Talk:Sakamoto Ryōma

Intro I added a first installment of information about Sakamoto Ryoma. I've read much about him and i agree with many historians that he was a Renaissance Samurai whose help in modernizing and unifying Japan was absolutely necesary. Without his help i venture to presume that Japan's fate would have been that of the rest of Asia. I have some volumes at myparents house which i need to check with before i add anymore biographical information. But the information i just added is very accurate. but PLEASE, i look forward to any updates or changes that someone else might make. Perhaps i'll learn something i didn't know already :) -jkorath

Thank you for this information about Sakamoto Ryoma. It is very concise and accurate I think. One suggestion I have is that you could add that according to the lunar calendar his date of birth and death were the same, November 15th. When I first read the article I thought your dates were wrong as many Japanese people told me his date of birth and death were November 15th. Japan was using the lunar calendar at the time of his birth and death. Even though thet use the solar calendar now they still say he died on the day he was born. I won't change the article as I'm not sure how important this is.

Date of birth

It differs from Find-A-Grave. Lincher 21:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

The date of Sakamoto Ryoma's birth is essentially unknown. It is subject to a wide range of opinions, ranging from October 1835 to November 1836.--MChew 15:51, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Question About Family Name Sequence

Can someone please fill me in on the reasoning behind transcribing the name 'last-name first'? Traditionally, the Japanese have followed the English sequence when transcribing in an English context. Does Wikipedia have a recommended standard?

DrZin

Yes, the official Wikipedia policy is that Japanese people born prior to the start of the Meiji era are listed as family name, then given name. People born after the start of the Meiji period are listed in western order. --MChew 15:49, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Research references

Could you let me know some of the texts you've used? I'm looking at doing a research paper on Sakamoto Ryoma, and I'm curious about what may not be at my local libraries.

SigurdCole 01:05, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Alexpappas01|Alexpappas01]] 18:34, 4 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexpappas01 (talk • contribs) 15:23, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Conspiracies

Ryoma's assassination likely remains among the most talked about mysteries of Japanese history. Numerous books, manga, TV programs make reference to it, suggesting various possibilities, some more probable than others. I don't know much about it, or else I would add to this article myself. But I do think it'd be great if someone more knowledgeable than myself on the subject could add a section (or a whole article) on the question of who killed Ryoma. Was it the Shinsengumi? Agents of Satsuma? The Freemasons? LordAmeth (talk) 14:13, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Here are some of the Japanese articles on the assassination of Ryoma and Nakaoka Shintaro. Most historians seem to agree that it was most likely done by a group of security guards called Kyoto Mimawarigumi ja:京都見廻組 controlled by Matsudaira Katamori who served as Kyoto Shugoshoku though this article ja:近江屋事件 does mention the Shinsengumi and agents of Satsuma. The manslayers were patrolling around Kyoto Gosho and Nijo Castle.

See also ja:船中八策 for his political views, now seen as the blueprint for the Meiji government.

[1]Shinkansen Fan (talk) 18:07, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

POV

This whole article reads like propaganda! The Meiji restoration was more modern than the Tokugawa bakufu in only minor ways. It was also more xenophobic and imperialist, unlike the bakufu which dealt with foreigners and didn't, well, invade other countries (and it wouldn't have, after Korea, it became increasingly more concerned with Japan only). But I would like to know how Ryōma was a visionary who envisioned a Japan without any feudal trappings when he supported a god Emperor and I do not know how he was inspired by the example of the United States where "all men are created equal" with a slogan like ‘revere the Emperor and expel the barbarians; it also reads as propaganda of the US which had slaves, segregation and prejudice a lot longer than most civilised nations. Also the article lacks sources.

Look at the more neutral article for Kondo Isami, who was murdered without a fair trial by the anti-bakufu forces. Nakamura Mondo (talk) 09:33, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

On first name terms with Sakamoto Ryoma?

Sakamoto Ryoma is referred to as "Ryoma". Surely it is not Wikipedia's policy to refer to people born before the Meiji era by their given name?RoniGlaser (talk) 19:30, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

It is policy on English Wikipedia to refer to people by whatever the most common name is in English language sources (see WP:COMMONNAME), regardless of how other languages work. No English Wikipedia article on persons should feature -san, -sama, or any other honorific unless the English language sources invariably refer to that person with that title (per WP:Honorifics and WP:COMMONNAME). Otherwise, we have to retitle all articles to include "Mr," "Mrs," "Ms," "Dr," "Sir," "Dame," "Prophet," "Guru," "Swami," "Father," "Bishop," etc... If this were the Japanese Wikipedia, you might have a point, but in English, using both a person's first and last name is enough of a formality when the purpose is to identify rather than flatter. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:36, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

And actually, I think it is WP: Japan policy to use given names. I don't completely agree with it, so I won't revert if someone goes changing all the Ryoma's to Sakamoto's, but someone other editor probably would. Boneyard90 (talk) 23:08, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

If it's not de jure policy, it's de facto policy: Tokugawa Ieyasu, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, and Miyamoto Musashi use their given names. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:55, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Good references

• Jensen, Marius B. (1982). Sakamoto Ryōma and the Meiji Restoration. Stanford University Press. ISBN 978-0-8047-0692-6.

First name is read"Ryuuma" in japanese. Why is it shown as Ryoma?

Hi, I'm half Japanese and have learned Japanese history/watched many period movies on this guy. But I'm not a scholar so maybe I'm missing something. Why is his name listed with an "o" pronunciation instead of "u"? Thanks, 98.169.164.190 (talk) 07:37, 3 December 2014 (UTC)Eileen

• Where did you hear that? It's definitely Ryōma. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 07:58, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
• Agree with CT. Never heard it spelled or pronounced with a "u". Ah, while it is true that the first kanji 龍 (dragon) of his name is ordinarily pronounced "ryu", established alternate pronunciations include ryo and rou, especially used in given names. - Boneyard90 (talk) 13:38, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
• Hey thanks for the replies, guys. I just remembered to check back for replies today (a full month later! duh). In any case, spurred by your comments, I went back and did some simple Japanese google searches, and it seems that in Tokyo and locales east they said "ryu". In areas west of Tokyo (as in Kansai, etc) they said "ryou". Also, the "ryou" is the original pronunciation while "ryu" is a later bastardization. Thanks again. I had no idea!!!!98.169.164.190 (talk) 00:42, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Fate/Grand Order

So basically I was playing Fate/Grand Order and a question was promopty by the character Sakamoto Ryōma in-game if I knew him. Out of curiosity I searched his Wikipedia to understand he was part responsible for the Meiji Restoration.
Scrolling down the article, something caught my eye: the "In popular culture" subheading. I wanted to quickly see if it was written that he is present within the game known as Fate/Grand Order and saw nothing there relating to it.
Immediately, I sprang to action to document his existance in Fate/Grand Order and went on to publish my revisioned edit with citation.
However, I went to look at the history of revisions to find that previous documentations of his existance in Fate/Grand Order have been deleted. And some of those undos is due to the content being deemed unnecessary?
On a side note: surely it can't be deemed as an insignificant addition to the article. Afterall, it is an appearance in popular culture. And, I did source/cite it.
If my revision does get deleted. Could I just ask why?
Cheers. Mixsmirai (talk) 13:54, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

References

• The Popular Culture sections tend to get over-burdened with every slightest mention or allusion to historical figure among thousands of manga, anime, and video games. These descriptions are often filled with unexplained details and in-universe language and other jargon, and the current listing about this "Fate/Grand Order" is no exception (i.e., what is a "four star rider-class servant"? What is a "sprite"? Why are they important and why should a reader care?). Unless it's a significant work, seen by a significant portion of the population (and not just the anime- or video game-loving population), or it's some kind of "first" or has had a significant impact on the culture, then why should it be included? It is generally enough to say a historical figure "has been included in many games, etc." A detailed list of all pop culture references would ideally have an article of its own, like the article People of the Sengoku period in popular culture. Currently there is no page for non-Sengoku figures, and when I went to start a page like that, I found it had been deleted in 2015. I have made inquiries on why it was deleted, and if it were feasible to resurrect it. In the meantime, even though I don't see any significance in the "Fate/Grand Order" mention, it is sourced, so I won't move it. If I can make a dedicated pop culture article, do you have any objection to moving the "Fate/Grand Order" paragraph there? The Cultural References section in this article would then begin with a "Main article" template, directing the reader to the pop culture article. - Boneyard90 (talk) 20:10, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

• Fair comment. Descriptions like "four star rider-class servant" can be rather cryptic to a person who does not know specific gaming terminology about that. On the other hand, a 'sprite' is a type of computer graphic. Within the game of Fate/Grand Order, Sakamoto Ryōma is not merely mentioned or allusioned to, but actually appearing as a character within the franchise. Unfortunately, as I play the game based off the North American version (which is up to 2 years behind due to translation/localisation) – and not the Japanese version – I do not know how much the character Sakamoto Ryōma actually has on the primary storyline beyond the event listed. If possible, I will maybe attempt to revise the current paragraph to provide a safer and more understandable description on his place within the game Fate/Grand Order. If you make a dedicated pop culture article for non-Sengoku era figures, I should have zero objections if my paragraph being moved there. ^^ Cheers. - Mixsmirai (talk) 09:25, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

• I would also advise you incorporate your paragraph in with the other paragraph on video games. In cultural references sections, it generally goes from literature to film, then music, and then manga, anime, and video games. Even if it doesn't strictly follow that order, similar topics should be kept together. -Boneyard90 (talk) 20:45, 16 June 2020 (UTC)