Talk:Tiramisu

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Australia

Why should there be any mention of of its status as a food fad in austrailia? Two16

You must be new around here. This is Wikipedia, where everything is encyclopedic; rumors, fads, lame interpretations, anything goes.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. "

The result of the debate was don't move, sadly enough. —Nightstallion (?) 11:38, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Tiramisu → Tiramisù – Proper spelling. Copied from the entry on the WP:RM page. --Fibonacci 06:24, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose. Maybe in Italian it's correct but not in English. LuiKhuntek 08:06, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. I'm a "pro-diacritic" in general, but Tiramisu entered English without the accent. Duja 16:24, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
• Opppose, this has a clear English usage, being "tiramisu". 132.205.45.110 21:56, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose per above. //MrD9 05:45, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
• Support — the stress is on the final syllable. — Gareth Hughes 17:18, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
• Opppose: the name in English does not have an accent mark. Jonathunder 20:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Correct name. —Nightstallion (?) 11:38, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Mascarpone cheese, or cream?

The article for some time has begun:

Tiramisu is an Italian dessert typically made from Lady Fingers, espresso coffee, mascarpone cheese, eggs, cream, sugar, marsala wine, and cocoa.

In this edit, the sentence was changed to:

Tiramisu is an Italian dessert typically made from Lady Fingers, espresso coffee, mascarpone cream, eggs, cream, sugar, marsala wine, and cocoa.

I reverted. My problems with saying mascarpone cream instead of mascarpone cheese are:

1. Neither this article nor mascarpone explain what the term mascarpone cream means. We do, on the other hand, link to the article which describes mascarpone as a cheese.
2. Mascarpone cream contains many of the other ingredients, and they are used in the tiramisù only via the mascarpone cream. So if we use the term mascarpone cream in this sentence, I think it would more precisely read:

   Tiramisu is an Italian dessert typically made from Lady Fingers, espresso coffee, mascarpone cream, and cocoa.

I think it's better for the reader to list the primal ingredients they are likely to already be familiar with—i.e., "mascarpone cheese, eggs, cream, sugar, marsala wine". Thoughts? --TreyHarris 16:06, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Mascarpone cream contains mascarpone cheese and whipping cream, this is what is used in tiramisu and many other italian desserts, not pure mascarpone cheese. Ask any pasty chef in the world. Your proposal would be like saying spaghetti and meatballs is typically made from flour, eggs, and meatballs. --NEMT 17:48, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not denying that tiramisù contains mascarpone cream—I make tiramisù, I know what's in it. But mascarpone cream is not just mascarpone and cream. Mascarpone cream contains mascarpone cheese, whipped cream (not just "whipping" cream), and zabaglione, which in turn contains marsala, eggs, and sugar.

"Your proposal would be like saying spaghetti and meatballs is typically made from flour, eggs, and meatballs." First off, it's not my "proposal"—this language has been stable in this article for almost five years. You're the one who wants to change it; you have the "proposal", not me. Secondly, the difference is that there's an article on "spaghetti", and "spaghetti" is a well-known term to the general English-speaking public. There's no article at mascarpone cream, and if you ask a random English speaker what it means, they're not going to be able to describe it.

I would say that if you'd like to write an article on mascarpone cream, I'd drop my objections to changing the sentence to #2 above. (But not #1—there's no reason to repeat eggs and sugar and Marsala.) But I'm not sure that mascarpone cream meets notability requirements for an article to itself (which is wrapped up in the whole reason I oppose this change). However, if you want to try creating a mascarpone cream article, go ahead. --TreyHarris 18:08, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

So why not have it say "...typically made from Lady Fingers, espresso coffee, mascarpone cream, and cocoa?" There isn't a pastry chef in the world who would respond to a customer asking the question "What's in Tiramisu besides the ladyfingers?" with "mascarpone cheese, eggs, cream, etc." he would just say "mascarpone cream." --NEMT 20:20, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Because this article isn't for an audience of pasty chefs (who would not only already know what mascarpone cream is, they'd know what tiramisù is, too). The audience is people who do not know, but want to know, what's in tiramisù. Telling them "ladyfingers and mascarpone cream" is not useful for that audience without defining mascarpone cream—if they know what mascarpone cream is, then they almost certainly know the most famous dish it is used in. --TreyHarris 22:05, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Good point, but why stop there? Let's just be as clear as possible and say it's made out of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen... --NEMT 22:11, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

As someone who isn't a chef but has made tiramisu, and as someone who hasnt been involved in this, I'm glad it was left as "mascarpone cheese". Of course if anyone seriously thinks that saying cheese instead of cream is one step away from describing tiramisu on an atomic level, let them come forward now or forever stay silent on the issue. 59.167.164.197 15:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

As a long-time home cook and former cooking teacher and food writer, I can't recall the last time (if ever) I heard anyone refer to mascarpone as anything but "mascarpone." No "cheese," no "cream," just "mascarpone." There really is no need to add either modifier to this article, as any recipe will give the specific list of ingredients and packages of the stuff are clearly labelled for anyone who is confused as to what to purchase. Zlama (talk) 09:05, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

That accent

If the decision was made to leave the page title as "tiramisu", a decision I agree with, by the way, why is "tiramisù" being used throughout the article?

Incidentally, to counter the arguments put by the people supporting leaving the accent on the English word, yes, the stress is certainly on the last syllable, and that means that an accent is necessary in Italian (otherwise the stress would be on the penultimate syllable), but English does not use accents to mark stressed syllables.

Furthermore, whereas tiramisù is the correct Italian name, English tends to drop accents when adopting and naturalising foreign words when they are not necessary to understanding. "Cafe" is widely seen instead of "café"; the diaereses formerly seen in "zoölogy" and "coördinate" have long since gone. It is helpful to write "résumé", however, to avoid confusion with the verb "resume". — Paul G 15:05, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

All accents now removed, except in the Italian usage of the word. — Paul G 15:17, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The intro

Quick question: does tiramisu really metaphorically mean "make me happy"? Or is the word you're looking for literally? Artiste-extraordinaire 05:08, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

No, it literally means "pull me up". ("Pick-me-up", as in the article, is close to literal, though not quite, but it has the advantage of conveying the idea better as an English idiom.) --Trovatore 06:29, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Type(s) of rum?

Does the recipe call for spiced or unspiced rum? 24.131.138.87 12:46, 17 July 2007 (UTC)Soyu Ewww - just the thought of spiced rum in this makes me feel queasy :-) Stick with the normal stuff. FlagSteward 12:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Dish history

I know it's very uncyclopedic, but I can assure you by personal experience that my mom made tiramisu at least since I can remember, that is the end of the Seventies... And since she's not a great inventor, I bet this wonderful masterpiec of our cuisine had at least some decades of history back then. Basil II 01:09, 2 November 2007 (CEST)

More authoritativly, Rick Stein says it originated in Italy in 1966 (in Venice, I think) Rick Stein: From Venice to Istanbul (BBC). Onanoff (talk) 09:50, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Move to Tiramisù?

Can we please move this article to the proper Italian spelling, since that's what we use in the lead? Alternatively we should use English spelling throughout. Thanks 83.67.217.254 (talk) 14:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

This was discussed above, and there is consensus not to use the accented spelling. Carl.bunderson (talk) 04:24, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Marsala does not belong

Tiramisu has nothing to do with zabaglione. Time to get our references right please. 83.67.217.254 (talk) 14:44, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm italian, and i've never seen any zabaglione on my tiramiù... --213.156.52.96 (talk) 23:15, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Same here, I'm Italian and there isn't any "zabaglione" in the Tiramisù -- Manuel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.45.40.36 (talk) 07:22, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

There is most definitely zabaglione in tiramisu. For one source, see Rose's Heavenly Cakes by Rose Levy Beranbaum. Or The Best International Recipe from America's Test Kitchen. There are certainly some simplified recipes out there, and many people substitute dark rum for marsala, but the original definitely was made with zabaglione.Patrick Colvin (talk) 05:12, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry but Carlo Campeol is more reliable than Rose Levy Beranbaum and there's no zabajone in the original recipe. ekerazha (talk) 19:55, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

For the correct, authentic, traditional ingredients, you need to go back in time to get closer to the original. Rose may be a goddess, but she often puts her own spin on things, as do most chefs. Citing her as an expert on an Italian recipe is just plain silly. That said, she could be on the right track. The recipe, whichever origin you prefer, was developed in an upscale Italian restaurant which probably would have used zabaglione as the "custard" portion. But don't cite a contemporary recipe as automatically correct because the cook is famous. And the less said about America's Test Kitchen, the better. Zlama (talk) 09:29, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

That is the same as saying it's normal to put pineapple on pizza just because americans invented the (quite disgusting and offensive) "hawaii pizza". TheLazza (talk) 10:43, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

I can't do a citation

I'm fed up with wikipedia for the evening, I am unable to add my cite properly for the ingredients. Yanaghihara, Dawn (December, 2007). "Perfecting Tiramisù". Cook's Illustrated. No. 89. pp. 20–21. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)CS1 maint: date and year (link)

There seems to be some confusion in thsi article's recipe. It looks like two different recipes mixed together. Notice, for instance, how the liquor is added twice and the lady fingers are assembled twice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.245.160.208 (talk) 03:10, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Origin and History

The section "Origin" should be merged into "History", avoiding duplication and preferably without unsourceable statements. 88.233.36.11 (talk) 11:15, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

'original recipe'

"The original recipe called for the following ingredients: Savoiardi biscuits, eggs, sugar, rum and cocoa. In the original recipe, there was no liquor [...]"

So did it include rum or not? 84.246.155.101 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 14:43, 26 January 2009 (UTC).

no, cognac... cognac is expensive, so brandy is supposed to be the alternative, though i would stick with rum for a better flavor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.195.233.157 (talk) 01:50, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Uncyclopedic

This whole article is very uncyclopedic, and should be removed. you cannot say you have no idea the origin of the dish, and then come back around and say the original ingredients dont have any liquor!!!!! what Italian older than 30 doesnt remember Tiramisu?!? Ridiculous. First of all, it wasnt a dish aimed at children, it was an erotic dish... 'pick me up', meaning I need some help for round two in the bed. What child do you want running around on a sugar and caffeine rush? What child is spoiled enough to have such a special desert created for them? rice pudding and shut your mouth. So that analysis on why their was no liquor is just ignorant. Its cognac people... the liquor is cognac. Nobody uses it because most restaurants are too cheap and cognac is expensive. Brandy is your unsavory alternative... wine? yuk! next, its mascropone cheese. just taste the difference in the dishes, and that should be obvious. besides, any old italian chef will tell you... 71.195.233.157 (talk) 01:48, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I do agree with some of this, it is not a child's dish, there was a brothel above "Le Beccherie" and the desert was named "pick me up" for the obvious reasons (so you people take children to brothels?). If I am not mistaking the name is also slang for "turn me on". grossetti 83.228.131.29 (talk) 19:59, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, this being Wikipedia, if you don't like it, fix it. I don't mean that flippantly. I agree that this article could do with a bit of love and research. I was amazed to find that Tiramisu is such a recent invention, but it does seem to be so. It's a curious story that deserves a good write up. If you have the time and inspiration to do that, that'd be great. If you make a start, I'm sure some of us will try and help. But please, try to make the piece encyclopaedic - for some reason this page attracts lots of people who think they know the only Tiramisu recipe and everybody else is wrong - reliable references are a good thing ;-) And for the record, I prefer cognac. I didn't realise there was any question about mascarpone? GyroMagician (talk) 00:49, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

There's a difference between being uncyclopedic and being unencyclopedic. --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 13:05, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

So you're here to help improve the article? GyroMagician (talk) 00:39, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

All of the "brothel" story is complete fantasy, without any reliable source. Moreover, all of the "original" recipes (which tend to be the older ones, of course) do not mention alcohol. TheLazza (talk) 10:53, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

I have made some revisions that should help address these issues. Any thoughts? Patrick Colvin (talk) 05:56, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Alcohol

Amongst a set of excellent edits, Patrick Colvin removed the reference to alcohol in the opening section. I put it back, because I always expect alcohol in Tiramisu, but I realise that I'm not even nearly a valid source ;-) So, we have two questions:

1. Should Tiramisu contain alcohol?
2. If it should, which one(s)?

I'm not asking for your personal opinion, even if your Italian great-great-great-great grandmother always made it that way - we need something approaching a reliable source. Yes, it is valid to say 'sometimes' or 'often', but we don't want to end up with a list of every type of booze that's ever entered a Tiramisu.

And BTW Patrick, thanks, the page is looking much better! GyroMagician (talk) 10:10, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

My copy of Larousse Gastronomique defines it including "spirits or liqueur". Where in the article ought this go? And not as much RS, but my Martha Stewart cookbook says liquor is optional; and my four recipes in Google Docs all view the liquor as mandatory. I have always perceived liquor as a defining component of the dish. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 21:19, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't totally sure about the opening paragraph. According to the sources I have found, it seems that liquor is mandatory in the cheese mixture, but not traditionally used with the coffee. So I left it out of the description because I wasn't sure how to include it without excess verbiage. If anyone has an idea, please go for it! As for which alcohol, sweet marsala is traditional (every italian source I could find was adamant on this point), but dark rum is a frequent substitute. And some people use just about any liquor you can think of. Patrick Colvin (talk) 23:11, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I've boldly changed it to something based on the source I have. Maybe it needs to be tweaked, but I changed it as little as possible while not saying anything the source doesn't say. The entry in Larousse is this: "Italian dessert invented during the 1970s, based on plain cake or a yeasted sweet bread soaked in spirits of liqueur and coffee, topped with a mascarpone mixture, sometimes containing beaten egg yolks lightened with whisked egg whites." carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 00:38, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

That's very interesting. I've never heard of a tiramisu (or anything resembling one) containing a yeasted bread. I would think it would be very tough and unpleasant. I wonder where larousse was getting their info? Patrick Colvin (talk) 07:13, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Okay. I've found some online sources saying some people make tiramisu with leftover panettone. Which is technically a bread. I'm not sure if this variation belongs in the intro. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Patrickcolvin (talk • contribs) 07:17, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I have boldly decided that your reference to bread is very interesting but as it is an uncommon variation, it does not belong in the introduction. I've moved it, along with the citation, to the preparation section. What do you think?Patrick Colvin (talk) 07:35, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Looks good to me, Patrick. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 13:19, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I like it. The whole article is looking good - well done. GyroMagician (talk) 14:34, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

In the original recipe there's not alcohol. The Italian article says that there's no alcohol in the original recipe [1]. Here [2] you can find a video (in Italian language) where the son of the woman who owned the restaurant where the Tiramisu was born describes the recipe... and there's no alcohol. Of course, you can add some Marsala, but there's no Marsala in the original recipe. ekerazha (talk) 19:17, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

New Yorker 1936

About the article on the new Yorker, if you see with attention the image of the page http://books.google.it/books?id=uConAQAAIAAJ&q=tiramisu&dq=tiramisu&hl=it&ei=M2d7Ts2fHNKM4gTt9MSrDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAA you can see it’s a review of an Italian restaurant in Brooklyn the Noodle Pudding. Is an actual restaurant and in the article there is the telephone number (718-623-3737) this is the actual number not the number in the 1936. More: result the restaurant is opened in 1994 or 1995. Could someone of New York confirm that? This question was object of an heavy discussion in the italian wikipedia too http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussione:Tiramisù

Post scriptum: sorry for my English --217.203.171.136 (talk) 17:14, 22 September 2011 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.203.171.136 (talk) 17:08, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Why bother polishing this turd?

Another shite article in this so-called encyclopedia. Incomplete sentences, poor research and organization, etc, etc, etc. Every article should be required to pass a basic editorial process before being published. Every proposed edit should be required to be approved by an editor. This experiment is a massive failure. ~ 72.16.18.113 (talk) 21:08, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Of course, as the Encyclopedia Anyone Can Edit, you could fix problems you find (see the edit button at the top right of the page), rather than complaining about them. But maybe you prefer to complain? GyroMagician (talk) 09:48, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Why so specific?

Does there need to be actual instructions for how to prepare this dish included in this entry? It's a level of detail that is unusual for food entries and seems like asking for trouble to me. Similar point re claims as to what the "original recipe" contained or did not contain. Most dishes, however famous, have variations, and the account of the origin of the dish doesn't seem to allow for claims to what the definitive version is. There are plenty of other problems (grammatical etc) with this entry, as others have commented. I would be happy to straighten some of them out, but something like removing or "vaguing" the preparation section is a big call - what do others think? Faff296 (talk) 05:27, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Why isn't the "s" pronounced as [z] since it's between two vowels? I know it's a compound word, but "chissà" is written with two "s" in order to prevent the pronunciation as [z]. --2.245.121.139 (talk) 13:14, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

There is no such thing as an "s" pronounced as [z] in Italian. If we want to say [z], we write "z". Italian is a "read as it's written" kind of language. TheLazza (talk) 11:06, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

"z" is pronounced as [ts] or [dz] in Italian. "s" is usually pronounced as [s], but it's [z] between vowels. The pronunciation for "casa" is [kaza]. The doubling of "s" in "chissà" is called "radoppiamento" in Italian. I wonder why this doesn't apply to "tiramisù". Italian has "letter to sound correspondence", but it's not read as it's written. You often can't hear double consonants. Moreover you can't decide if you use the Italian standard letter or rare consonants. How could I know that it's "yogurt" and not "jogurt" or "iogurt"? --2.245.173.139 (talk) 18:19, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Probably we are not referring at the same "zeta" sound. I tried to spell again "casa" and "chissà" and I noticed the slight vibration in "casa". Not that this is a Z, in Italian a Z would be much stronger. Doubling a consonant means that the letter is read "longer", not that it's different. "Tiramisù", "casa" and "chissà" all have an S, not a zeta. The slight different sound in Tiramisù comes from the following "u". In Italian, "su" is always read with a "pure" S sound, no matter what. Anyway, the difference is so small that most Italian people won't even notice it. It also changes between Italian regions. I don't understand your example with the word "yogurt". Neither Y nor J are Italian letters, and all of the three words you've written would read the same in my language. In particular, there is absolutely no difference between how you read "Y" and "I" in Italian. --TheLazza (talk) 19:08, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I forgot to mention... Apart from the fact that "su" is spelled the same everytime, another argument for this pronunciation is that "Tiramisu" is the bare act of joining two words, moreover the accent is put on the last letter. That's why we pronounce it that way. --TheLazza (talk) 19:14, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your input as a native speaker. Yes, "y" is not an Italian letter, but it's used for loanwords. "Yogurt" is still written with an "y". If you don't know that word and someone tells you to write "yogurt" in Italian, how would you know that you shouldn't use "i", but the letter "y", which isn't part of the alphabet. I was talking about the ambiguity because there are multiple possibilites for that sound, so you can't always tell how something is written. I know that doubling makes the consonant longer, but in languages where you don't differentiate it, it's hard to hear this and "radoppiamento" sometimes also happens by context. Maybe "casa" wasn't the best example. If this word doesn't have a real [z], which words have it? I don't mean how zeta is generally pronounced in Italian, I mean IPA [z]. Would chiesa or sbaglio be such examples? --2.245.173.139 (talk) 19:40, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

I'll join in. Your examples are all right, the "s" in chiesa and casa are pronounced as IPA [z]. Like TheLazza pointed out, because tiramisù is a compound word (tirami + su) that "s" is pronounced IPA [s] as if that su were a standalone word. - Cloverleaf II (talk) 10:29, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

As mentioned aboved, compound word often double the consonant because of radoppiamento like "chissà", "laggiù" and "lassù", the latter being a compound of "là" and "su". So there must be some other explanation. --2.245.212.79 (talk) 14:41, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

«"y" is not an Italian letter, but it's used for loanwords» Totally correct. «If you don't know that word and someone tells you to write "yogurt" in Italian» Honestly, I wouldn't know. If you tell me a foreign (non-Italian) word or a loanword, I can't be really sure... If I wanted to teach a child, I would say "yogurt con la ipsilon" ("yogurt with a y"). But if you tell me an Italian word which I don't know, almost surely I can write it down correctly, even if I don't know it. I need only to hear it and maybe know a couple of exceptions (which are likely less than ten) for words with the syllable "sce" vs. "scie".

Back on your example, yes I think you are correct about the IPA [z] in casa, chiesa and sbaglio (I'm not a linguist, just trying to understand and give some answer :P). If I say them loud, my mouth forms a [z]. If I whisper them, my mouth forms a [s]. I swear! I didn't know that but I just tried. That's a bit weird maybe, but it really is not that important. It's more a matter of pitch and accent maybe.

«compound word often double the consonant because of radoppiamento like "chissà", "laggiù" and "lassù"» Often, not every time. AFAIK mostly when both words have one syllable. There are indeed many examples in the opposite direction: pianoforte, lavasecco, apriporta, sottoscala, paradenti, etc.

There is also the concept of raddoppiamento fonosintattico which includes the pronunciation of words. According to the Treccani Encyclopedia it is related to the writing of compound words. Oh, yes, BTW you forgot a double in "raddoppiamento". Double consonants in Italian are tricky sometimes. --TheLazza (talk) 00:09, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

I guess you guys are talking about gemination or syntactic gemination here, which is a quite common phenomenon in Italian. As for the noun tiramisu, I think it just belongs to the category of multi-syllable words (e.g. pianoforte, lavasecco, apriporta, sottoscala, paradenti, etc.) which are not subject to gemination, that's why it features no double -s-. For us Italians it's not easy to explain such rules because they are not usually taught in public schools, we just apply them in everyday talk but we are often not aware of how they work; one should take diction classes to learn them for good, just like actors, journalists and the like do.--Teno85 (talk) 03:20, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I found the real explanation by looking at words like "mostrommi" in Italian poetry. Today it would be "mi mostrò". By putting "mi" at the end and making it one word, the "ò" in "mostrò" loses its graphic accent since it's no longer at the end of the word. It is, however, still stressed when pronouncing it. There is a rule that only after "parole tronche" gemination is required. This is not the case with "tìrami". --2.245.73.195 (talk) 12:56, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 June 2020

Luca.zentilin (talk) 08:36, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

in the History section,the following sentence has no basis and no sources: "Most accounts of the origin of tiramisu date its invention to the 1960s in the region of Veneto, Italy, at the restaurant" Le Beccherie "in Treviso."

in fact, according to several sources, the origin of the dessert is from the Friuli Venezia Giulia region. Here the links that prove it:

- (acknowledgment from the Italian ministry) https://www.italiaatavola.net/alimenti/dolci-e-gelato/2017/8/7/tiramisu-friuli-venezia-giulia-ministero-riconosce-due-varianti/51344/ - https://www.repubblica.it/sapori/2017/08/05/news/tiramisu_il_friuli_vince_il_rush_finale_sul_veneto_e_suo_il_dolce_traditional-172437819/ - (from "Repubblica" magazine) https://www.repubblica.it/sapori/2020/03/20/news/21_marzo_e_il_tiramisu_day-251535638/

so I ask you to modify the sentence with that form: "Most accounts of the origin of tiramisu date its invention to the 1950s in the region of Friuli Venezia Giulia, Italy, in the mountain areas between Udine and Gorizia"

@Macrakis: Perhaps you may want to take a look at this given your involvement in food origins. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 14:02, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. I don't think there's any way to determine whether "most accounts" give a certain story. Moreover, many of the given sources are not neutral, third-party sources. A restaurant claims to have invented it -- clearly not third-party or neutral. A regional newspaper claims it for its own region -- not neutral. Unless we can find better sources, the History section needs to remain skeptical about all claims. As for the "acknowledgment from the Italian ministry", that sort of promotion of supposedly regional specialties isn't terribly meaningful either. The history section could be rewritten to be more skeptical of its sources and more neutral in evaluating them, but for now, I've just change the first few words. --Macrakis (talk) 16:34, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

PS I find it ridiculous that a recipe which is only documented back to the 1970s, and which appears to be a restaurant invention, and not coming from local tradition, is being called "traditional", which completely devalues that concept. That said, I see a lot of articles on Wikipedia calling dishes traditional without any evidence that they emerged from some tradition.... --Macrakis (talk) 16:37, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Inventors - chef and wife of owner

This BBC article attributes the invention to "Chef Roberto Linguanotto" and the wife of the owner of Alle Beccherie. Starple (talk) 11:19, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

One BBC article really isn't definitive... --Macrakis (talk) 23:05, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

No, but it's repeated in multiple sources - [3], [4], [5], [6], etc., including Italian sources - [7], [8], etc. etc. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:53, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Those articles are almost identical, with the same anecdotes and the same quotes from the same people, so aren't really multiple sources.

Still, some of them do mention other claims. The Corriere della Sera mentions that Campeol "vigorously contested" the claim of the "Roma" restaurant in Tolmezzo; i.e. there is another claim. The Telegraph article mentions that the Padovanis found evidence of the dish already existing in the 1950s. What does seem to be agreed on is that the dish was made famous by Campeol.

It is a bit shocking that this article doesn't include anything from the Padovanis' research and book! The Italian article is much more complete. If I find some time, I'll work on this article. In any case, the Campeol story is just one of several. --Macrakis (talk) 14:33, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 October 2021

Aldo Campeol .. not Ado Campeol 2A01:CB1D:6DD:4300:984C:4CD8:E08C:FEB4 (talk) 20:03, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

 Done - FlightTime (open channel) 20:06, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

and....  Not done. The restaurant's official Facebook account here uses "Ado". Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:56, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

"Father of Tiramisu"

Can anyone find the phrase "father of tiramisu" used to describe Campeol from before his death?

The phrase "father of tiramisu" or "papà del tiramisu" has been repeated in the recent obituaries of Ado Campeol. As I mentioned above, all these obituaries sound like they originally come from the same source. In any case, I haven't been able to find instances of the phrase in English or in Italian referring to Campeol earlier than the obituaries. I did find a recipe published in 2013 which calls Roberto Linguanotto (not Ado Campeol) the "father of tiramisu" and refers to Linguanotto's web site, tiramesu.it (the dessert was originally called Tiramesù). Linguanotto's site is no longer live, but the archived copy does not call him the father of tiramisu.

Is this "father of tiramisu" pure invention by some newspaper writer in Treviso (or the restaurant's publicist)? --Macrakis (talk) 18:44, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by Joseph2302 (talk) 17:12, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that Italian restauranteur Ado Campeol owes his title father of tiramisu to a misstep in his kitchen on Christmas Eve? Source: https://www.ft.com/content/1185e6b5-554d-449e-9db7-4868655248fc

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Pending.
• Comment: Article is currently at AfD. If it survives, I would like to nominate it for a run on Christmas Eve (special occasion hook)

5x expanded by Ktin (talk). Self-nominated at 05:31, 10 November 2021 (UTC).

• Putting this DYK on hold, pending then outcome of the AfD. Also, will need to address the issue of whether or not he actually invented tiramisu, as this article contradicts the tiramisu article on who created it. Joseph2302 (talk) 15:11, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

• Sounds good. Thanks Joseph2302. I don't think the article says he "invented" the tiramisu, does it? If so, let's fix it. Ktin (talk) 15:51, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

(I'm new to the DYK process and inadvertently commented in the wrong place. Let me try again.)

I oppose this DYK for the following reasons:

• The idea that a mistake in the kitchen created a new dish is a hoary piece of culinary folklore, repeated for many dishes. The chef who is said to have created the recipe at Le Becchierie, Roberto Linguanotto, says "I put together some simple and well-known ingredients and tried to make the whole 'portionable': this is how this cake was born"[9] and the restaurant's own web site says that the recipe "emerged from a "long period of experimentation".[10] So not an accident. As Chris Crowley said in Grub Street:

"It's your typical food yarn about the magic of culinary mistakes, the sort that is supposed to convey accidental genius." (Chris Crowley, "RIP to the 'Father of Tiramisu'", Grub Street, November 1, 2021.)

• The origins of tiramisu are disputed, and Le Beccherie is just one possibility. (it:Tiramisù#Storia e origini If you don't read Italian, Google Translate does a pretty good job on this.)
• The title "father of tiramisu" or "papà del tiramisu" is first attributed to Campeol in his obituaries in October/November 2021. I have found no earlier source for it, and almost all the sources seem to derive from one original source -- maybe a local newspaper article? maybe the obituary put out by the family? maybe a publicist for the Beccherie restaurant? It looks as though there are dozens of newspaper article on Campeol, but they are all very similar, even including the peculiar statement that the family never patented the recipe. So they are not independent sources.
• The Christmas eve date doesn't appear in most sources, and the restaurant itself says that recipe "came to fruition sometime between 1971 and 1972".[11]

In summary, the invention of tiramisu may or may not have been invented in Campeol's restaurant, it may or may not have been invented on Christmas Eve, it was not accidental, and the title "father of tiramisu" appears to have been invented for his obituary, not before. --Macrakis (talk) 20:44, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

• Sorry, but the AfD has closed, and Ado Campeol is now a redirect to Tiramisu.  MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM  19:53, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Missing link on coffee

Can someone add a link on "coffee" in the infobox? The page is semi-protected so I can't add it. 209.237.105.194 (talk) 15:46, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Three words: "Tara" "Me" "Sue"

There are three words "Tara" "Me" "Sue". 24.148.76.83 (talk) 03:41, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Google translate lists the Italian for "pick me up" as "tirami su".--Srleffler (talk) 17:59, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

"True Tiramisu"

the whole statement about "these are not considered true Tiramisu" is unsourced and silly, especially when it then says these desserts more closely resemble trifle.

Unless we have some authority that can be cited then the statement should be removed, as they no more resemble a trifle than a tiramisu (in being a layered dessert), as applying the same sort of strict definitions on trifles leads to them requiring ladyfingers (soaked in sherry), fruit (fresh or in jelly), custard, then cream, in that order and any dessert not fitting that should surely just be "another layered dessert". 2A02:C7C:C4CD:A500:39E0:6A95:A253:18CE (talk) 11:51, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. I removed: "These, however, are not considered true Tiramisu as these variations only share the layered characteristic of Tiramisu; these examples more closely resemble variations of trifle." Expressions of opinion always require a source; Wikipedia does not express opinion in its own voice.--Srleffler (talk) 15:31, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

I note, though, that the article mentions an application for European Union Protected Status, which if granted would create an official definition for what could be called tiramisu, at least in Europe. The article does not say whether that status was granted.--Srleffler (talk) 15:33, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

"Expand Italian" and "Refimprove" templates

I propose the removal of the "Expand Italian" template and the addition of the "Refimprove" template; number of bytes of the Italian language Wikipedia page: 25,386 (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiramis%C3%B9), only 5,000 more (en.wiki: 20,209; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiramisu). As for references, it.wiki: 52 (while en.wiki: 37). JacktheBrown (talk) 11:38, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I removed the expand Italian template. I do not think refimprove is appropriate here. At a quick glance, the article appears to have a satisfactory number of references for the amount of text. More is always better, of course, but the refimprove tag should be reserved for articles that are significantly deficient in references.--Srleffler (talk) 19:51, 6 April 2024 (UTC)