Talk:Count of St. Germain

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Birth and Death Dates[edit]

I propose to add question marks to the birth and death years since it is not known for a fact when he was actually born, or if the person who supposedly died on February 27, 1784 was the same person who was supposedly born during the year cited in this Wikipedia article. It is well known that the name "Count Of St. German" was used by a number of people during the mid to late 1700s, and there are also conflicting accounts of this person being seen alive (for example: at Masonic meetings where he signed log books) not long after the death date in question. Too much hearsay and speculation, and not enough verifiable facts. I also should point out that the Fortean Times article cited and linked as an information source pertaining to the death of the Count Of St. German is based on hearsay, speculation and lacking in objectivity. I also propose a change or removal of the "Death or otherwise" section of this article because it too shows a clear bias and personal opinion of the author. Dalell (talk) 20:15, 22 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • The birth date already says "possibly". Most sources believe that Germain died at the stated date.
  • "It is well known that the name "Count Of St. German" was used by a number of people during the mid to late 1700s" Sources?
  • "conflicting accounts of this person being seen alive" If you have trustworthy sources for this information that's fine.
  • "Too much hearsay and speculation, and not enough verifiable facts." A good deal of this article is my doing and remains very much a work in progess, so I know that there are some good sources referenced, but I'd be grateful if you could add some more. The very nature of this man means that facts will always be a little sketchy.
  • "I also should point out that the Fortean Times article cited and linked as an information source pertaining to the death of the Count Of St. German is based on hearsay, speculation and lacking in objectivity." Will you help us find alternate sources?
  • "I also propose a change or removal of the "Death or otherwise" section of this article because it too shows a clear bias and personal opinion of the author." It says "Death" last time I checked. Farrtj (talk) 20:28, 22 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting. The "Death or otherwise" section was there earlier, but it now appears to be gone... "conflicting accounts of this person being seen alive" If you have trustworthy sources for this information that's fine. As you indicated, this subject will always be open to speculation and sketchy details. Since the Cooper-Oakely book is cited as a source for this article, that would be one place to look in regard to postmortem Masonic lodge appearances, as would Manly Hall's book "Sages & Seers". Mr Hall had reason to believe his sources were reliable, being a high ranking Freemason. Regardless, I'm just suggesting to keep the death date open rather than stating one as a fact. "It is well known that the name "Count Of St. German" was used by a number of people during the mid to late 1700s" Sources? The cited Fortean Times article for one; and pretty much any book about the Count of St. Germain. 71.217.9.57 (talk) 21:32, 22 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
For further reference, on page 7 of a 1905 article in the Theosophist, there is mention of the Comte de St. Germain visiting and/or being seen by known historical figures after 1793: http://www.theosophical.ca/adyar_pamphlets/AdyarPamphlet_No90.pdf It would seem at least some of the information is based on Cooper-Oakley's research. Actually, the entire article is worth reading for the scattered accounts of the Comte's personal character and activities. Dalell (talk) 03:51, 30 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
His death date is verified through various sources: in the memoirs of Prince Charles of Hesse-Kassel, in whose home he stayed in his last years (and where he eventually died), in the list of deaths in the register of the Church of St. Nicolai in Eckernförde where he was buried, from the accounts of the same church, from an official announcement made by the mayor and the city council of Eckernförde regarding his death, from an obituary written by a professor Remer and published in 1784 in the periodical Neuenbraunshweigisches Nachtrichten, in a letter from 1825 by Charlse of Hesse-Kassle to his brother Christian of Hesse-Kassel. All these sources are published in the book Saint-Germain by Marie Antoinette von Lowzow, Dansk Historisk Håndbogsforlag, Copenhagen, 1981. ISBN 87-88742-04-0. In that work they are translated into Danish, but all are extensively cited to the originals, most of which were published in or around 1784. I will be happy to supply the original citations if needed. As such I have removed the category: whose existence is disputed, since academical scholarship does not dispute his existence, only his origins and the particulars about his life. --Saddhiyama (talk) 15:18, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your work of scholarship Saddhiyama. As I don't speak Danish do you think you could fill out the Death section of the article with some of those sources? Thanks. Farrtj (talk) 16:27, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, I will dig up some citations. --Saddhiyama (talk) 22:08, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just some info about Blavatsky referencing Saint Germain[edit]

The quote below is from Moryason, see web link added below. Moryason states that several individuals well known in esoterics were incarnations of the same being. He is one but not the only source to point out this correlation.

"Involving the presence of this Master who was embodied also in the XVIIIth century and whose name “Earl of Saint Germain”, amazed the Great Ones of that time, H.P. Blavatsky clarifies : “The Earl of Saint Germain was certainly the greatest Master of the East whom Europe saw for long centuries. But Europe did not know him. May be someone will recognize him during the next ”Terror” (in italic in H.P.B's text.) which will affect all Europe when it will arise, and not only a single country.” [Theosophical Glossary , page 360. French Edition - Publishing Adyar, on 1981]. These lines were written about fifty years before the realization of this prediction."

http://www.moryason.com/uk/02_bardon_magic/2-7-bardon_uk.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.129.13.96 (talk) 11:18, 1 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Since we cannot accept incarnations or predictions as fact, there is no way this can be included in that state in the artice. While it is noteworthy to mention St Germains popularity in esoteric circles, it is important to stress that it is the personal opinions of various occult writers and not established fact. --Saddhiyama (talk) 14:56, 1 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Robert François Quesnay de Saint Germain and the Occult[edit]

The Consortium of European Research Libraries lists references by someone with the name Robert François Quesnay de Saint Germain and also with an AKA of Antoine Court de Gébelin, who was a noted occultist. However, it also lists his dates as 23 January 1751 - 8 April 1805, which is not the same as Gébelin's. It seems like an interesting thread if someone wanted to start hunting down the source of some of the confusion/misperceptions/whatever about St. Germain's involvement with the occult. --Unready (talk) 09:53, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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count of St. Germain≈agora77[edit]

St. Germain died at the city of Eckernförde (baltic coast). He lived there his last six years. He is burried in the St. Nikolai church at Eckernförde, a place very close to Schleswig and Louisenlund castle<wikipedia.de>, the summerresidence of Carl of Hesse. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Agora77 (talk • contribs) 13:02, 15 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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On Voltaire's cited words[edit]

Hello

I intended to ask whether the section stating that Voltaire called Germain "the wonder man", is actually correct? I mean, is Voltaire confirmed to have said those words? I might be wrong, but in the only letter I am aware of where Voltaire briefed on St. Germain, which he does in a letter to Frederick of Prussia, signed April 15, 1758, he instead called him "A man who knows everything and never dies"; the section from the letter where he briefs on Germain, translated into English; "It is said that he is only known as one M. de Saint Germain, who formerly lived in the city of Trent with the fathers of the council, and who will probably have the honor of seeing VM in about fifty years. He is a man who does not die, and who knows everything. As for me, who am near the end of my career and who know nothing, I limit myself to wishing you to know M. le Duc de Choiseul."

Source: Frederick II. "Correspondance avec M. de Voltaire." Oevres Posthumes de Frederic II. Tome XIV. Amsterdam, 1789. Pages 255 - 257. https://books.google.com/books?id=-CQPAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Maybe he actually did call him the wonder man and I have merely missed it, but if it isn't certain, I think that the phrase above from Voltaire's letter, "He is a man who does not die, and who knows everything. ", should either replace the words "The wonder man" in the article, or, if I have simply just missed those words, be mentioned side by side to provide Voltaire's full statement on Germain to the reader.

P.S. After closer thought, I took the liberty to add the line in the same sentence as mentions "the wonder man" in the introduction of the article anyway together with the attached source. Okama-San (talk) 04:30, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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