Talk:Homosexuality in ancient Greece

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 30 August 2021 and 8 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Keithh5678.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 22:34, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 29 March 2021 and 7 June 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Zmm98.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 23:49, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Intersex or non-binary persons

The many current writings on gender fluidity, and about the advisability of surgical treatment for those who are anatomically different from perceived norms, give the impression that genital ambiguity is quite common. I am interested in knowing what the physicians of antiquity said and wrote, about these topics? The concept of hermaphrodism existed in their mythology, so its existence in real life must have been a topic of interest, but I have never seen it mentioned. Janice Vian, Ph.D. (talk) 05:17, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Erastes and Eromenos: The Ancient Greek Terminology Implied Mentor-Mentored Relationship, Not Sexual Bonding

I am questioning the accuracy of anformation on a Wikipedia Page, full of biased secondary sources and obvious mistranslations of ancient Greek Texts

The whole conclusion of this page is based on obvious misinterpretations of ancient Greek texts

The relationship between erastes and eromenos in Sparta serves as a noteworthy illustration of the cultural values attached to such mentorship in ancient Greece. Erastes-eromenos relationships in Sparta were expected to be devoid of any sexual undertones, and any instances of sexual behavior between the two were deemed reprehensible, an abomination, akin to incestuous behavior and were banned.

"The customs instituted by Lycurgus were opposed to all of these. If someone, being himself an honest man, admired a boy's soul and tried to make of him an ideal friend without reproach and to associate with him, he approved, and believed in the excellence of this kind of training. But if it was clear that the attraction lay in the boy's outward beauty, he banned the connexion as an abomination; and thus he caused lovers (erastes) to abstain from boys no less than parents abstain from sexual intercourse with their children and brothers and sisters with each other."

-Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaimonians 2.13

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0210:text=Const.+Lac.:chapter=2:section=13

Before that part Xenophon said:

"[12]I think I ought to say something also about intimacy with boys (pederasty), since this matter also has a bearing on education."

In his work, Xenophon addresses the topic of love with boys, which he refers to as "παιδικῶν ἐρώτων" (paedikōn erōtōn) in Greek, a compound word meaning "lover of boys." However, it is important to note that Xenophon's use of this term did not imply any sexual connotation, but rather referred to a loving mentorship relationship between a mentor (erastēs) and a mentored individual (eromenos).

In fact, Xenophon explicitly states that any sexual behavior in this "pederastic" relationship is considered "an abomination," equivalent to incest. This clarification demonstrates Xenophon's belief that "pederasty", as he understood it, was solely an educational and mentorship practice, rather than a sexual one. Therefore, it is crucial to acknowledge the distinction between Xenophon's interpretation of "pederasty" and the modern connotation of the term, which is typically associated with sexual relationships between older men and young boys.

The texts clearly state that Erastes-Eromenos relationships in ancient Athens and Sparta were characterized as non-sexual, and instead were seen as a form of mentoring or friendship similar to that between a father and son

"Thus, then, as it seems, you will lay down the law in the city that we are founding, that the lover (erastes/mentor) may kiss and pass the time with and touch the beloved (eromenos/mentored) as a father would a son, for honorable ends, if he persuade him. But otherwise he must so associate with the objects of his care that there should never be any suspicion of anything further,"

Plato, Republic  3.403b

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0168%3Abook%3D3%3Asection%3D403b

I explain more on my blog so i won't spam here how most of the stuff on this page are completely inaccurate.

https://genes-of-the-ancients.blogspot.com/2023/04/the-myth-of-openly-ancient-greek.html Itisme3248 (talk) 05:27, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

The whole point of wikipedia is to represent the consensus of reliable secondary sources. If you think that the majority of secondary sources disagree with this article, then please provide those sources. If you just think that the majority of classicists are misinterpreting the evidence, then you are going to need to get reliable sources, not just your blog, to start publishing your arguments, before Wikipedia starts to report on them. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 11:42, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

This article is in quite poor shape. It relies heavily on a few secondary sources without providing primary greek references to the claims in the body. A lot of weasely claims about how widespread and accepted sexual pederasty was. And half the article is pure speculation about supposed homosexual relationships among famous figures. Academic fanfic is not encyclopedic 2601:1C0:CF01:3AE0:F8A0:5B22:3D6C:4A52 (talk) 06:52, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedians and News Media in general seem to love Academic fanfic. They might as well claim that Conspiracy books about the flat earth are a good source because they are published books and accepted by millions of people. Itisme3248 (talk) 00:25, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Heracles & Hylas

Love between adult men section could be extended to include Heracles and Hylas, if anyone can be bothered to research it and write it. I am lazy. 110.22.20.63 (talk) 00:18, 17 June 2023 (UTC)