Talk:Drag king

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Female bodied[edit]

Resolved

Whoever changed "female bodied" persons to "female identified" does not know too much about Drag Kings. Of those Kings I know (and that's quite a few) only the smallest minority is female identified. -- AlexR 18:26 30 Jun 2003 (UTC)

If that's the case then they're transgendered or transsexuals; drag kings are lesbians who do drag. Exploding Boy 14:07, Apr 11, 2004 (UTC)
I'm terribly sorry, but you are wrong. Many Drag Kings are transgendered and not female identified, but still call themselfes Drag Kings. In fact, some people define Drag Kings as "female bodied but not female identified" people; although I think that's carrying it a bit too far. Also please remember that some words have slightly different definitions in different places, although the one given covers most of Europe and North America. I checked, did you? -- AlexR 14:26, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I checked, but you're right; words do have different meanings in different places. Exploding Boy 14:28, Apr 11, 2004 (UTC)

I am a trans woman. As a genderqueer dyke, I sometimes like to perform as a drag king. As a MTF person, am I female-bodied? That is debatable. I am certainly female-identified.--142.166.101.192 17:25, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

That is not exactly the majority of drag kings; all kings I know (and that are quite a few) define as the one thing that drag kings have in common that they do not identify as women and/or females. So I think that this paragraph needs some rewording; after all, trans-people doing drag after transitioning are such a small minority that I wonder whether it is really appropriate to say something that does not apply for the vast majority of a group because it does apply to a very small minority; at least without explanation. And that's a transguy speaking who has two dresses in his wardrobe, too.
Oh, and BTW, do you think you could get yourself a username? Not even a mailadress is required, and it is a bit odd if one has to call people "142". -- AlexR 01:15, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I think that "Drag" includes those that mask their identified gender, hence the delineation of Bio-Queens and Kings. Clearly one may be born a man, transition to female, and then perform in drag as a male. However, if you identify as a woman, and perform as a woman, you are a Bio-Femme. I do think that the origins of this term began prior to the increased popularity of gender transitioning, but can be applied to women that were not necessarily born as women. ~Kat AKA J.J. Cox

A drag king, just like drag queens can be any gender or sexuality and the article should reflect that. having stated that the article should also address some of the unique meanings of drag kings in reference to dyke, trans and the larger LGBT cultures. Benjiboi 23:18, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

POV[edit]

Resolved

This article makes some bold statements about what is and is not a "drag king" without citations. This, and the above discussion, show that the underlying bias needs to be removed. - brenneman{L} 00:28, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion was two years ago. The issue seems to have been worked out since then, and the definition of "drag king" currently in the article seems pretty neutral and inclusive to me. I don't see any "bold statements" that would require citations, and I don't see any need to label the article as POV. If you have some specific problem with the definition given in the article then please feel free to explain, but for now I am removing the POV tag. CKarnstein 05:36, 14 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

AtKM[edit]

Resolved

There way quite a bit of material for "All the King's Men" so I trimmed it a little bit. - brenneman{L} 00:28, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Drag King history[edit]

Greetings. I noticed some items like Elvis Herselvis, Lea Delaria and the 1st Drag King Junior Contest are missing. There is a fairly comprehensive Drag King timeline online at [1] that s a great read, if nothing else, but gives an insider's chronicle to touchstones of interest to this article. I don't have time right now but a researched version using some of that history would greatly help the article and potentially grow into one on it's own. Benjiboi 23:25, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

International Drag King Community Extravaganza (IDKE)[edit]

International Drag King Community Extravaganza (IDKE) needs it's own section and links to each year's contest, also more photos from any kings would be helpful. Benjiboi 20:28, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

External Links[edit]

The external links need to be cleaned up a bit. Given the article's subject I think most of them are valid and basically non-commercial, however, for those looking to actually learn more it's helpful to separate which links are for actual resources/support maybe those could saty under "External Links" and all the rest to list under something like "Links to Current Drag Kings."

I've done some article clean-up including the links section removing all the personal ones and sorting the rest into resources and king groups. Benjiboi 22:20, 29 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further, I'm concerned about the unencyclopedic nature of the links under "Drag King groups" - Wikipedia is not a directory of performers, and other articles do not have such links. Why does drag king? --David Shankbone 17:58, 4 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My initial goal was to stop every performer from adding their link and slow down the tide as it were. If we are now going to throw out all the groups links then we should provide a reasonable alternative like we link to a good drag king resource which has a list of king groups, if you want to be added to the list that's the place to do it. Benjiboi 00:59, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
On further reflection I feel the way we currently have it is fine for now. People looking for information on drag kings will find the article to be a good starting resource and the list of king groups is not terribly large nor would I expect it to grow exponentially. I feel an alternative would to grow a section about king groups and try to sort out which ones are notable for inclusion. I feel that's a ways off. Benjiboi 14:28, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

All of the International Drag King Extravaganza links were null with their domains up for sale. I have removed them. --Anonyfish —Preceding undated comment added 21:13, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Drag King Buddy Kent[edit]

"Buddy Kent was still gorgeous at age 70. She was even cuter in the 1940s, when she played the Club 181, located at 181 Second Avenue on the Lower East Side of Manhattan, and the Moroccan Village, on 8th Street in Greenwich Village. Back the, downtown nightclubs like these, under the protection of the New York mob, featured shows with gay girls and boys performing in drag. * * * “It was home,” Buddy replied, “and we had the best protection in the world from the Mafia. They ran everything.”" The above is a report from a New York newspaper and may be worth researching and incorporating. Benjiboi 00:05, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Drag King Groups[edit]

Drag king groups[edit]

Australia[edit]

Europe[edit]

America[edit]

North America[edit]

Canada[edit]
United States[edit]

This list was removed, in my opinion, without consensus, and I think it should be restored. A list of drag king groups seems notable and verifiable and adds to the reader's understanding of the subject. This is also information that wikipedia can cover with a worldwide focus that no one else seems to be doing. It's easiely maintainable and potentially can grow into its own article. The reason most performance related articles don't have a similar list, IMHO, is that group format is more emphasized in drag king culture. Benjiboi 03:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • See WP:EL and WP:Notability. We aren't the yellowpages, and we aren't the pinkpages. We are an encyclopedia. If these group are meritorious of their own articles, then create them. Then we can begin doing lists, such as List of drag queens. Until then, this is an unencyclopedic version of trying to include every group out of some touchy-feely idea that everyone who puts themselves out there is worth noting. That's not WP:V. --David Shankbone 03:29, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree but not in the mood to bicker. Plenty of lists include entries fo folks who don't have an article written on them. Since you seem to be an authority here I'll leave you to it. Benjiboi 17:12, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Template malfunction[edit]

There appears to be a malfunction in a template that is putting unexpected text into the article. That discussion is here. 98.211.44.211 (talk) 10:26, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Male impersonator[edit]

I wiki searched "Male impersonator" and was redirected to "Drag king". It seems to me that the page "Male impersonator" has been highjacked as the Drag King page and used exclusively for a very narrow and specific type of Male impersonation.

The introduction has a passing acknowledgement to the fact that British pantomime still uses female actors in male parts. Everything else pertains to Drag Queen performers. The person that I wish to write about is now 90, has acted as a solo female impersonator for about 60 years and would nnever be regarded as a drag king.

How does one reinstate a proper article on the subject of Male impersonation?

Amandajm (talk) 00:17, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

From what I can tell there wasn't an article that was then "highjacked". Male impersonator simply redirects here but can be edited and turned into an article. Male impersonation doesn't exist yet so you have several options. -- Banjeboi 01:43, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK! That's a good way to go. Then maybe Male impersonator could be redirected. And a short paragraph could lead to the Drag king article as a main. Amandajm (talk) 02:02, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
And a link, at least, could be added here as well. -- Banjeboi 11:10, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Inclusive[edit]

"They may be lesbian, bisexual, transgender, genderqueer, or otherwise part of the LGBT community. They may also be straight."

So they can be... anyone? CulturalSnow (talk) 00:34, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Time to remove all the unsourced POV here[edit]

I will wait a few days to give other editors a chance to source some of this, but after that all the unsourced POV, conjecture and yakk has got to go. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:04, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Considerable improvement has been done. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:22, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Top image[edit]

If we are to have a photo of a drag king at the top of the article, I think it has to be a notable performer, preferably one with an article of h own to prove authenticity. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:24, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Why does it have to be a notable performer? Anyone can perform as a drag king at a party, parade, etc.; a notable performer is not more legitimate as a drag king and does not better illustrate the subject. Please undo this reversion. Even if you feel the image I added is not ideal, it is better than no photo. Kolya Butternut (talk) 02:36, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone can take a photo of someone, upload it to Commons and claim that it's this or that. Authentication is the key word. That's best done with well-sourced notability. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:59, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm having a hard time understanding. What policy are you basing this on? I could take a photo of the Eiffel Tower and upload it to commons without having to provide authentication, so I'm not sure what is different here. The user uploaded photos of this same person performing as George Michael, would that be preferable because they are performing as a notable figure? Kolya Butternut (talk) 17:37, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No, trying to ride on a famous name would be even worse. Referring irrelevantly to the Eiffel Tower (world renowned) only adds uselessness to this discussion. As per WP:UCS, not citing other rules will improve Wikipedia e.g when it would be problematic to add images to articles where their authenticity can be reasonably questioned. A reliable reference in the caption to prove that the person shown has performed somewhere mainstream as a drag king would satisfy me in this case, but I cannot speak for other editors. Try adding even a performer as famous as Roxanne Russell,[1] or even a just a photo of her on TV, to List of drag queens and you'll see what happens. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:53, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You're misunderstanding why I bring up the Eiffel Tower. If I uploaded a picture of the Eiffel Tower, how would you know it's the Eiffel Tower and not a photo of a detailed replica? I say that because I don't understand what you mean by authentication. Do you want authentication that it is a photo of a woman dressed as a man? The article says "mostly female performance artists", so even if the person in the photo is trans or male, they would still qualify as a drag king. Or are you saying you want authentication that the person is in "drag"? Wouldn't that fall under WP:UCS? They have fake facial hair, are dressed like George Michael, are described by the uploader as a drag king, are categorized as a drag king[2] and the person who uploaded the photograph identifies themselves[3] in their account and has public photographs of themselves performing with "Aiden Lee Cox".[4] How much more WP:UCS can we get? If we needed a photo of a Halloween costume would a photo of a kid dressed as a witch and uploaded as "Halloween costume" need authentication? Why do you need the person to have performed professionally? Drag is not defined that way. Kolya Butternut (talk) 06:02, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Your latest edit (which I did you a favor and reverted) looks so promotional (of an unknown non-notable person) that we are now closer to a WP:COI issue, which is a more serious problem than what I have brought up heretofore re: authenticity. The top image must be of a person notably established as a drag king performer as per cited reliable sources. Clear enough? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:06, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No, it is not clear to me at all.  I do not understand why the top image must be of a person notably established as a drag king performer.  What is the conflict of interest issue? I have no connection to these people.  Anyway, I Googled the person in the photo; is this source satisfying? Kolya Butternut (talk) 18:59, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
For reference, here are the three reverted lead images:
  • (The watermark can be removed)
    (The watermark can be removed)
Kolya Butternut (talk) 15:37, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it is, as far as I'm concerned, but it might look weak (the only mainstream mention) to others. Please name the performer and cite the source in the caption. I dearly hope the image really is free, when you're going to all this trouble. Saw that an earlier image of her was deleted. I misunderstood earlier & thought for some reason you had taken the photos. Sorry! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 09:09, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If you're concerned it might not be free we could add one of the others, now that you understand there is no COI. Kolya Butternut (talk) 10:37, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Can you find as good a reference for Aiden Lee Cox? That's still the main thing. Those 2 photos do not look any more authentic (that the person in them is a notable drag king) than the other one, nor are they less liable to have their authenticity challenged. The people who uploaded all three to Commons claims "own work" but without any OTRS. It's a classic situation where any one of them eventually may be challenged for copyright. Lots of people upload copyrighted images to Commons claiming "own work".
More and more people are also uploading, for example, a photo of "Jane Doe" seated at a piano while asserting that she is a "pianist" and then adding them to articles called "pianist" - after which the they and their "friends" get a big laugh on Facebook when the photo is kept in those articles though "Ms Doe" has never played piano. I hope such a problem, and what some of us try to do to fight it, will shed som light on my attitude.
I think you should go with the first one where you found a good reference. Any risk is equal. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:39, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If the image now added is to be kept, a reference must be added to the caption showing that the person, who should be named, in fact is a drag king performer, or something must be added, well sourced, to the article in that regard. If that is not done, I will remove it again for lack of authentication. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 22:00, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The uploader user who keeps adding the image does not think the source he or she found is "appropriate" to add to the article. I have never seen anything like that before & am hoping others will opine on it. I stand by my view that the image is inappropriate without a source and should be removed if one is not added. Could be anyone posing as a drag king. Sources are added to articles, not to talk pages. I am threatened to be reported for "edit warring" if I remove the photo again and would like to spare administrators such a discussion about this. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 06:51, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am not the uploader of the image; I am the editor who added the image to the article.  Images don't need sources in an article and I've never heard of anyone demanding one.
Per WP:PRESERVE, an edit which improves the encyclopedia should not be removed if it can instead be improved.  I think it's fine as is because yes, anyone can pose as a drag king.[5] Kolya Butternut (talk) 14:29, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • While I ran across this issue on WP:3O, this is not so much a third opinion as an admin intervention. Kolya Butternut, it is a violation of the biographies of living persons policy to place an image of an identifiable person identifying them as a drag king, unless a reliable source explicitly confirms that they are, since that is a potentially controversial assertion about a living individual. You must not do this again and you will be blocked if you do. Seraphimblade Talk to me 17:09, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Seraphimblade, please do not threaten me with a block without due diligence. What text in WP:BLP suggests there is a violation? Why wouldn't you insert the source I provided if you felt it was necessary, per PRESERVE? A drag king is like a clown; it isn't something one necessarily is; anyone can be one. Is there some past policy discussion which would suggest a WP:BLUESKY identification of a person in drag as a person in drag is controversial? This isn't a gender identity or sexual orientation; a drag king is a person doing male drag. Why haven't you removed the image from Дрег краљ, Drag King (Bosnian), Drag King (Romanian), Drag King (Hebrew)? Kolya Butternut (talk) 18:29, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I am not responsible for the policies on other Wikipedia projects (nor can I read those languages, so they may have a reliable source cited somewhere). On the English Wikipedia, however, BLP prohibits making any controversial assertion about a living person without a reliable source. Saying that someone is a "drag (queen|king)" is such a potentially controversial assertion, so a reliable source will be required. That is not negotiable. It is also not my responsibility to provide and cite such sources, but yours, if you are the one who wishes to use the image. Seraphimblade Talk to me 19:31, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Seraphimblade, how can it be controversial to describe someone as a drag king when they are dressed as a drag king? The photograph itself is BLUESKY evidence. Per PRESERVE, Instead of removing content from an article, consider...Doing a quick search for sources and adding a citation yourself. It may not have technically been your responsibility to add a source, but you could have copied and pasted the source I provided instead of reverting my edit and threatening to block me. Kolya Butternut (talk) 20:40, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Wait, is this like using a picture of a celebrity dressed as a clown as the lead image of clown? That concern I could understand. While no source would be needed to show that the image depicts a clown, it would be some sort of weight violation? I still can't wrap my head around which policy this applies to, because I think a photograph of Lady Gaga as a drag king would be perfectly appropriate here. Kolya Butternut (talk) 20:53, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ James T. Sears in Rebels, Rubyfruit, and Rhinestones: Queering Space in the Stonewall South ISBN 978-0813529646 pp. 2, 41-47, 73-75, 84-85, 129-130, 154-156, 160-162, 287, 309 - re: career & life of Logan Carter a.k.a. Roxanne Russell

Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Technoculture 320-01[edit]

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 August 2023 and 8 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): B.raven222 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Pppp42.

— Assignment last updated by ACHorwitz (talk) 16:18, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Prominent modern drag kings[edit]

It's great to see references to kings such as Landon Cider and Hugo Grrrl, but I think we need to reference Adam All for running London's 'boibox' drag king cabaret, considering he already has his own wiki page and everything. Can someone please find a way to organically integrate this into the article? Thanks Galaxyedits (talk) 10:32, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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