Talk:Totem

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 August 2021 and 10 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Palpatine824. Peer reviewers: LimeGreenGiraffe.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 11:32, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

African origin?

The article has been changed to say that the word totem is of African origin. Can anyone verify this? silsor 20:45, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)

North American Totem Poles

I removed the language discussing chinese totem poles. The heading is "North American." A comparison of different types of totem poles (especially when such comparisons include totem poles with origins outside of North America) should not appear under the "North American" section, but rather under a "comparison" heading.

I think the totem pole section should either be extended or removed entirely. The thing reads like a retarded children's book. "They may have arms, legs, and wings." Really, how interesting. 68.103.235.157 (talk) 06:08, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Examples, please!

what about maori totem's?- they're everywhere in NZ

" Similar totemism-like beliefs have been historically found throughout much of the world, including Western Europe, Eastern Europe, Africa, and the Arctic polar region."

Africa, I believe. But Europe? I'd really like to see some examples!Djadek 00:03, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Do you think heraldic charges were chosen just for looks? —Charles P. (Mirv) 07:50, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Examples are good, but I don't think a Disney movie is a good one to start off with. KyleGarvey 23:51, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

totem, totemism, totem pole

I'm having a hard time relating the ideas in these three articles. They seem to be describing three completely different concepts. If they're really unrelated, that should be explained. If they are in fact related, then there's something wrong with the articles. The totemism article says the word comes from an Ojibwe word, but the totem article seems to imply that it's from Chinese. Or is the Chinese word totim actually derived from the English word totem? I think this should be clarified. --Bcrowell 15:51, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

--Just the artic region is mentioned? There are many places thoughout Asia (besides china) who have a rich history is totemism. Many altaic regions, as well and the Ainu natives of Japan are famous for their totems.

totems

If it would be of interest to anyone, I would be happy to write up and add information regarding the different totems, i.e., Bear's medicine is intellectuality and self-healing, as well as love. Porcupine's medicine is innocence, coming from the habit of porcupine to 'mind it's own business', if you are observant and gentle, you can actually pet a porcupine without getting hurt, but if you are careless, or intend to harm, you will draw back a handfull of quills. --Sumariel-- 00:06, 22 Aug 2005 EDT

The problem is that different totems have different meaning depending on what culture or tribe you are dealing with. The mythology is different. For example, I don't agree with what you stated above about Bear. Therefore, it would not be helpful in a generic sense. ~ True Dog 13:50, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I edited the totem article to bring it into line with traditional usage and definition (as cited) of the word totem as well as making it consistant with the totemism article which is quite good. I deleted reference to the Disney movie (which someone else had objected to) as it just continues the misrepresentation and misunderstanding of what a totem is. Disney is not a satisfactory source for reference, for goodness sake! Furthermore, I clarified the section on new age usage of animals being referenced as totems by individuals and offered alternate verbage that people can use. Even Harner doesn't call them totems. I also added an addition to the Chinese totem article which claims that culture as the longest totemic culture at 5,000 years. I would be happy to have my note of American Indian totemic useage of 10,000 years removed if the Chinese claim is likewise removed. At least provide a citation for such a claim. ~ True Dog 14:03, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

This comment 'Contemporary neoshamanic, New Age, and mythopoetic men's movements not otherwise involved in the practice of a tribal religion have been known to use "totem" terminology for the personal identification with a tutelary spirit or guide, however this is generally seen by the originating cultures as cultural misappropriation.' is untrue. It is more true to say that many anthropology academics or other western academics who do not believe in a spiritual dimension believe the use of this particular word is cultural appropriation. It is not just indigenous tribal communities that have a history, tradition and belief in animal spirit animals. The heraldic tradition in europe is an obvious example. also modern society takes as much from classical pagan civilizations who are infused with animist beliefs as it does form Judaeo-Christianity. Even within Judaeo- christian belief system you can feel the animist origins infusing through with references such as lion of Judah. Semantics and the evolution of word association and meaning is confusing those with no no spiritual and deep understanding to a true understanding of totem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.238.74.21 (talk) 18:44, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Tu Teng

The Chinese word "tu teng" is a transliterated loanword which did not exist as a term until modern times. While the first character does mean "image", it's either a complete coincidence or, more likely, a witty choice of word chosen by early translators. The pronunciation similarity between "tu teng" and totem is, of course, completely unremarkable. I've removed the sentences suggesting such. Uly 09:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

This strategy of forming neologisms which retain a phonetic resemblance to the source but are also (partly) meaningful in terms of the language of the neologism, hence are camouflaged loanwords, is well-known in Mandarin Chinese, by the way. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 15:59, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

The History of 'Totemism'

The word 'totem' was taken from the Ojibwa, an Algonquin language of North America. In 1791, the English trader and interpreter J. Long, working with a group of Jesuits to study the Ojibwa, mistranslated the expression ototeman (meaning approximately 'he/she is a relative of mine', from the root -ote-, the relationship between oneself and a relative). Long confused the naming of clans after animals with Ojibwa beliefs about personal guardian animals, for which the only known term is the semantically unrelated word nigouimes, naming both phenomena toodaim, dodaim, or totam. 'Totemism', along with 'fetishism' and 'animism', was thence a common discovery of nineteenth century Christian cultural imperialism; this phantom "savage" belief was swiftly diagnosed and treated among the native peoples of Australia for example.

The English mis-borrowing 'totem' then developed a life of its own in the enthusiastic hands of the Victorian anthropologists J.F. McLennan, W. Roberts and Sir James Frazer, who also took it with them everywhere they found "primitives" to study (thus its pidgin apprearence everywhere from Africa to China). The current tangle of tribal naming, ancestor veneration and guardian spirits is a result of this self-perpetuating misunderstanding: The danger of any term is that it can distort perception. As R.C. Poole's introduction to Levi-Strauss' Totemism (Totemism, p.15, trans. R. Needham, Penguin, 1969) has it; "it was always assumed a priori that the problem exists, that there is only one such thing, multiform perhaps, and that therefore its solution lay in organizing all the available materials within one vast theoretical idea or concept, usually of an evolutionary nature." (see also p.86-7). The resulting theoretical mess is the lengthily advanced, hotly contested and constantly 'advancing' glacial claptrap common to much academic speculation, particularly in the ideologically involved fields of anthropology, psychology and sociology. Iffifish 20:23, 5 September 2006

Call for international legislation or international standardization of using....

...animal totems/symbols. Because from a religious point of viewes animal totems/symbols do have metaphysical effects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.27.5.28 (talk) 07:03, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Have a look at the following information

http://www.amazon.com/Animal-Speak-Spiritual-Magical-Creatures/dp/0875420281/ref=sr_11_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1219302403&sr=11-1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.27.5.28 (talk) 07:08, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

http://www.anthrosource.net/doi/abs/10.1525/ahu.1993.18.1.3 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.27.5.28 (talk) 07:12, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

http://ngc.dukejournals.org/cgi/reprint/33/1_97/159.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.27.5.28 (talk) 07:17, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

http://books.google.com.au/books?hl=en&lr=&id=ToqbYHce5OoC&oi=fnd&pg=PA1&dq=%22animal+totem%22+metaphysical&ots=Og69f2lVYh&sig=eTF4foPVasizBJdvP6MKqL5hwNs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.27.5.28 (talk) 07:20, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/imp/jcs/2000/00000007/F0020011/1061

http://www.lib.unb.ca/Texts/SCL/Vol23_1/adam.pdf

http://www.amazon.com/Cults-Myths-Religions-Salomon-Reinach/dp/0766132145/ref=sr_11_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1219304579&sr=11-1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.27.5.28 (talk) 07:44, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/cognition-animal/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.27.5.28 (talk) 07:49, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

DYLAN THOMAS'S ANIMAL SYMBOLOGY IN CELTIC TRADITION: THE INNER VOICE OF A POET by PMR GÓMEZ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.27.5.28 (talk) 07:57, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119108063/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.27.5.28 (talk) 07:59, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

totemic/heraldic

As if there's a significant difference. 71.248.115.187 (talk) 03:24, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

To elaborate: The opening sentence that defines a totem as necessarily tutelary is, I think, too narrow. Many a source defines a totem as a symbol of a particular group, whether familial, ethnic, or national -- an emblem. (My inner cynic says that heraldry is for white Europeans, while totemism is for those who are "only natives", but that's probably too simplistic.) 71.248.115.187 (talk) 03:30, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Romulus and Remus

As animal founders of a people, would these qualify as totems of the Romans?--Mongreilf (talk) 12:12, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

"animal founders of a people"? Equivamp(talk) 14:56, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Wolf founders of the Romans. "In kinship and descent, if the apical ancestor of a clan is nonhuman, it is called a totem." Romulus and Remus seem to qualify.--Mongreilf (talk) 09:47, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Except that Romans aren't a clan.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 12:31, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Disney reference

I deleted the sentence, "there is a Walt Disney film Brother Bear, expressing this concept very well done." from the Jung section because it did not fit. FWIW, there is a Wikipedia page on Brother Bear. --BB12 (talk) 06:29, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Ojibwe

@Askedonty: why are you reverting the prioritization of Indigenous definitions? This is about an Ojibwe concept and terminology, that was later adopted and adapted for related concepts. As we're dealing with oral cultures pre-contact, just finding an early publication by Euros doesn't mean settlers originated the word or concept. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 16:23, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Are you establishing yourself as the long arm of prioritizations? This is about editing Wikipedia. "Totem Pole" is a late invention of Canadians and there is no reason it starts an article if it's not itself even mentioned in the lead. --Askedonty (talk) 16:49, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

All I did was re-arrange the existing sections, and add some clarifications. Actually, a better article on the topic is Anishinaabe clan system, which many link to instead of this article. A summation of that article would be better as the first section here. I added a link to that in the lede, which you removed with your "undo". - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 17:12, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

I imported/adapted some text and sourcing from that article, and added a bit more "compare and contrast" type text to the lede to acknowledge the anthro and philosophical usages. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 17:36, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Indeed. The Anishinaabe clan system link was generating confusion with the totem poles subject just after. Sorry if I interfered. --Askedonty (talk) 17:45, 18 August 2021 (UTC)