Talk:Tuatha Dé Danann

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According to a book read on the air by Dr. Gene Scott, the TV evangalist, the TDD are actually the Tribe of Dan - one of the lost tribes of Isreal.

For anyone to believe that the Tuatha De Danaan are the lost tribes of Dan of Israel are incorrect. Dan is short for the Irish Goddess Danu(Mother Goddess) in other words Mother Earth as in Greece she is called Mother Gaea. You have to stop using imagery sources. We need physical written evidence first. Actually the Tuatha De Dannan were never a mythological race. It was said during the Fifth invasion, that the Tuath De Dannan came on ships that blocked out the sun, either by sky or by sea.

We have NO proof that they take their name from the "Mother Goddess". Like the Tribe of Dan explanation, it is merely a theory. It is worth noting that the Bible refers to the Tribe of Dan as seafarers and they were among the first to disappear. Acorn897 (talk) 16:54, 23 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've given in to my frustration and spelt the name right. "Danaan" is not an Irish spelling.--Nicknack009 23:25, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

If you listen to TV evangalist's you'll go along way : aye right Culnacréann Horse Ireland 19:53, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen alot of reference to the Tuatha De Danann as gods, but I was wondering, has the comparison been made between them and the Elves? --Solacium Christiana 01:34, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Many times. Tolkien reportedly used some of the TDD myths for some of his material. Gabhala 13:57, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sources for geanealogic tree?[edit]

ATTENTION. Which are the sources of this geanealogic tree? According to Lebar Gabala and Keating's genealogies, Bres was son of Elatha son of Delbaeth son of Dot son of Nét; than Bres was brother of Dagda and Ogma. Please, somebody control here: http://www.bifrost.it/CELTI/Appendici/GenealogiaT.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.75.91.214 (talk • contribs)

This article doesn't seem to list any sources at all. Other than that it's very good. Could someone add some sources in ? Otherwise one of those big "This Article does not cite any refences" info boxes is likely to appear. --WaterWolf 17:01, 4 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tuatha Dé Danann in fiction.[edit]

Isn't the Tuatha Dé Danann in fiction a bit whimsical and unnecessary ? The fiction that is listed there has only very tenuous links to the subject. Also, there has been so much Irish fiction written on the subject (The DeDanann Isles series by Michael Scott and The Giltspur series by Cormac MacRaois come instantly to mind), that if it was all listed, the list would be about five times the length of the original article.


Reply: I think based on analogies with other wikipedia entries that it's not out of place to have a list of uses in popular culture, especially when they link to other wikipedia entries. That said, I think the bit about the submarine could be shortened to just the first sentence, as it's entirely unconnected with the history or mythology and links to an extensive entry of its own for those interested. --Frippo 22:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As the Tribe of Dan[edit]

I've removed the section 'Tuatha De Danann as the Tribe of Dan' - It was less than two lines long; and all it did was claim that British-Israelists believe that "the Tuatha De Danann are indeed the lost Tribe of Dan", and proceeded to link to a poorly-written 'debunking' article at a Bible essay website. Conjecture surrounding the Lost Tribes of Israel, though generally interesting enough, does not need a mention here. --Knyght27 05:42, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

why not? mention of the tribe of Dan in the context of British Israelism may well be justified here. I agree it doesn't deserve its own section though. dab (ᛏ) 09:12, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The removed paragraph should be removed as it is a valid assumption. Just as valid as the "Mother Goddess" theory. Was it removed because Knyght27 disagrees with it? Hardly a dispassionate reason! Acorn897 (talk) 16:56, 23 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

move[edit]

if we're going to mark long vowels in the title, it should be Túatha Dé Danann (or Tuatha De Danann, but not Tuatha Dé Danann), see tuath. dab (ᛏ) 07:47, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Dictionary of the Irish Language (Old and Middle Irish) lists túath (with a fada). The Collins Pocket Irish Dictionary (Modern Irish) gives tuath (without). It seems either is possible, depending on period. --Nicknack009 17:46, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Popular Culture[edit]

The Popular Culture section was removed as irrelevant. I'm curious as to how the decision on degree of relevancy was reached? Surely the section would be very relevant to someone who had read something on the TDD and wanted to find more in a similar vein? Gabhala 13:57, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that it wasn't a well-formatted discussion of the appearance of the Danann in popular culture, rather just a laundry-list of various appearances of the name. It added nothing to the discussion or understanding of the article subject. And it is not Wikipedia's purpose to let people find similar media which they might enjoy. I suggest Gnooks for that. --Eyrian 22:21, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe the best option is to spin the section out into a daughter article. I'm not a fan of these sections, and they are unecyclopedic, but this usually works leaving the main article unaffected. Ceoil 22:32, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That article would likely be entirely devoid of relevance or sources, and would probably be swiftly deleted (see WP:IPC). Further, no harm isn't a valid reason. I simply do not see the kind of merit necessary appearing. If somebody wants to write a well-sourced section/article about the portrayals of the Danann in popular media, that's fine. But a laundry-list of appearances without context or analysis (which must be attributed) doesn't do any good. --Eyrian 23:07, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It would be the responsibility of the people adding the pop-cult factiods to justify that article's presence. If any element of any article is devoid of relevance or sources, it needs to go. My suggestion is based around the fact that this project inevitably attracts cruft; fine, spin it out, to grow and later die in a place where only the servers and speedy people need worry about it. Ceoil 23:50, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OK. As I said, I was just curious. Gabhala 21:07, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The list of appearances of this subject in literature was interesting and intriguing. An encyclopedia may list such references. It seems that a set of admins are on a crusade against popular culture and trivia. I will quote the list shortly but my question here is why delete the list instead of requesting that people list references to enhance the relevancy of this section which you deem not worthy of this article? It seems a bit arbitrary and a whole lot like a campaign to prove yourselves right rather than allowing for the organic, useful growth of an article...

This isn't useful growth. It's the accumulation of silly little references, without any kind of context or analysis. --Eyrian 00:07, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. The factoids are also unsourced.--Cúchullain t/c 08:11, 27 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This argument has been running for a very long time now. As I already said in the 'Tuatha Dé Danann in fiction' section above, I think this section is not needed in the article. 90% of the listed pop culture references simply name check the Tuatha Dé Danann and are completely irrelevant. It's the kind of fluff a section like that will attract. There are far more relevant items that could be listed but the list would end up being huge. I'm not opposed to a separate article on this but it shouldn't be included in this article. --WaterWolf 09:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

- Slaine: The Horned God first appeared in the British comic 2000AD No. 330 in 1983 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.148.62.141 (talk) 12:19, 13 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Popular culture - which keeps getting deleted[edit]

  • The Tuatha Dé Danann (spelled Tuatha Dé Danaan in the books) play a prominent role in Karen Marie Moning's novels. The first set, the Highlander series, are standalone romance novels that are best read together and in order and the Fever series which are suspense novels (so far, no romance) the first of which is "DarkFever".
  • The Tuatha Dé Danann, and the Fomorians (spelt Fomhoire) play vital roles in Juliet Marillier's "Sevenwaters Trilogy"
  • The Tuatha Dé Danann appear in a chapter of Poul Anderson's book The Broken Sword, a fantasy novel placed in northern Europe during the Middle Ages. The hero Scafloc travels from Britain to Ireland and meets the People of Danu in a deep sidhe.
  • In Keith Taylor's Bard series, the central character, Felimid Mac Fal, is descended from the Tuatha Dé Danann. Mac Fal has an ancestral sword, Kincaid, which bears an ancient curse: if it falls into the hands of anyone not descended from the Tuatha Dé Danann, that person will die before the next sunset.
  • The Tuatha Dé Danann (spelled Tuatha de Dannon within the game) appear in the online game City of Heroes as enemies with the appearance of hulking, green creatures with antlers. They are sometimes led by 'Boss' monsters called "Bres". In the game, they reprise their role as enemies of the Fir Bolg, who are now pumpkin-like creatures. This is explained in-game as a side effect of the two groups having been transported to their new home (and constant warzone), the Croatoa sector.
  • The Tuatha Dé Danann appear in Diane Duane's book A Wizard Abroad, in which the battle of Lugh and the Formori is resumed in modern times. Lugh uses his spear to kill Balor of the Evil Eye, king of the Formori. The spear is said to be the mythical Spear of Destiny.
  • The Tuatha Dé Danann are featured heavily in Morgan Llywelyn 's book Bard: The Odyssey of the Irish
  • Many of the Tuatha Dé Danann appear in Laurell K. Hamilton's Merry Gentry series of books, and mostly centers upon the Unseelie sidhe, who used to be gods, although they themselves were not always of the Unseelie court.
  • The Tuatha Dé Danann are referenced in the Outlanders novel series by Mark Ellis (aka James Axler) as having engaged in a long war with the Anunnaki for possession of the Earth. The last of the Danann, the mad god Maccan, has appeared twice in the series (Dragoneye and Mad God's Wrath), wielding the deadly Silver Hand of Nuadha. The Danann princess Fand has also appeared in Outlanders.
  • The Tuatha Dé Danann are presented as a water-breathing species from Thierna Na Oge, one of the five lost cities of Atlantis in the 1986 Aquaman comic book limited series by Neal Pozner and Craig Hamilton.
  • The Tuatha Dé Danann appear in the roleplaying game Shadowrun. In the context of the game, they are Irish elves who appeared after the magical awakening of 2011. They claimed Ireland as their homeland, renaming it Tír na nÓg. They consider human and other non-elven Irish to be their inferiors, whom they refer to as Firbolg. Non-Irish elves often view them as a model to emulate.
  • In the roleplaying game Changeling: The Dreaming, the Tuatha Dé Dannan are mysterious godlike beings who are ancestors of the fae.
  • The Tuatha Dé Danann inspired a Brazilian Celtic/Folk Metal band, Tuatha de Danann (band), whose lyrics are mainly about fantasy and celtic folklore.
  • The Tuatha Dé Dannan also inspired a well-known traditional Irish band, De Dannan.
  • The Fir Bolg are represented in the online game World of Warcraft as Furbolgs, bearlike, hulking, feral, tribal creatures with large bellies, usually wielding spears.
  • The MMORPG Dark Ages (computer game) players are referred to as 'Tuatha de Danaan' a slight variation of 'Tuatha Dé Dannan'.
  • Manau, a celtic/hip hop group from Britanny, has a popular song called La Tribu de Dana. Which is French for 'Tuatha de Danaan'. In the song, adapted from Alan Stivell's, Manau, tells the story of a celtic warrior.
  • In Grant Morrison's comic book metaseries Seven Soldiers, many elements of the Tuatha de Danann myth appear, especially issue #1 which contains their four cities, some of the four weapons, and a reference to the Silver Arm, Nuada's nickname.
  • Michael Moorcock includes themes of Celtic mythology and the Tuatha Dé Danann in the Corum books of his Eternal Champion seriesc. In this mini series, non-human protagonist and aspect of the Eternal Champion, Prince Corum fights fomorians and, like Nuada, has a silver hand.

Pronunciation[edit]

Would some nice person like to add how Tuatha Dé Danann is pronounced? An IPA guide or a spoken .ogg file would be ideal. Peter1968 (talk) 12:33, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've added an attempt at the IPA that's as right as I can make it for modern Irish. The Old Irish pronunciation is more or less the same, except the th would be pronounced like an English th, not an h. --Nicknack009 (talk) 19:02, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've updated the Irish IPA following the standard used at the Irish phonology article and added Old Irish. Note that these are phonemic (//) rather than phonetic ([]) transcriptions. The transcription at Old Irish only marks palatal consonants, so I've followed that practice for OI. As far as the lenition goes, I don't pretend to have any detailed knowledge of OI, I'm just following this...

10.01. Nominal inflections which brought about lenition in the following words, notably adjectives and genitives, are the nominative singular feminine, the nominative plural masculine, the genitive singular masculine and neuter, the dative singular of all genders...

— R.P.M. & W.P. Lehmann, An Introduction to Old Irish 1975

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 05:28, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tuatha Dé Danann family tree[edit]

Can some one please insert Bres as Brigid's husband and Ruadan as their son. I have no idea how to figure out how to edit that stupid chart, but this correction needs to be made. If you need a source check out Gray, Elizabeth A. ed. & trans. Cath Maige Tuired: The Second Battle of Mag Tuired. Kildare: 1982. pp 42. Cheers.206.188.67.28 (talk) 15:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tuatha Dé Danann and Greek Danaans[edit]

I have restored the fact that the TDD and the Greek Danaans are not related. I don't believe it needs a cite, as it should be blitheringly obvious to anyone that any similarity between a misspelling of an Irish word and an Anglicisation of a Greek word, which doesn't exist between the original Irish and Greek words, must be coincidental. The only references linking them are in popular "ancient mysteries" type books, which have no standards at all. Any reputable scholar writing on either subject would consider the fact there is no link too obvious to have to state. Popular books are full of gibberish about Celtic subjects, and it unreasonable to expect scholarly sources refuting them all. --Nicknack009 (talk) 23:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Are not known to be connected" is a perfect statement of fact. Are not connected is description of a universal negative, which cannot be proven, unless it be shown that some positive fact makes the conclusion impossible. If so, that positive fact should be stated. If we can say that Tuatha Dé Danann is known to be derived from X of Indo-European provenance while Danaos comes from Y of Indo-European provenance then we have knowledge of separate origins. Only then could we make the absolute claim that they are not related. Until then, they are not known to be relaetd, their relation is doubted, or scholars believe that claims of a relation are unsupported. If you want to say that, go ahead.

I haven't read those sources which you refer to as ancient mystery books. If they were to claim that the Latinate Dana-an work meaning people of Danaos like Rom-an means "people of Rome" then they would be perhaps be making a false identification between the -an endings. But the question remains that the origin of Dan- in the Tuatha Dé Danann is unknown, and hence is not known to be connected to Danaos. If the claims of nonserious scholars (with which I am not familiar and in which I am not interested) are such that they need to be shown to be opposed by serious scholars, then that can be mentioned with some explanation.

But "scholars see no connection" is accurate and avoids claims of omniscience.Kjaer (talk) 00:24, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is highly plausible that the Tathe Dé Dannan were the Phoenicians. First, there is the settlement of the Peloponnese by the sons of Aegyptos and the daughters of Danaos, as mentioned by Herodotus. Danaos was considered the Phoenician. This is during Egypt's age of empire during the New Kingdom, when the Phoenicians were swarming out all over the Mediterranean and beyond. Secondly, Phoenician artifacts have been found across Europe. They brought their Egyptian religion with them, especially the worship of Isis. Phoenicia being part of the Egytian empire which stretched all the way to Turkey, they were even closer to Egyptian religion than the Romans and even the Greeks. This resulted in the cult of the Black Madonna in many places. Lastly, the Tathe Dé Dannan were given Connacht. There are Phoenician objects found in Connacht. [1] [2] MrSativa (talk) 14:52, 31 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As you know, our opinions can't be used in articles. The Phoenicians were not part of the Egyptian empire, nor did they share the same religion. As our article on them says, "The religious practices and beliefs of Phoenicia were cognate generally to their neighbours in Canaan" - see Ancient Canaanite religion, plus some Egyptian cults."All over Europe" is a bit of a stretch, but certainly along the Med and Iberia. I have no idea why anyone would think a stone from a medieval monastery is Phoenican, but your gnostic warrior cites this article which doesn't suggest it's Phoenician. Show me an archaeological source for Phoenicians in Ireland. Doug Weller talk 17:36, 31 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"The Phoenicians were not part of the Egyptian empire, nor did they share the same religion." That's your opinion. MrSativa (talk) 02:41, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's the opinion of virtually every academic writing on these subjects. If you feel strongly about this, have a go at adding this to Phoenicia and Ancient Egypt and see what others say. You are aware of WP:VERIFY and WP:RS yet you continue to ignore them. Doug Weller talk 09:25, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well the article on Phoenicia mentions trade between it and Great Britain: "Strabo states that there was a highly lucrative Phoenician trade with Britain for tin via the Cassiterides whose location is unknown but may have been off the northwest coast of the Iberian Peninsula. Professor Timothy Champion, discussing Diodorus Siculus's comments on the tin trade, states that "Diodorus never actually says that the Phoenicians sailed to Cornwall. In fact, he says quite the opposite: the production of Cornish tin was in the hands of the natives of Cornwall, and its transport to the Mediterranean was organised by local merchants, by sea and then over land through France, well outside Phoenician control."

A trade network that included Ireland as well may not be implausible. But we need sources for it. Currently our article on Prehistoric Ireland only mentions evidence of contact with Roman Britain. Dimadick (talk) 14:38, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone explain to me the reason for including this point in the first place? It seems to be blindingly obvious that the two are not related, and it takes up room in an already extremely complex entry. Nilzy (talk) 12:59, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]


The Fhenicians are claimed by the ancient Irish to be one in the same as the Irish. The Irish go by the actual name Fheni (this was crushed by Victorian age), the "Phoenicians" are a ghost concept, assigned to "extinction" by bishops, the Celtic "coat" was then applied over the "Fheni primer". They're all false constructs, essentially. Don't let the construct of "deluge", that "planted vine" abroad get in the way of understanding it's not only that Irish claim roots in the Fhoeni, but the Fheni then trace back to Ireland. It's circular. There may not be "evidence" of a link to Ireland or Britain that is specifically Phoenician within narrow parameters, the further one goes away from "Phoenicia" toward Ireland the older the archaeological evidence gets (which contradicts the received wisdom). "Phoenician" sites near Cadiz are far older, I think, than those in the east Med.


Agreed - now why is Olympian Pantheon in ==see also== ?? ClemMcGann (talk) 09:17, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed that the connection between the Tuatha de Danaan and the "Greek" Danaans is of the most tenuous. See Mark Woodhuizen's book on the Sea Peoples, to whom the Denyen were a later addition. The Denyen were the "Greek" Danaans, as the Ekwesh/Ahiyyawa were the "Greek" Achaeans. 71.163.114.49 (talk) 16:01, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://gnosticwarrior.com/the-phoenician-menorah-of-ireland.html
  2. ^ https://gatesofnineveh.wordpress.com/2011/12/13/high-north-carthaginian-exploration-of-ireland/

The "secret" of "Tuatha (de) Danu"[edit]

Many scholars try to "find" the roots of Tuatha (de) Danu through Hebraic occult nonsense about "Dan tribe", which was simply Hyperborean "Scynthian" (Slavic and also Irish eventually) goddess Dana or Danu...

The correct transliteration of this Tzarist / Goddesses / Deva was among old Slavic people from DON river (important) called "DANA" or "DANITSA" (Danica) goddess. And transliteration of the Irish Tuatha is slavic Detsa(children); where "t" was transliterated through d and vice versa and TH was transliterated into soft "Ts", almost "c". So "Deca ("children") of Dana or Danitsa(Danu). The city called "Vienna" or "Wien" still today carries its name - "DUNAJ" (Dunay) among SloVenian people. The transliteration of "Wien" (Vienna) derived from the people of "WENDS" or "VENETI" (king Samo, king of Wends or Venns).

So the "secret" behind this name "Danu" or Dana or Danica means "light"; "day". People think that Danica represented a slavic goddess of "Venus", but it represented a constellation; not a "star" (venus) , but sisters (stars), daughters of Dazhbog(zodiac).

grammar problem?[edit]

" Hindu mythology has a goddess called Danu, who may be an Indo-European parallel."

"Who" is a relative pronoun which should refer to the nearest noun. That would be "Danu" the Hindu goddess. The Hindus are Indo-Aryans, not Indo-Europeans. If the Irish Danu is the parallel to the Hindu Danu, then instead of "who may be," use "to which the Irish Danu may be". 71.163.114.49 (talk) 15:58, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Recent quote attributed to Rawlinson[edit]

Before anyone goes to see if Rawlinson actually wrote that, he didn't. It is copied from "Genesis of the Grail Kings" by fringe authot Laurence Gardner.[1] Dougweller (talk) 15:21, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Mountains of the Conmaiche in Connacht[edit]

This place is identified as Slieve Anierin. Nmclough (talk) 08:19, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Points with respect to the name.[edit]

Why is this article relying on an American for a translation of simple to understand Irish? Why is any citation, here, needed at all? One doesn't need a citation to establish the meaning of the English words "John's hat", or the Spanish equivalent of the aforementioned.

Dé is, as can be clearly seen, a capitalised, proper noun. It should be translated as such. Why is it not capitalised (Wikipedia follows normal rules of grammar etc.).

Dé is the possessive, genitive form of "Dia", in English, "God". That is to say it means "God's", and nothing else, most certainly not "gods" (with is neither singulsr nor genitive).

To imply Dé is the plural form of god is deceptive nonsense.

To imply Dé means "goddess" is also deceptive nonsense. Goddess would also be "dia" with the prefix "ban" for woman. It doesn't say bandia.

To then imply Dé means both plural "gods" and singular "goddess" simultaneously is beyond ridiculous.

Dé means "God's" and nothing other than this, in the past and present time.

"Tuath" means country or kingdom as well as the people of the country, a designation one in the same. This should be clearly explained in the initial translation. "Tuatha" may refer specifically to the "people" of the Tuath, in this context ("people" by the very nature of the word implies a plurality of human beings without need for the "s" affix. To imply it means "peoples" would imply "more than one race" and this, once again, is not what is communicated. It is another error.

Also, there are no prepositions such as [tribe] "of the" [goddess Danaan]. We can't just invent and insert non-existant prepositions (even if deceptive mistranslators have done, to fit an even greater mistranslation). They must be removed as false.

"Tuatha Dé" is "God's people", Tuatha Dé is "God's kingdom" or "God's country", where God's people dwell. Simples.

If arguing, with respect to the late scribal addition "Danaan", altered once Christianity was universally accepted across Europe, is part of the genitive (possessive) noun "God's..." then the English should be Danaan God's People.

To argue Tuatha Dé is "people of gods" or "tribe of gods" is pure nonsense, due to a deceptive withdrawal of the apostrophe. Should one wish the words to go in that order that is fine, as "people of God's." or "tribe of God's", but this not natural in English, where the genitive proper noun comes first giving 'God's people" or "God's tribe".

The deity refered to is the great God, the Lord Almighty, as was in beginning, now and ever shall be. People just buy into this garbled, pantheonic nonsense as they lack understanding of the structure...

Hello IP 149.254.235.27,
To begin with, I've moved this to the bottom, because this is the convention on Wikipedia: The newest conversation is always placed at the bottom of the page, as when the page is sufficiently filled the upper conversations are moved to an archive. Do not move it back up, please, if you do it will just be ignored.
Your points are not entirely wrong, and it is a bit bizarre that an American source was cited for an Irish translation. Standard policy is that a translation most ideally be provided by an external source, if not, then by a native speaker, if not, then by Google Translate. In this case, the reason an American source specifically was chosen is apparently because that is the first one that comes up in a Google search, and it hasn't been contested. If you can find an equally reliable source that contradicts this one, you're welcome to drop the URL here so people can discuss it. I agree that the rules sometimes result in odd decision being made, but usually they help more than they hinder.
Regarding your own etymology, you are completely correct. Tuatha means countryside, and Dé means God's, in the possessive case. This is entirely true in Modern Spoken Irish.
However, things are a little bit different with Old Irish. The preferred sources over the past century or so have translated the Old Irish Tuatha Dé Danann as The Tribe of Danu. It doesn't need to infer that Danu is a godess, and it certainly doesn't have a plural "gods", but this is what it has been interpreted as by some. The current word Tuatha (country) actually derives from the original Tuatha, which you may recognise as the term used to describe the clans of ancient Ireland. This reasoning goes hand-in-hand with why the Old Irish term for the clan chieftain, Taoiseach, is now used to designate the head of the country.
In a similar way, the Old English "hund" is the precursor to the Modern English "hound", however in Old English it actually refers to any breed of dog. As languages change over time, words come to mean different things. This is why third-party translations, especially of atypical languages, are favoured on Wikipedia articles. Wasechun tashunkaHOWLTRACK 17:15, 30 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. Very fair points. Thanks for explanation. I thought my paragraphs were deleted at first. It's only a quick opinion here, but to quote a phrase from the 'good book', some take "their refuge, the lie". The custodians who descend from the former authors in the "primordial tongue" allow it. I surmise there are good (and likely ethical) reasons to allow this, and to let the general public misapprehend the subject, even to the point of completely inaccurate translations of the very most simple, essential terms such as "God's". I don't really see why a non-native "Celticist" has to be prioritised over a simple dictionary with respect to such keywords and phrases. I do not believe the word "De" has evolved much at all over this long period referred to here. Most certainly it will not have "mutated" from meaning "God's" to "gods" or vice versa. I could find examples in the Irish throughout all periods in which these stories of TDD were recorded and De (with a fada) will remain the same. Would be interesting to establish where the error was first introduced into English translations (it may've been a simple error, the apostrophe being dropped from "God's" with the simple error then persisting. Ireland had to rewrite key elements of herself, we must be seen to have received "knowledge of the true one God" from the representative of the apostle Paul the Holy Father of the Roman Church. So Patrick is seen to bring it all. "Here Patrick, take these books and pass them back to us pretending they're yours."

If you can find a reliable source stating that, then we can look at it together. It would have to be with reference to Old Irish, however, as Modern Irish is very different in many respects. As with any translation, there is the possibility of mistranslation, and there have been alternative translations proposed over the years (it has been suggested that the Tuatha Dé Danann may be anything from fallen angels to a lost tribe of Israel!), but this is the current academic consensus both in Ireland and abroad. Certainly look into it if you want!
I think the main point here is that the notion of God referred to in this article has it's roots in pre-Christian Ireland. They suggest Danu, but note that the name "Danu" itself is a reconstruction by linguists based on the Old Irish genitive case Danann. That's the only form that exists in primary sources, so we have no real myths for a god/goddess named Danu (most of what people think is original mythology surrounding Danu has been derived from other countries' mythologies), simply that there were a people who were the "Clan/Tribe" of someone/something named Danu. For that exact reason, Danu could just as easily referred to a King, place, etc. The "Dé" is the only thing referring to a god, and it just so happens that it has been decided that said god is more likely to refer to the "Danu" noun. We simply can't know it's complete meaning, everything is guesswork. Therefore, seeing as nothing can be definitively proven, preference has been given to the translation provided by scholars. Wasechun tashunkaHOWLTRACK 18:57, 30 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Genealogy Chart[edit]

Can we have the genealogy chart fixed so it is readable? I am a genealogist and even I can't make sense of this chart. A row of vertical lines that go no where is of no use to anyone who wants to understand the mythology.

I've removed it, it's an editor's original research combining seveal sources. Doug Weller talk 12:15, 28 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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