, independent sources say about various topics. Cullen328 (talk) 01:56, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do we not routinely suppress, alter, or delete objectionable material? Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 13:33, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you define "objectionable" to include "not properly supported by reliable sources", then sure. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:19, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I am also referring to a number of articles that are more smear pieces than neutral in tone. [[1]] Talk:It's_okay_to_be_white, [[2]], where there are clear and well articulated conversations in the chat that request a more neutral article, point out that it seems like a hit piece, and are rejected outright for the political slant.

That alone speaks to the extreme bias and an unwillingness to even change the articles for neutrality. And those are just three that I found, there are many more, it is endemic to nearly every right or center figure and not at all present in the other side, where most of the articles sing praise rather than neutrality.

With the clear divide, Wikipedia IS censored and does NOT have a neutral bias at all, but rather, as evident from the talk pages here, is an extremely bias source that actively blocks (again look at the talk pages) anyone that is not of the same bias as the mods here 2601:246:5A83:D090:9581:1645:55E8:7756 (talk) 00:41, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, even if you look at the discussions in talk, when presented with multiple sources from mainstream media on the center and right (seen the most in the logs of example one) you see the moderators picking a single left wing source rather than allowing for the article to be changed to a neutral tone, or edited out altogether, and in some instances you can see parts of articles that are favorable removed because the news articles from the NYP, Fox, the Daily Mail, SCNR, and many others are considered "unreliable" and "bias" for virtue of lacking a left wing bias to keep with the slanderous tone of the wikipedia article. Where as Politico, The Intercept, and The Hill in the talk section of articles are either accepted or rejected as invalid sources on the basis of if they support the bias in wikipedia or counter it in a request for a neutral tone.

The talk sections on wikipedia alone are proof of censorship and bias by the moderators here 2601:246:5A83:D090:9581:1645:55E8:7756 (talk) 00:56, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is not so easy. 10-15 years ago I used to edit articles on the Ukraine. Some of the Ukrainian nationalist editors accused me of being a Russian nationalist (one even called me a Putinist). Some of the Russian nationalist editors accused me of being a Ukrainian nationalist. They cannot both have been right.-- Toddy1 (talk) 01:30, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We reject Daily Mail and Fox and those other sources because they have shown to make false claims in their "factual news reporting" and stand by them (that is, they do no redact information if they they learn the information was wrong or falsified). They fail to meet our definition of reliable sources. This tends to be a problem with far-from-center right leaning sources, since they also tend to prescribe to things like medical misinformation and climate change denial. We do have sources that are right-leaning that we consider reliable, like the Wall Street Journal, but even there, their editorial board is known to be farther right than what they normally publish. We also have far-left sources that we do not consider reliable for the same problems as the far-right ones - they publish misinformation without any concern towards editorial oversight.
Perhaps we do need to state that we do not censor information when it is supported by reliable sources. Masem (t) 01:29, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, because we needn't play word games to appease strident ideologues by defining "censorship" in the broadest possible way. If we say any dynamic where someone doesn't get to what they may say otherwise as a form of censorship, then the idea is absurd. We would have to cherrypick what forms of censorship we ignore as to not render speech or decision making itself impossible, as some ideas or speech inherently exclude or dampen others, either directly or through accretion of a toxic culture. It would be inane to worry too much about this milieu of thought-terminating nonsense. Remsense诉 01:45, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Case study on scope of NOTHOWTO: second opinion please?[edit]

There is a discussion at Talk:Diameter#Not manual on the scope of NOTHOWTO, as some experienced editors have rather divergent opinions on its scope. I would welcome a second opinion. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 17:50, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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