Talk:Prince of Orange

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(First comment)[edit]

I just want to say why I had to rewrite a large part of this page.

1. The original text gave the impression that the Dutch rule of succession was primogeniture with preference for males between 1815 and 1983. This is incorrect. The rule was semi-Salic until 1923, then it became primogeniture with preference for males until 1983, and now it's "gender-blind".

2. Female heirs never bore the title 'Princess of Orange'. Nevertheless, they were (and are) often called Princess of Orange by the popular press, but this is the same as the British tabloids calling Diana, Princess of Wales "Princess Diana". Erwin 19:19, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Clean-up of "The Princes of Orange" section[edit]

The section "The Princes of Orange" needs to be cleaned up, in particular the paragraph starting with "After the death of Willem III..." See also the note inserted between HTML comment tags in that paragraph. ··· rWd · Talk ··· 10:35, 3 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Imho the "princes of Orange" section has now been fairly cleaned up, so the cleaning message could be removed. Mvdleeuw 13:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Grant and courtesy[edit]

This part "In the 19th century the female variant of the title was also sometimes specifically granted to the heir apparent's wife. Instead of gaining the title by courtesy, it has to be granted to wives. Princess Máxima, wife of the current heir apparent, Prince Willem-Alexander, does not bear the title." is not right. The two 19th century Princesses of Orange bore the title by courtesy. It wasn't granted. Princess Maxima was granted the title Princess of the Netherlands in her own right, something that never happened before to wives of Dutch Princes. The fact that the Orange title wasn't included in the grant doesn't prevent her from using "Princess of Orange" as a courtesy title however. However she chooses not to do so. I'll remove the text.Gerard von Hebel 22:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Use by the House of Hohenzollern[edit]

After the death of William III in 1702 the King in Prussia advanced claims to Orange as senior cognatic heir. He added "Sovereign Prince of Orange" to his list of titles and this continued to be borne by his descendants until 1918[1]. All well and good. However, Paul Theroff's Online Gotha seems to suggest that "Prince of Orange" was used as a title for the eldest son of the heir-apparent, as well (as the eldest son of the French Dauphin was styled "Duc de Bourgogne"). Is there any other evidence for this usage? It seems to have ceased by the nineteenth century.

List of eldest sons of Prussian heirs-apparent:

Opera hat (talk) 09:24, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above has been copied and pasted from Talk:Princes of Orange. Opera hat (talk) 13:41, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Twice[edit]

Article needs a bit of a merge as the same information is relayed in the bit above and the bit below all the people holding the title through the ages. Deadstar (talk) 16:52, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Princess of Orange[edit]

Wilhelmina, Juliana and Beatrix have never been "Princess of Orange", therefore they should not be mentioned as such. See also Princess of Orange Mvdleeuw (talk) 13:36, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

First, Second, Third, etc. House of Orange, House of Orange-Nassau van Mecklenburg, van Lippe, van Amsberg[edit]

I have moved the follwing remark from the article page to this page:

"I've left this title in as it seems to be very important to someone to have it here: they keep adding it in when I erase it. However, I can find no references to the House of Orange being referred to by this name, or the idea of a "creation" of different houses to hold the title by a monarch such as in the British Peerages. If you ask a Dutchman what is the name of the Royal House, you will get "van Oranje-Nassau" and likely a rousing chorus of "Oranje Boven". If you ask about Mecklenburg, Lippe-Beisterfeld or Amsberg, you will get a puzzled look and some unprintable references to Germans (although Prince Claus is still very well respected). The Dutch nation is long reconciled that the heritage of William the Silent passes through the female equally well to the male, and see it all as one. I base this on but my personal experience: I have a statistically significant sample space, and a 100% agreement on the above. Also the website of the Dutch Royal House (cited) does not make this distinction either. One would think that is the most authoritative source of what they call themselves. JMvanDijk."

I totally agree with this remark and I have removed the nonsense Wikipedia inventions in the article. Mr. D. E. Mophon (talk) 14:18, 23 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nesle claim[edit]

In 1673, the heiress-general of Guy, the younger son of Marie des Baux, was Jeanne, marchioness of Nesle (d 1713).

Her grandson via her eldest son was Louis (1689-1764) who had no sons. As the female succession is accepted, the claim from him descended to his grandson the "Demi-Louis" count of Vintimille-Luc and then through his descendants, who are numerous.

However, upon the sonless death of Louis in 1764, another grandson of marchioness Jeanne, namely Louis de Mailly (d 1767, grandson via Jeanne's younger son) started to use the titles of Prince of Orange and Neuchatel. His son Louis Joseph (d 1810) did not have sons. Louis Joseph's descent (he was great-grandfather of duke Max in Bavaria) in primogeniture passed to the Urach family and is today represented by Patrick Guinness, whose heirship to Neuchatel however comes from another, better-entitled descent.

After Louis-Joseph, yet another agnatic branch of the Mailly-Nesle, this time a branch not descended from marchioness Jeanne, heiress of Orange claim (d 1713), started to use the title of Prince of Orange. Guy de Mailly is the current head of that branch. 88.195.126.19 (talk) 16:39, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A genealogy of the Mailly family is here: http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Mailly.pdf. Opera hat (talk) 11:09, 5 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Rival claims[edit]

The fact that both the House of Orange-Nassau and the House of Prussia use this title does not indicate rival claims. It is done by agreement. When the original Principality was annexed by France and William III died childless, both Houses claimed the title, but they agreed to a settlement of partition later. An entirely new (though not sovereign) Principality of Orange was created, consisting of a few jurisdictions in Gelre (Formerly of the southern Netherlands but Prussian since 1713) and the several Lordships owned by the Dutch Stadtholders. This new "Principality" was purely symbolic and partitioned in the sense that the Gelre jurisdictions constituted the Prussian part and the Nassau Lordships, the Dutch part. There are some more issues with the article. I hope too look into that soon. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 17:50, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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First Prince of Orange[edit]

The House of Baux section says that Bertrand I of Baux was created Prince of Orange in 1173; but also that "After the death of his brother-in-law, Raimbaut, Count of Orange, the County of Orange was elevated to a principality in 1163 by the Holy Roman Emperor Frederick I". Raimault died in 1173, so there is a 10 year discrepancy here. Was Bertrand named Prince while Raimbault was still count? How would Raimbault have felt about that, I wonder? Was Raimbault the first Prince in 1163, and Bertrand only inherited the title in right of his wife ten years later? Or are the dates just wrong? Does anybody know? Moonraker12 (talk) 23:00, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:41, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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