Talk:Yagyū Jūbei Mitsuyoshi

Untitled

In pop culture Jubei always wears an eyepatch. Does anyone know if this has historical precedence? --Feitclub 04:01, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)

The Japanese Wikipedia states that "He is often portrayed with a patch over one eye; this is said to be because he lost his vision during his youth when, while practicing with his father Munenori, he was hit in the eye with a bokken." Not a definitive answer, unfortunately. Fg2 04:55, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)

One of the manga I have states that "there is no definitive proof of how Jubei lost his eye, if indeed he did." It also speculated that it's a holdover from kabuki exaggerations.--Mitsukai 19:08, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

as Legend... he was the first user in real life with a historical record of eye martial art techniques.

PadmaPhala (talk) 13:49, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

"Lone Wolf and Cub"?

The article contains the sentence, "Yagyu Jubei is also featured in other manga, anime and video games, ranging from the epic work, Lone Wolf and Cub to the modern parody Jubei-chan (where a young girl from modern times becomes the successor to the 300-year-old Yagyu clan)." I'm not familiar with the "epic work" (the book), but in the jidaigeki, it's a different Yagyu, not Jubei. Can anyone confirm whether it's Jubei who appears in the book?

I haven't read the original manga but I know the guy has two eyes, no eyepatch. Doesn't sound like Yagyu Jubei to me. --Feitclub 20:26, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

It's supposed to be Jubei. The work just went with the alternative view that Jubei didn't lose his eye. But yes, that's Jubei.--Mitsukai 19:09, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Actually the thing about Lone Wolf and Cub is wrong. The main enemy for Ogami Itto is Yagyu Retsudo, who was Jubei's younger brother. Considering that in the manga Retsudo is a very old man, and Jubei died in his forties, the story would be taking place long after Jubei's death. One of Retsudo's sons, named Yagyu Gunbei fights with Itto. The name of the character is probably a tribute to Jubei, (although the two have very different natures), and also is the source of the confusion on this matter.

Retsudo loses his eye about halfway through the series in one of his encounters with the protagonist Lone Wolf and wears an eyepatch for the remainder, but I don't know how much of that is an intentional reference and can't remember from memory if Jubei is ever in the story, except that the entire Yagyu clan is wiped out by the end. -Insomniac By Choice 20:26, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Jubei in Ninja Scroll

I removed the Ninja Scroll Jubei reference because that character is named Jubei Kibegami. DarkSoldier 10:43, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

But it is a clear reference to the character... I will put it back, but state the character was done as a homage. - UnlimitedAccess 14:46, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Jubee" vs. "Jubei"

As far as I know (and that's what name my name dictionary and the Japanese Wikipedia article say too), in Japanese, his middle name is written with the less common vowel prolongation -ee instead of the usual -ei. So, it's supposed to be Jubee, not Jubei.

It looks like Jubei is a common romanisation outside Japan, though, so it might be okay to use it here. But I think it should at least be mentioned that the name is normally written "Jubee". I had a hard time finding it as "じゅべい" when I tried looking it up once. --84.227.154.98 23:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

thanks... -- Elvenmuse (talk) 11:57, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

ei = ee

PadmaPhala (talk) 13:51, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

It should be noted that while the name is most commonly romanized as "Jubei" (how/why this came about, I do not know and cannot understand or imagine) in English (indeed any Western) texts, this article uses Hepburn romanization. Writing Jūbei, is to mix accurate Hepburn, with the inaccurate common romanization. It is completely inconsistent. You can write "Jubei", arguing that this is the common romanization, but then you would have to consistently apply that romanization style/method, not only throughout his whole name, but also throughout the article, with every name in it. (whilst also noting, somewhere, that "Jubei" is actually Jūbē) Otherwise, it has to be written as Jūbē. (well, I think Wapuro vowel romanization, is actually superior in every way, but…)--213.113.123.236 (talk) 07:37, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

ei ≠ ee. Not ever. Ei can be pronounced as a long 'e' …but it is no less common to pronounce it as as 'ei'. Either way, though both おお and おう are romanized as ō/ô (or, as I prefer, oo and ou), えい is not, using any romanization system anywhere, ever written as ee/ē/ê. Only ええ is. As such, べい = bei, whilst べえ = bee/bē/bê.--213.113.123.236 (talk) 07:37, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

The kanji character in question (衞) is romanized as "ei": http://rut.org/cgi-bin/j-e/jis/nocolor/dosearch?sName=on&H=PW&L=J&T=%1B%24B1R%1B%28B&WC=none

It is used in many Japanese terms such as "衛星 eisei [えいせい] satellite" and "自衛 jiei [じえい] self-defense", along with many others terms and names.

Romanizing 十兵衛 as Jubei is the most common and is as accurate as Jubee, just as it is with similar names ending with the same 2 kanji (兵衛) like...

安兵衛 Yasubei [やすべい] / Yasubee [やすべえ] http://rut.org/cgi-bin/j-e/jis/nocolor/dosearch?sName=on&H=PW&L=J&T=%1B%24B0BJ%3C1R%1B%28B&WC=none

源兵衛 Genbei [げんべい] / Genbee [げんべえ] http://rut.org/cgi-bin/j-e/jis/nocolor/dosearch?sName=on&H=PW&L=J&T=%1B%24B8%3BJ%3C1R%1B%28B&WC=none Chanbara (talk) 18:00, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:SonnyChibaSamuraiReincarnationScreenShot.jpg

Image:SonnyChibaSamuraiReincarnationScreenShot.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 05:36, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:SonnyChibaSamuraiReincarnationScreenShot.jpg

Image:SonnyChibaSamuraiReincarnationScreenShot.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 05:06, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Mitsuyoshi or Mitsutoshi

(Originally posted on Talk:Yagyū Muneyoshi.)

Throughout Wikipedia, 柳生宗厳 is referred to as Yagyu Muneyoshi, and his grandsons 三厳 and 利厳 are known as Mitsuyoshi and Toshiyoshi, respectively. This represents common usage in English sources, and in many Japanese sources as well.

The problem is, common usage is most likely wrong. Among the Yagyu family, these names are "Munetoshi", "Mitsutoshi", and "Toshitoshi", as can be seen here.

The case for Muneyoshi When historians came across the name 宗厳, they weren't exactly sure how to read it. The first character was probably "Mune", but the second one was difficult. No furigana was provided in any Yagyu family records. In the Kansei Choshu Shokafu, a record of family lineages made in the late 18th century, furigana reading "yoshi" was provided for 宗厳 (Imamura, 1973). In the Dai-Kanwa Jiten, the largest Japanese Chinese character dictionary, 厳 is given possible name readings kane, tsuyo, and yoshi, among others. As a result, many Japanese publications use the "yoshi" reading of the character for these names. In fact, Japanese Wikipedia uses that reading.

The case for Munetoshi In his 1973 book Yagyu historian Imamura Yoshio actually suggests that "Munetoshi", etc., be used rather than "Muneyoshi." There are a number of very good reasons for this. For one, the Yagyu family uses the "toshi" reading. This by itself might not be very persuasive (although perhaps it should be), but as a check of the Shinkage Ryu lineage will show, the 厳 element, and it's reading as "toshi", goes all the way back every generation to 宗厳 himself (indeed, even past him to his own father, Ietoshi).

A most interesting example concerns Yagyu Hyogonosuke (Toshitoshi)'s second son, Toshikata (利方). This "toshi" is written 利, which is very common, and comes from Hyogonosuke's own name, 利厳. However, in the Renya-ou Ichidaiki (Life of the Venerable Renya), written in 1846 by many times removed descendant of Renya, "Toshikata" is mistakenly written 厳方, using the 厳 character for the "Toshi".

Of similar interest is that the Edo Yagyu line, after Yagyu Muneari, also begins a tradition of a "toshi" element in their names, although this "toshi" is rendered using the character 俊.

In his case for using "toshi" rather than "yoshi", Imamura further mentions that the hiragana よ is derived from a broken-down, cursive calligraphic form of 与. But one reading of 与 is "to". It's possible that, back in the 1780s, when Japanese orthographic rules were actually more just a number of common conventions, that someone wrote shorthand 与之 intending it to be read as "とし" toshi, but modern historians, following the stricter orthography of their day, misread it as "よし" yoshi. If that's the case, even the lone attested historical example of "yoshi" would actually reflect usage within the Yagyu family.

These days, the "toshi" reading is making inroads in Japan, particularly after some publications by the Yagyu family have gotten the "toshi" readings out there. I would say that "Muneyoshi", etc., is still in the majority in the Japanese literature, but it is by no means universal anymore.

My feeling is, at the moment the literature, in both English and Japanese, is so small and specialized that this is a situation where "ignore all rules" can be applied. The "yoshi" spread when information on Shinkage Ryu and the Yagyu family was still sparse. There's more information out there now, and the case for "toshi" seems much stronger. This is not a case, like Sun Tzu/Sunzi, where an alternate romanization for the same pronunciation is more widely known, but a case when early information was mistaken, and is in the process of being corrected. Re-directs for "yoshi" variants will solve the issue of any people using outdated material, and a small note in each entry can explain the discrepancy.

I'll copy this post into the Yagyu Jubei Mitsuyoshi and Yagyu Hyogonosuke Talk pages. After a period of time, if there are no objections, I'd like to edit to reflect the "toshi" reading.

My sources are 柳生遺聞 Yagyū Ibun, 1973 Imamura Yoshio (K.K. Elm), and for the 連也翁一代記 Renya-ou Ichidaiki, I referred to 資料　柳生新陰流 Shiryō Yagyū Shinkage-ryū, a collection of historical documents compiled and edited by Imamura Yoshio, and published in 1967 by K.K. Jinbutsu Ouraisha. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JReyer (talk • contribs) 13:29, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

This should be in the article. At the very least as a note under Mitsuyoshi.

--PadmaPhala (talk) 15:44, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

月之抄 vs 月見の諸

I believe the correct title of the book is 月之抄, not 月見の諸. I haven't been able to find any reference to a 月見の諸 outside of English language media, all of which seem to link back to this page as their source. There are several Japanese sources confirming the existence of 月之抄 with Jubei credited as the author. I'm not sure which would be the most appropriate source in this situation. Perhaps this one? http://iss.ndl.go.jp/books/R100000002-I000001191281-00 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kailan7401 (talk • contribs) 23:23, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

It is 月見の諸, last kanji uncertain... the title of the book in japanese media is incorrect.

how I know this will be left... to time to prove, atm it is "my own research".

侍仏陀画実蓮です。

PadmaPhala (talk) 13:54, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

PadmaPhala (talk) 05:55, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Grave

Just curious what the source is about him being buried in a town called Ohkawahara Mura. I don't know if he was buried there initially and moved later, but now his grave is behind Hotokuji in Yagyu village sort of in front and to the right of his father's grave. I'd been under the impression he's always been there but I could be wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Erokengo (talk • contribs) 06:17, 16 February 2017 (UTC)