Talk:Noir (TV series)

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Voice Actors and Episode List[edit]

I added to the character profiles the Japanese and English voice actors for the four main characters, since I noticed that information was missing. And at the request of someone on a Noir forum I also put an episode list; though some of the episode translations vary between the ADV versions and others, so I tried a happy medium on the more difficult ones. Feel free to edit them as necessary. --Katsuhagi 23:52, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why did you use {{Japanese episode list}} instead of {{List of Anime Ep TV}}? ^^ --Koveras ☭ 15:45, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There are a few places where you have a character highlighted to go somewhere, but it only goes to the top of the page. This is very incomplete, either give a description or remove the highlighted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.82.161.178 (talk) 06:32, 14 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Year it's set in[edit]

I remember seeing hard ecidence in the series confirming that it's set in the year 2009 - could somebody else confirm this? I also apologize if i borked anything - don't know much abut wiki yet.

I remember seeing that somewhere though I can't recall off the top of my head where. I'll do some poking around to see if I can dig it up. --Katsuhagi 23:52, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In episode four Rosalie Hammond's information is listed including her birthdate and current age. I'm almost positive that's where the proof of setting came from.

"Rosaly Hammond," actually, according to Mireille's laptop; I think the year if off by one in the calculation given above. She's 15 in the laptop dossier, and her birthday is August 2, 1994. The events of the story make it clear that she will celebrate her birthday in two days. She turned 15 on August 2, 2009; she'll turn 16 on August 2, 2010. That puts Kirika's late-night reading at July 31, or early in the morning on August 1, 2010.

External link edit?[edit]

Just curious, what was the reason for the last edit (chloe.taikoubou.net -> www.taikoubou.net/chloe)? As far as I can tell, they’re the same site. —Frungi 02:59, 10 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

They are the same site, on the same server. I guess reasoning behind the edit must have been something like this: "chloe. ... .net" is an alias for the actual location "www. ... /chloe". If the actual site disappears nothing can be done anyway, but if the alias disappears then we are referring to the actual location and therefore we don't have a problem. Disclaimer: I am not psychic. Shinobu 04:28, 8 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Corsican vs. French[edit]

Mirielle is FRENCH. The last time I checked, Corsica still was part of France. They may have their own language and culture separate from most of France, but so do the people of Alsace-Lorraine, Britanny, and Provence. That's like saying Quebecois aren't Canadians or Hawaiians aren't American becuause they have a distinct language and culture that is different from their mother countries.

I made a change. Does it read better now? --Dante Alighieri | Talk 08:50, Mar 25, 2004 (UTC)
Uh...actually, the story goes out of its way to say that Mireille is specifically Corsican (as opposed to being from Brittany or Anjou or whatever). I don't see what the big deal is: if someone is from Sicily, we understand that, by extension, they are also Italian, but saying that you are from Sicily contains extended connotations (e.g., La Cosa Nostra). Similarly, when I say I'm a Texan, that means that I'm also, technically American, but saying I'm from Texas often has additional connotations. RADICALBENDER★ 13:50, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Title of this show[edit]

The title of this show in the English language release is Noir, not NOIR. We try not to get involved in the weird, nonsensical casing that the Japanese are fond of and use the English language titles for the titles of these articles when they become licensed (when not yet licensed, we use the Japanese name, like Maria-sama ga Miteru or Kimi ga Nozomu Eien - when they're licensed and retitled, they'll be moved).

This is why the article for Kare Kano is officially at His and Her Circumstances and Tsubasa: RESERVoir CHRoNiCLE is at Tsubasa.

RADICALBENDER★ 12:59, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

But since the anime is made in Japan, then the English title given to it when it is licensed, is usually irrelevant. Rurouni Kenshin is a title much more fitting compared to Samurai X, does it not? User:68.238.76.43 15:26, 21 Mar 2006 (UTC)
I personally don't favour the all-caps title. There are lots of movies that use all-caps titles as a style element, but as far as I'm concerned that doesn't mean we have to follow suit. Regarding "RESERVoir CRoNiCLE" and the like: even more so. Anyway, we have Wikipedia:Manual of Style (ALL CAPS), so we'll stick with "Noir", thank you very much. Shinobu 21:27, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Tsubasa was moved @22-12-2005: [1]; RadicalBender has quit @09-03-2006. *insert melancholic remark here* Shinobu 13:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Images[edit]

Do we really need four seperate images for an article of this length? Pyrop 03:26, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, it seems a bit too much. The opening sequence screenshot and Kirika's pic seem good for the article, but maybe the other ones could be taken off. It'll just clutter the page. – Kaonashi 03:35, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Looking at the article, I thought I could make it lots cuter by adding a screenshot. At the end, I ended up adding four because I thought for fair use it was better to place more and more compressed images than one in truecolor lossless splendor, and having more images also gives a far more detailed idea of what the anime is like. So I went for the title, for the after opening sequence, for a random scene and for a character (Kirika Yumura), and took my time tweaking JPEG parameters in order to get small but good looking images. At the end, they add up 250k, and make the article lots nicer... but that's just my opinion. Maybe I'm too graphic, but I just think that one image is never quite enough to ilustrate a game (like KULT: The Temple of Flying Saucers which I wrote yesterday); and 3-4 is a decent minimum... but well, maybe that's just me :).Rvalles 11:36, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
I agree. Especially for something graphic, like a movie or a game, a picture says more than a thousand words can possibly hope to convey. An article on a movie without a few pictures won't tell a reader "what it's like". Shinobu 20:31, 11 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

2001?[edit]

Why does the first line say the series is from an Arthur C. Clarke novel? I don’t see any similarities, at least not from the summary here. --Frungi 30 June 2005 17:24 (UTC)

That's not right at all. It's from the year 2001. I made the appropriate change. - Teflon Don 1 July 2005 04:05 (UTC)
Wow, how did that happen? --Frungi 2 July 2005 02:45 (UTC)
It's a vandal doing it. This isn't the first time it has happened. Reverting the page back to the original article berore the vandalization happened. -Js2756 July 2, 2005 03:55 (UTC)

Poem[edit]

I've based it on Kirika's version, assuming it's something like:

Noir... so[re?]-wa inish[i]e-yori-no sadame-no na
sh[i-w]o ts[u]kasadoru f[u]tari-no otome
k[u]ro(k)1i o(~?)te-wa midorigo-no(?)
yaseraka-nar[u-w]o mamori-tamou
  1. If I imagined this k then it's a simple -i adjective, which would make sense. Couldn't find kuroki in the dictionary.

I hope that corresponds to this in kanji/kana:

ノワール... そは古よりの定めの名
死を司る二人の乙女
黒き御手は嬰児の
安らかなるを守り給う

Which would be something like:

Noir... it(nom.) antiquity-since(gen.) destiny(gen.) name
death(acc.) govern pair/two_people(gen.) virgin
black(adi.) (hon.)hand(nom.) infant(gen.)
peaceful-become[?](acc.) protection-grant

I have translated "two virgins" instead of *"virgins of a pair". I assumed 名 to be the predicate of そ and 乙女 to be subject.

Various other synonyms could be used as well. Or a more verbose version

Noir... it's the name of destiny/fate since a distant past (more in line with the French version)
The two virgins (in the article a "who" is present, but maybe I should've left it out) govern death
The black hands grant protection to the peace of the infants/new-borns/...

The French version (from the manuscript):

Noir... ce mot désigne depuis une époque lointaine le nom du destin
les deux vierges règnent sur la mort
Les mains noires protègent la paix des nouveaux-nes
The text goes on, but Kirika doesn't read the rest in the intro.

I've put les bold, because it would indicate that the poem should perhaps read the two virgins etc.

The folium that is shot to pieces in the intro shows a different wording however. I've indented the poem because that looks better; feel free to improve upon the translation or just post your suggestions on this talk page. Shinobu 14:21, 2 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently my poem-edit wasn't associated with my username. The edit occurred when Wikipedia started having server problems yersterday so that's probably the cause. Shinobu 19:50, 2 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

pome[edit]

i have a fasinaton for the pome but i cant seem to find the full vershon enywher can u help me people this is a wonderfull pome and i would like it if i could find or have one to copy i know i proble sond hopeless but pleas do help

According to the series, the poem originally was presumably in Old French or even Latin. Someone translated it to French (Langonel's Manuscript), the text is visible in the series. The Japanese translations are a concession to the Japanese audience; most of them presumably don't speak French. I haven't been able to find a full Japanese kanji+kana version anywhere. I also haven't looked into Chloe's and Mireille's versions. Shinobu 19:19, 11 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Danse Macabre[edit]

This series has the aspect of a Danse Macabre--that's what I always think when I hear salva nos and the bodies start falling. I'm not sure it's appropriate to mention this very personal opinion; on the other hand, it might be the intention of the creator in the first place... Demia 10:55, 21 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

My personal opinion is that an encyclopaedia should document rather than interpret. I think even the Foucault's Pendulum reference shouldn't be there really. Not only because the two works only seem to have a shared premise, but because unless the artists themselves explicitly state that there is a connection we shouldn't assume it's there. I think its against our policy on original research. In any case, I think there is even more symbolic in the music-underlain gunfights than just the Danse Macabre, but it would be original research so it doesn't belog here. Shinobu 16:57, 21 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yuumura or Yūmura?[edit]

I know the version with to u's scrolls by, but in Wikipedia we usually use revised Hepburn: ū. What should we do? Shinobu 10:09, 25 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yūmura is the one that should be used, according to WP:MOS-JA. --日本穣 01:07, 26 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You're wrong, WP:MOS-JA says: Names should be romanized according to common usage, which includes unconventional romanizations by licensees (e.g., Devil Hunter Yohko and Tenjho Tenge). Kirika is listed in the official English website as "Yuumura", therefore it has to be romanized as such in this article.Kazu-kun 04:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OST 3 / Aime-moi[edit]

PS: I'm french and very bad in english, please excuse me. (to be very bad in english, not to be french)

1- the name of the OST is 「blanc dans NOIR ～黒の中の白～」(see: http://www.jvcmusic.co.jp/m-serve/tv/noir/music.html) in romaji: 「blanc dans NOIR ～kuro no naka no shiro～」(the two means "white in black", the first in french, the second in japanese)

2- does "Em More" mean anything in english? (I've already said that I'm very bad in english, so I really don't know) Because the good transcription of "エム・モア" (the japanese title) should be "Emu moa" which has exactly the same prononciation that "Aime-moi" in french, which means "love me". Frantz lec 01:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I always thought it was "aime-moi". Shinobu 12:08, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Original Soundtrack and Episode List??[edit]

I don't think this stuff is relevant enough for the article, i think it makes an unnecesary visual mess out of the article, i'd move them to individual articles at least.

Episode list is fine as long as we don't add episode summaries and screen caps for every episode. OST list is definetly needed since the music is really important in a series as complex as Noir. Also I'm looking at the article rightnow and I don't think it's messed up at all. Kazu-kun 20:57, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rape[edit]

About it, I put Noir in the Category:Rape anime and manga because one of the characters suffers a rape in the story. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Animefanatico (talk • contribs)

Is that what the category is about? It seems as a hentai category, altough Elfen Lied stands out. -- Kl4m Talk Contrib 02:40, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't get what this cat is all about but by the looks of it, it's for anime that contain rape as a central plot element, not a single character who got raped offscreen in a flashback in a single episode. I support Kl4m on the issue. --Koveras ☭ 05:29, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Noir is not a rape anime. Rape anime and manga are a specific genre that deals heavily in rape, S&M sex and other like topics. Having a character get raped in the course of a drama does not make a show or movie "rape anime." Rape anime is literally about rape. Typically the plot of such shows involves a rapist, often in the role of hero. See Rapeman. It's a manga that, if not for the fact that it's more a dark comedy than hentai, would be rape manga. ask123 (talk) 20:37, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OST - Musical Artists[edit]

Is there any information available about any of the artists performing the tracks? I'm particularly interested in the singers in Maze but I'm sure there would be wider interest.

Fair use rationale for Image:Noir poster.jpg[edit]

Image:Noir poster.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 14:54, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OST Images[edit]

I don't know if anyone is still watching this page but I'll ask anyway, would images from the cover of the OST booklets (I don't know how else to describe them... it's what you see when you look at the CD case) be useful for the OST section? I have the American release of OST 1 & 2 and the Japanese version of Blanc dans Noir (if that matters). I ask because I wasn’t sure if they would take up to much space/be unnecessary. --Tyrfing (talk) 21:10, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Original research[edit]

I've deleted some stuff for the following reasons. An intellectual product like an anime draws no inspiration or influence from anything unless the creator says so, if they did say it, get the sources, thats why theres rules about using sources, so opionated people don't make claims that might be logical or probable but have no real proof. Amnesia is a common part of the plot in alot of work, picking one specific novel such as the Bourne Identity just shows that whoever wrote this bit watches too many spy and hitman movies. Again, just because something looks like its inspired from something else, doesn't make it so, without proof you are making it up and supposing it real. They may have been inspired by Luc and Chow, or they may of been inspired by the things that inspired them, or they may of made the idea independtly, obviously not impossible, the "inspiration" did it, why can't others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 09:06, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I made a few deletions. It was for original research and personal assessments and opinions.

First, I deleted the two comparisons to the Luke Besson movies Leon and La Femme Nikita. One of the references used a cherrypicked citation to justify its being there. The fact of the matter is that some may say the show is reminiscent of Leon, but others may say it’s reminiscent of Blood: The Last Vampire and yet others may say it’s like Avalon or Azumi. Everyone has their own idea of what this show is "like". Therefore, it's not OK to make a comparison, citing one particular article and making it seem as if that is the opinion of many critics. If there's a consensus on that opinion among the legitimate critical community, then you must provide more citations.

Second, I deleted the section called "Influences." This is Wikipedia, not a fansite. It is not permissible to include original research, personal assessments, opinions, judgments, etc. And almost all "Influences" sections contain content that's 100% in violation. Do not make presumptions on what you ‘‘think’’ the influences or themes of the show are. Wikipedia is not a forum for you to write a personal essay on what you think the themes are. It’s also not a forum for essays on what you think the influences are. Adding sentences on influences is only OK if it’s sourced from an interview with the creator, writer, director, etc. Otherwise, those kinds of additions are merely personal judgments. It doesn’t matter how “obvious” it may seem to you that a certain influence exists. If you are coming to that realization on your own, it’s original research and no allowed. I’ve seen these sections in articles for other movies and TV shows (particularly anime & TV thanks to rabid fans), but those articles are in violation of the guidelines too. So just because other articles do it doesn’t mean it’s OK to do here.

Third, I rewrote the “Design” section because it was also filled with original research and presumptions. Also, I changed the title of that section to “Bloodlessness.” It’s against guidelines to make guesses and present them as facts, which is what the section was doing before I changed it. In it's new form, there is still an unsourced claim, but it has a "fact" tag next to it.

Fourth, I deleted the sentence in the “Reception” section that claimed the show was “well-received” outside Japan due to “its unusual plots and stories which have strong European style and flavor.” That’s a guess, a presumption that's unsourced and written in a personally invested tone. That's against guidelines too.

Please, please don’t edit this article with any information that has not been sourced in reputable third-party publications. Also, do not cherry-pick info from a single publication and add it to the article as if it’s an opinion shared by ‘‘all’’ critics. Do not make personal assessments of the show or presumptions or guesses about things you don't really know—no opinions allowd whatsoever. Find sources first and then add the information.

Thank you all in advance for following guidelines. It makes Wikipedia a better, more reliable website. Cheers, ask123 (talk) 20:24, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reviews to be summarized[edit]

These two links were placed in the external links section. They are not suitable as external links, but may be useful to expand the reception section. For that reason, I'm parking them here instead of simply removing them. Goodraise 06:00, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Should the episode list be merged in?[edit]

Is there any real reason why the article was merged into the main one? to me the list of episodes article looked well sourced and a good stand alone. It appears to be a bold merge as there was no discussion of a merger. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:08, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not really sure what was up with that. I wouldn't expect Goodraise to do that so I guess we'll have to wait and here.陣内Jinnai 04:30, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I was being bold. Though I'm not sure how that would matter. As for reasons, you seem to have things backwards: Articles have to justify their existence. If they can't, they are merged or deleted. Here we have two articles with virtually the same topic, which, if merged, would not result in an excessively long page. If you see "any real reason" to keep them separate, I'd be delighted to hear it. Goodraise 04:45, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The episode article is well sourced as for the character page after seeing it in it's former form I agree that it was a good merge but the list of episodes I just did not understand, the outcome of the merge slams the list of the episodes and the DVD releases right into the articloe and if there is double info then that should be moved to it's proper place. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 05:51, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm aware of how well the list is sourced. After all, I added most (if not all) of the sources myself. But what does that matter? The presence of sources in general has (to the best of my knowledge) never been justification for a page's existence. And the sources present are not sufficient to satisfy the GNG.

From your wording ("slams"), I gather that you have some issue with the lists of episodes and releases being part of this article, but I can't really tell what that issue is. Would you care to clarify?

There is duplicate information between the articles, but not more than there should be per WP:SS. Not sure what you're getting at here. Goodraise 12:40, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The episode list seems like an adequately sourced and valid spinoff, of a length that is better served in its own article. I feel that splitting off these kinds of lists encourages more space in the article which can be filled with reception or something like it. --Malkinann (talk) 06:32, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Addressing your links/points in order: The sources are irrelevant, as I pointed out above. Making the word valid part of the link may serve your case, but it misrepresents WP:SS, which does not provide a way to determine which spin-offs should be considered valid, leaving the question as to how you came to that conclusion. WP:SIZE is an editing guideline (as opposed to a content or style guideline), which "contains an overview on issues related to article size". So, if you're trying to make a point with this link, it escapes me. And what did you link WP:SALAT for? SALAT is a section of Wikipedia:Manual of Style (stand-alone lists), arguing that we should limit the number of lists. You'll have to explain that to me.

The only thing in your reply (as far as I can tell) that could be considered an argument for leaving the list separate is (assuming I understood you correctly) your feeling that shorter articles encourage the addition of content. If you'll allow, I'll respond to that with a feeling of my own: That is only true for low hanging content, such as plot and trivia. Editors who are committed enough to be willing to do actual research, such as locating and reading reviews, will not be stopped from adding that kind of content by such a trivial obstacle as an elevated article size. Goodraise 12:40, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sources do matter - episode lists are considered to be valid spinoff articles, as they provide the medium-level of detail when a micro-level of detail (individual episodes) cannot be supported by sources. SIZE recommends that articles be kept close to 32 KB in length - very long articles are difficult to load and read. Just because it's an editing guideline doesn't make its point less true. SALAT encourages lists to a point - I feel that a list of episodes is a valid one, as it provides another level of detail for the reader. I feel that shorter articles and the use of daughter articles encourages the addition of content as a whole - not only "low-hanging" content, but any content. It provides space for people to see that 'hey, there's a whole episode list here, but there's not much of anything else'. WP:SIZE explains how an elevated article size can impact on an article, including exactly the issue I've just outlined - that a large article attracts less new content. --Malkinann (talk) 19:49, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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