Talk:Spokane County, Washington

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The WikiProject U.S. Counties standards might help.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ram-Man (talk • contribs) 07:54, May 26, 2006

Library timeline removed

I have just boldly removed the "timeline" section in the Library section. It was very over-detailed, listing hire and fire dates for individual library employees, and was generally unencyclopedic in my view. Moreover it overbalanced the rest of the article, contrary to the WP:UNDUE guideline. DES ^(talk) 23:26, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Older maps/images

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Not sure how useful it might be, but my attention was drawn to some older images of maps/plats of Spokane County. I've uploaded one such image here. It is in the public domain given its age. An excerpted portion was used in the history section of Saltese Flats (formerly Saltese Lake). As a point in time reference it is interesting, but would need some support in article text to avoid simply being decorative. If I upload more in the future I'll add them here for interested editors as a reference. —Locke Cole • t • c 20:51, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Spokane County Flag?

Is the Spokane County Flag, that was added by a user on May of 2023, authentic? I cannot find any reference to it on the Spokane County website or anywhere on the web, except CRWFlags.com and the wikimedia commons. Leif One (talk) 23:56, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes it is. The local newspaper has plenty on it. Excelsiorsbanjo (talk) 05:45, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Can you share some citations? I’ve been looking through the Spokesman Review website but I haven't been successful in finding any mention of it. JT Ramsey (talk) 07:37, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I have looked around online and at the courthouse and have not been able to find any mention of it. That’s doesn’t mean it’s not legitimate, but I can’t confirm it is. The only online place that mentions it (crwflags.com), even marks Spokane County as “it is reported that there is no known flag.” That website lists their source as: "Welcome to Washington", 2nd edition by Clem Buckley and Jim Bruner (c) 1998 Jim Bruner, Publisher ISBN: 0-9628251-1-5. JT Ramsey (talk) 07:36, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Spokane County adopted a new flag in 1988 from a contest to design it. It was designed by the daughter of state Rep. Gary Bumgarner, Stephanie Bumgarner-Ott. Twenty-five copies of the flag were produced at a cost of $70.07 each. https://www.newspapers.com/article/spokane-chronicle/138386976 (Spokane Chronicle Wed, Oct 19, 1988 page 5)

However, the flag was quickly forgotten until 2002 when it was discovered in a drawer. The previous last know sighting was at the County Courthouse in 1995. The search was prompted because Avista requested a replacement for the flag they over the Post Street generation facility. However, the commissioners decommissioned the flag because they were appalled by it's appearance and they were apprehensive because it may offend Native Americans. A new contest was going to be launched, but there's no record of it ever happening. https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-spokesman-review/138387594 (Spokesman-Review Mon, Apr 8, 2002 page 6) Leif One (talk) 23:05, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

There might be an old Spokane County flag in the Capitol rotunda. The virtual tour shows a flag that might be a match. If anyone is ever in Olympia, please have a look and report back. http://www.xplore.timelooper.com/wsc/ Leif One (talk) 23:08, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

The first appearance of the Spokane County Flag on wikipedia is June 2023. It appears with no citation or proof that it is legitimate. The only citation appears in January 2024 when the authenticity is questioned. See the above cited links about the history of flag. The citations are from Spokane newspapers that get the information from county government sources. The Spokane County commissioners are reported as decommissioning the flag in 1995. I contacted the office of Spokane County and was told Spokane County does not have a flag, only a logo. Unless any evidence can be found that the county flag is official, the prevailing evidence is that Spokane County no longer has an official flag. There is no basis for the flag to have been included in the first place. All evidence that it ever existed has been from research, that research encompasses the fact that it once existed, but no longer exists.

In the Spokesman-Review and Spokane Chronicle issue from April 14, 1988 an article by Lora Olson, states that there is a contest to design a Spokane County flag sponsored by the 'Spirit of '89' Centennial Celebration Committee. The article also reports that Puget Sound Tent and Awning Company agreed to produce, free of charge, a flag for each county. The flags will first be used in an honor guard for the Govenor's Inaugural Ball in 1989. This article has the earliest documentation that I can find concerning a flag for Spokane County. It has swayed me to agree with the user ExcelsiorBanjo, there is no official decree, no official record, only paraphrasing in newspaper articles. Unless there is evidence that Spokane County once officially commissioned a flag, it should not be represented as an historical artifact of Spokane County. -- Leif One

You seem to be ignoring responses made. This does not give the appearance of good faith editing. Anyway, you're outnumbered. There are paths forward for your cause, but I've personally no interest in helping you find them. At the moment, consensus on Wikipedia is that the flag should remain on the page as is. Additionally, at the moment, to anyone concerned with reality, the flag should remain on the page as is. Catch you later. Excelsiorsbanjo (talk) 21:36, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what consensus you are talking about. I've provided links, documentation and contacted Spokane County. Officially there is no flag, if there ever was, the racist overtones were concerning. Leif One (talk) 05:09, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

The flag is concerning, and it won't ever be replaced as long as people are pretending it doesn't exist. The consensus is above & in the history of its inclusion on the page. You are the only person out of a multitude who has been for removing it. You are the minority. You are against concensus. The majority of links, above, that you have provided, attest to its existence. The items you have cited to support its non-existence or unofficial status have equivalent later citations that support the opposite. If you want it removed from the page, I suggest you go through the normal channels of trying to make changes that are against consensus, or lobby the county to *officially* nullify or replace this flag. Excelsiorsbanjo (talk) 14:39, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

I do not understand how you have concluded there is a consensus or a majority to retain the county flag in question on the Spokane County Wikipedia page. Only one other person has commented besides you and myself. JT Ramsey asked you for citation of its legitimacy. The flag only appeared on the Spokane County pages as of June 2023 and had no justification or citation for its addition to Wikipedia. The flag has only been on the Wikipedia page for 8 or 9 months. It in not a historic artifact. If you feel it should be remembered, it should only be as a footnote. Leif One (talk) 21:49, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

"JT Ramsey asked you for citation of its legitimacy."

Yes, and you provided it for them.

"The flag only appeared on the Spokane County pages as of June 2023"

That's right, someone other than the two of us added it. That is support for inclusion.

"had no justification or citation for its addition to Wikipedia"

It's the county flag, so it doesn't need justification. The first references, again, you personally initially provided.

"you have concluded there is a consensus or a majority"

So as you see, that's two against one at the very least. The uploader & myself against you.

"If you feel it should be remembered, it should only be as a footnote."

Me personally? Personally I think it should be replaced by the county. But that's only going to happen as long as people at the county realize the situation. But what I think personally is somewhat less the issue.

This flag has been and presently is the official flag of the county. It is never going completely away. That's not how history works. It can be replaced as the official flag and there can be a new official replacement flag, and that would be pretty nice. But this flag is part of history, and until being replaced by an official act, is the official county flag. There's nothing anybody can personally directly do about that except official agents of the county. And they haven't done it yet.

Excelsiorsbanjo (talk) 21:36, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Wow, you really like molehills huh? I was around Spokane in the 1980's and never heard of it. Presumably you first learned about it when it was posted in June 2023. So 36 years, and NOW it has been posted on Wikipedia, if you do the math it's been posted on Wikipedia for about 1.8% of its existence (less if could only accept that it was disavowed in 1995). I think it deserves about that much attention today, a footnote.

Your logic is broken as well. you are perfectly OK accepting newspapers articles to confirm its authenticity, and you are not OK accepting newspaper articles that say it has been de-commissioned. You can't have it both ways. YOU haven't offered any citation at all, ZERO. You can't even say the uploader of the flag image supports you. That person appears to have an interest in flags and heraldry, that doesn't mean they support or reject it as a symbol of Spokane County.

"This flag has been and presently is the official flag of the county. It is never going completely away. That's not how history works." I asked you to prove it was official, you don't offer anything but an opinion. I couldn't find any evidence that it was official, and I looked. I DID find a County Official quoted by a reporter in a public record that the flag was problematic and de-commissioned. You can't pick which facts you want to believe, find some that support your opinion if you REALLY care about history. You can have a footnote for it, but you can't have an official flag next to the County Seal unless you can find some facts to support that. Leif One (talk) 07:49, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Let's keep this as objective and respectful as possible. I'm going to try to summarize what we know so far with the sources provided:

-October 1988, Spokane Chronicle article describes the newly adopted flag with image (head looking left)

-May 2001, digital replication added (head looking right) to crwflags.com sourcing the book: 'Welecome to Washington' book by Clem Buckley and Jum Bruner (1998). This same website indicates below the flag that "it is reported that there is no known flag."

-April 2002, Spokesman-Review article describes finding the lost flag and states "comissioners have decided to decomission this version" and planned to create a design competition before September 2002.

-June 2023, vector image uploaded to Wikipedia based on the crwflag.com image and added to the Spokane County page.

-March 2024, I called Spokane County and a spokesperson stated 'I have been asked this multiple times. There is no official flag for Spokane County. The only official representation is the County logo.'

I think we can all agree that it does appear to be the flag from at least 1988 to 2002. This is supported by the 1988 Spokane Chronicle article, and the 1998 book which served as the source for the digital replications. A few users have said it is flown in the state capitol, but I have not been able to get ahold of them and the digital tour does not have clear views of any of the flags so I cannot verify this.

I understand that there is only one source of decomissioning the flag, but there is no evidence that it is still the official flag. When I called and asked about a flag, the County denies they have one and stated: 'There is no official flag for Spokane County. The only official representation is the County logo.' They did say they would look into it more and would try to find the record of the vote decomissioning the flag. I have also reached out to the following to try to find newer sources including the Spokesman-Review, Spokane County, the Capitol building, and Kate McCaslin (county comissioner quoted from the 2002 article).

My vote would be to remove the flag unless it can be verified with a citable source by the County to still be the official flag. JT Ramsey (talk) 20:15, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

There is a flag that generally matches the colors in the northeast corner of the rotunda in the virtual tour of the Capitol building :http://www.xplore.timelooper.com/wsc/

It also (likely same flag) appears to be brought in during the 2017 legislative opening ceremonies as they bring in every flag from every county as seen in the first few minutes of the video: https://tvw.org/video/senate-floor-debate-2017-opening-ceremonies-2017011030/

A media representative from the WA Department of Enterprise services (in charge of the capitol campus) responded saying that this was interesting and they would look into whether or not the flag is there. While this is all very interesting, the flag being present in the capitol doesn't actually make it the current official county flag. I would still recommend removing the flag unless the County states it still is or there is evidence it was never decomissioned. JT Ramsey (talk) 00:39, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

"there is evidence it was never decomissioned"

As I've already linked in the history for Leif, this newspaper excerpt comes after Leif's paraphrased suggestion that it was "decomissioned":

https://img.newspapers.com/img/thumbnail/578418784/400/400/2900_2850_1000_1000.jpg

The contest that was meant to replace the flag never happened. It has never been formally replaced.

I've also already explained that many symbols and flags of Spokane (or anywhere) throughout history have never been officially adopted. A number of flags considered official Spokane flags were not. I'm pretty sure only the last two for the city were adopted by actual government processes. Maybe only the current one.

"I would still recommend removing the flag"

Anyway, this at most gets us to two vs two. Your side can find more people to weigh in if you want, or my side can, but what one of you should really do, if you actually want to continue treating unofficial actions paraphrased in a newspaper as official action, is to use the ordinary, official process on Wikipedia to get more comments in on this matter.

Excelsiorsbanjo (talk) 20:10, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

The newspaper link you cite, https://img.newspapers.com/img/thumbnail/578418784/400/400/2900_2850_1000_1000.jpg , it does not have a date or origin, please cite your sources. Also the "contest" in the thumbnail image excerpt indicates only that "It will take some time to whittle down the pile of logos, and the county won't have a contest to pick a new one." The excerpt is irrelevant to the flag, and they are taking about choosing a logo. The flag is only mentioned to clarify their opposition to it. "The county flag...was declared garish by county officials, and has since been hidden away. "We don't want to go there," said Commissioner Phil Harris." That snippet includes county officials and Commissioner Harris opposing the flag, and since you are keeping score that is at least three opinions opposing the flag.

I asked a group of people that are interested in Spokane History. The group is administered by a local historian, university Professor and Archivist at the Washington State Archives. Here are the results of that Spokane History group.

0 votes - I love it.

30 votes - I hate it.

4 votes - I don't care.

1 vote - It Should represent Spokane County.

5 votes - It should NOT represent Spokane County.

So please add 35 votes opposing the flag, and add Commissioner Harris and county Officials (at least two to be plural, but likely many more) for 3 more opposing votes. That's at least 38, plus the two opposing votes already expressed on this talk page.

The survey has 1 vote in support, so add that to your side.

This amounts to 40 votes opposing the flag. Somehow you think that the original flag poster User:IndysNotHere is in favor of the flag, I don't interpret it as an endorsement. IndysNotHere appears to be a heraldry and flag enthusiast. They have not indicated support or opposition, and none should be inferred. The survey did find that 1 vote favored your viewpoint. So still 40 opposing the flag, 2 in support of the ugly garish flag.

The reality is that Spokane County has expressed it does not like the flag and chooses not to use the flag. They have stated, on different occasions, from different queries, to myself and JT Ramsey that Spokane County does not have a flag, only a logo. Please ask them for yourself. Yes, it happened and yes it did exist. It doesn't need to be wiped from history, but also, the flag is not current and is no longer used by Spokane County.

I have found no evidence that it was ever "officially" adopted, nor has there been any evidence that it was "officially" removed. I acknowledge it was part of history, but it is not a part of Spokane now. Leif One (talk) 22:18, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I see that the article from May 12, 1995, Spokesman-Review had been missed. Here is article describing the flag being found in 1995. https://www.spokesman.com/stories/1995/may/12/hasson-says-county-flag-doesnt-fly-banner/ Leif One (talk) 23:17, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I haven't been following this "debate" at all, but catching up now I can see that there's some clear misunderstandings on how Wikipedia works. Per WP:NOTCENSORED, an offensive flag that was adopted (as evidenced by newspaper accounts from the 1980s and 1990s) can and generally should still be displayed in this article in some form. Per WP:OR, the decision on whether or not it is official must come from outside the project. If the county has a website or document or something publicly available that disavows the flag, then it can be removed from the infobox; even in that scenario, the flag should still be mentioned in prose. SounderBruce 04:14, 15 March 2024 (UTC)