Talk:Barbary Wars

XYZ Affair

The XYZ Affair and "millions for defense" happened during the Adams administration and led to the U.S. French Naval War (1798-1800), which is different than the Barbary Wars. Kauffner (talk) 09:37, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

General overview of the Barbary Wars

This page served as a general overview of the Barbary wars with links to each war as well as the Barbary corsairs and other topics for the longest time with no perceived problems, let alone actual problems.. Many pages link to Barbary wars e.g. Captain Smith served in the Barbary Wars. Both wars involved basically the same things. There is no need for a redirect, and no need to fix what wasn't broke. I do a lot of writing about this era -- now I have to go through dozens of pages and fix links(?) and indicate and link to both wars in one sentence. e.g. Captain Smith served in the First Barbary War and the Second Barbary War. No thanks. This page with its many links to other pages suited readers and editors just fine. -- Gwillhickers 16:39, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

How exactly did America have victory when the barbary countries declared victory

Libyan kid 543 (talk) 16:21, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Was Tunis really part of the Barbary Wars ?

Tunis is seldomly mentioned as a belligerent in the articles and usually just lumped as part of the ottoman empire in north africa. I also found this extract from the book of french historian Henry Durant in 1858, Notice sur la régence de Tunis, page 16: "Tunis, in general, did not indulge in piracy like Algiers: if later, it also had some corsairs, it was only to defend itself against the Christians, more barbarians at that time than the Africans, since the piracy was still a trade among Cypriots, Catalans, Sicilians, Venetians, Pisans and Genoese."

From french "Tunis, en général, ne se livrait pas comme Alger à la piraterie: si plus tard elle eut aussi quelques corsaires, ce ne fut que pour se défendre contre les chrétiens, plus barbares à cette époque que les Africains, puisque la piraterie était encore un métier chez les Cypriotes, les Catalans, les Siciliens, les Vénitiens, les Pisans et les Génois."

If so I would like to remove it as a belligerent in this conlict.

References

Mistakes

The page is full of minor mistakes, but one of them is unbelievable. "The main purpose of their attacks was to capture European slaves for the Arab slave market in North Africa." There was NO single European slave in Europe. The correct phrase is: "To enslave Europeans". They weren't slaves as the Africans who were bought and brought to Americas. So the phrase is a major mistake. It gives the impression that they captured slaves, they did not. They enslaved people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.4.100.152 (talk) 14:23, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Tunisian flag till 1831.svg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 02:54, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Why is Morocco listed as a belligerent

Morocco signed a treaty of friendship with the US in 1784 and never waged war with the US (treaty is officially unbroken). 82.41.110.187 (talk) 20:55, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Death count

There were 54 people killed in the sinking of the USS Philadelphia alone, so the overall count of “45” is completely laughable. 2001:1970:5163:1200:0:0:0:E6B (talk) 13:37, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Flag of Tunisia

I am confused why the wrong flag of Tunisia continues to be used. Even the name of the file is labeled as the Tripoli flag in contrary to the one I added which is the true flag of Tunis. 184.145.1.59 (talk) 00:06, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 00:29, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

February 2024

@Jab1998: what part of my edit summary about seeking consensus for the result didn't you understand? I know for a fact that there is at least one editor (Humbler21) who disagrees with you, so I suggest you refrain from edit warring. M.Bitton (talk) 03:00, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

You can’t disagree with facts. Disagreeing with facts just makes you wrong. The conflict ultimately ended in 1815 with the pirates being defeated which makes the Barbary Wars a US victory. Read the wiki article on second Barbary war if you doubt me Jab1998 (talk) 03:06, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

I suggest you read WP:CONSENSUS. M.Bitton (talk) 03:08, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

So if someone says the Allies did not win World War Two, do we need to negotiate with that person? They’re clearly wrong in such a statement. If you disagree with facts you are just wrong. “Opinions ” which run contrary to historical facts should not carry any weight. Read the second Barbary war article or do a quick google search if you doubt that the conflict ultimately ended as a US victory Jab1998 (talk) 03:13, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't waste my time with edit warriors. You have now been reported. M.Bitton (talk) 03:19, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

The First Barbary War did not end in a US victory, as there was still ransom being paid (being called ransom and not tribute). FIREYSUNSET (talk) 06:39, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Stop sabotaging the results section

This article has read “US victory” in the results section for years. As a history teacher with a masters degree in history I can confirm this is accurate. Read the wiki page on the second Barbary war if you doubt me. The conflict ultimately ended with the US defeating the pirates once and for all in 1815. Stop sabotaging the article Jab1998 (talk) 03:05, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

It was the British that did so, and even so, the barbary attacks and tribute did not end until the french conquest in 1830, the US did win in the second barbary war, but did not defeat Algiers "once and for all", i'm opposed to your change. Nourerrahmane (talk) 03:13, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

The British were not involved in the second Barbary war. The second Barbary war was intended to end piracy of US ships. It was not a war to end all piracy in the region. This article is about specifically the conflict between the us and Barbary pirates, not Barbary piracy as a whole. Ultimately the US won this conflict once and for all in 1815 and the piracy issue ended, for the US at least Jab1998 (talk) 03:17, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

well, again, it's up to consensus, i think i said my part Nourerrahmane (talk) 03:23, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

They were not, but this article is about the barbary wars, and not the second barbary war. Again, the US did not defeat the Algiers once and for all and did not conclude the barbary wars, it was the british who did in the anglo dutch expedition of 1816, even there we can't talk about "ending barbary piracy or slavery", the rest are just your assumptions that i don't feel obliged to share. Nourerrahmane (talk) 03:20, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

It’s about the US-Barbary wars not Barbary piracy as a whole. The US victory in the second Barbary war ended the US-Barbary conflict, therefore the conflict ultimately ended as an American victory. Sure Barbary pirates continued to be a problem for Europeans and Britain bombarded them in 1816 but that is irrelevant since this article is about the period of conflict between the US and the pirate Jab1998 (talk) 03:24, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

You mean US participation was over right ? [1][2] Nourerrahmane (talk) 03:27, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

This entire page is just about US-Barbary war. Not Barbary piracy as a whole. That’s why Britain isn’t listed as a combatant Jab1998 (talk) 03:31, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

In case you're still not convinced [3]. However, according to the three sources, it's clear that 1815 marks the end of US participation and not the barbary wars as a whole, so britain and the nertherlands need to be listed, and a section about the bombardement of 1816 should be added. @M.Bitton your opinion ? Nourerrahmane (talk) 03:35, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

If you were making an article about all conflict involving barbary pirates then yes. This article however has always been strictly about the US-Barbary conflict. Jab1998 (talk) 03:45, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Not it's not, it's about the "Barbary wars". One more thing, numerous sources indicate that the barbary wars actually started in 1785 and was declared by Algiers and not the tripolitan war, so we're talking about a series of 3 seperate wars, where the US was defeated in 2 of them or the 1st one at least, this can't be ignored especially with the time lapse between each one of them, their results should be added in the infobox since this article is about the 3 of them. I suggest you don't bludgeone the process with your repeated answers and not edit war. Nourerrahmane (talk) 03:52, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes the “Barbary wars” between the US and the pirates. This article has always been about the US-Barbary conflict not the Barbary piracy issue as a whole. Kinda like how the war on terror article is about the US led campaign against terrorists and it is not about all campaigns from all nations against all terrorist organizations. Regarding 1785, technically they declared war against the US but the US did not engage in combat and opted to just pay tribute because the US lacked a proper navy. In a war there needs to be combat between two opposing forces and this didn’t start until Thomas Jefferson’s presidency Jab1998 (talk) 03:56, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

The US completely won the 1815 war and also won a temporary victory the 1801-1805 war. The goal of the 1801-1805 war was to end tribute payments amd attacks on US shipping. The war ended American tribute but attacks eventually resumed thus leading to the 1815 war. The 1785 “war” didn’t actually see the us engaging in combat Jab1998 (talk) 03:58, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Either way, this article again has always been about just the conflict between Barbary pirates and the US and that conflict ultimately ended in 1815 with the US defeating the pirates. Sure they continued to fight Europeans but that is irrelevant as far as this article is concerned. Hence by Britain is not in the combatants section Jab1998 (talk) 04:00, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Dey of Algiers declared war on the US, their were US casualties and US asked for a peace treaty which was signed and payed large tribute, the 1st barbary war is definately not a US victory the war with Algiers was a victory for the US, British and Dutch navies per sources, with 1815 marking the end of US participation. Again per sources, the only irrelevent thing here are your replies since they contradict sources, i guess i won't reply to those repeated replies of yours, my point here is clear and it's up for other editors to participate per WP:concensus. Nourerrahmane (talk) 04:06, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Here’s a source for you:

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1801-1829/barbary-wars

its from the US State Department’s history page. It lists the 1801-1805 and 1815 wars as American victories. It also notes that no American ships were seized after 1815. This article is about the US-Barbary Conflict and not all conflicts involving Barbary pirates. Similar to how the war on terror page is about the US led campaign of counter terrorism and is not about all counter terror campaigns undergone by all nations against all terrorist organizations Jab1998 (talk) 04:13, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

When I say “this article” after making the point about no ship seizures post 1815, I mean this wiki article Jab1998 (talk) 04:14, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't care about US point of view, i care about scholarly sources, per WP:RS and many sources affirm this was not a US victory, and i don't know why you're trying to feed us your silly comparisons with terrorism, the barbary states were organized states which had effective and internationally recognized governments with a clear foreign policy, you don't need to throw your political bias in history related articles per WP:NEUTRAL. Nourerrahmane (talk) 04:21, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

It’s not a silly comparison it’s a spot on comparison. By the way, the source I put mentions the 1785 “war” and notes the US was unable to fight back because Congress would not fund a navy so the US negotiated a treaty instead. You can’t have a war if one side isn’t fighting Jab1998 (talk) 04:24, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

I’m not showing political bias. I’m showing a dedication to historical facts. Again for the one millionth time; this article is about the US-Barbary conflict. It is not about all conflicts involving Barbary pirates or a history of piracy in the region Jab1998 (talk) 04:25, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Maybe this comparison will sit better with you. The Cold War article is about the specific Cold War between the US and the Soviet Union from 1945 to 1991. It is not about all cold wars and periods of heightened tension that ever existed between nations. Just like how this article is about the American-Barbary conflict and not all conflicts that happen to involve Barbary pirates attacking ships Jab1998 (talk) 04:28, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

It seems awfully awkward that you are trying to fall under the stereotype that many Europeans have of the United States where many Americans insist that other countries played no role or were irrelevant in World War II, but applying that mentality towards historical events. The Second Barbary War had Britain and the Netherlands as co-belligerents FIREYSUNSET (talk) 06:47, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

According to Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, they identify as the winner of the Battle of Borodino. Most scholarly sources do not identify them as the winner. FIREYSUNSET (talk) 06:37, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

@Nourerrahmane: unfortunately, they reverted your edit. Clearly, they are only here to impose their POV through an edit war. M.Bitton (talk) 03:26, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

It’s about preventing sabotage Jab1998 (talk) 03:27, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Britain isn’t even listed in the combatants section. You are right that there was conflict involving Barbary pirates and Europeans after the 1815 US war. However this page is strictly about the US-Barbary conflict which started under Thomas Jefferson and ended in 1815. This page is not about all conflicts involving Barbary pirates. As far as the US-Barbary conflict is concerned, it ultimately ended in 1815. The US won the 1815 war, therefore the US ultimately won the Barbary wars conflict that this article is about Jab1998 (talk) 03:30, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

You deserve to be blocked again, indefinitely, if you make any more ultranationalistic edits. I will monitor every single edit your account makes. I will make sure to report you immediately if there is any ultranationalist behavior. Pretty much everyone else here has basically repeated what I told you in November 2023 ad nauseam. FIREYSUNSET (talk) 06:41, 3 April 2024 (UTC)