Talk:Ordnungspolizei

Landespolizei

There is a mistake in the last part ("Legacy ...") of this article. The Landespolizei is by no means the federal police of Germany. The Landespolizeien are the police forces of each Bundesland and therefore more like a State Police in the US. Currently there is no "federal police" in Germany. The closest things are probably the Bundeskriminalamt (FBI like federal criminal investigation office), the Bundesgrenzschutz (the federal border protection service) or the Zoll (German customs service, that also investigates some federal tax issues). I'm a little unsure about the best way to re-write this section of the article. Maybe someone with more expertise on this subject could do it...

Schutzpolizei

The link from the article on the Landespolizei to the Schutzpolizei links to the Ordnungspolizei. Since this last body was an organ of the Nazi state and clearly the current Schupos have no connection to this there is a need to ceate a current article on the Schupos. Ozdaren 14:04, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Grüne Polizei (Green Police)

[[1]]

Do you've some sources? The police still ist green in Germany (It is changing to blue because of internationalisation) --Athalis 16:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I think also the article as worded is misleading, since green was the traditional color for police in Germany long before the Third Reich. Solicitr (talk) 21:24, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

The same old myhs yet again

In 1936 Himmler was appointed "Chief of the German Police in the Ministry of the Interior" not simply "Chief of the German Police". This a crucial distinction, for the powers vested in Himmler's new office were exactly those previously exercised in police matters by the Ministry of the Interior under Wilhelm Frick. Himmler was wont to ommit the "in the Ministry of the Interior" in corespondence, but his powers remained the same, weather he liked it or not. There was never any intention to centralise operational control over the police, and Himmler was never authorised to issue orders to the uniformed police. The SS gained authority over the training academies and the power to determine service regulations. Command authority and power of appointment over the non-Gestapo police remained firmly and unchallengably in the hands of the so called "Bearers of Sovreignty", namely gauleiters kreisleiters and later sub-kreiseleiters. In the occupied territories it was exercised by kommisars or governors. Only in the absence of a civilian administration or in emergencies was the SS given control over police forces when a civilian administration was in place, with the sole exeption of von dem Bach Zelewski's anti-partisan command. When Germany occupied new territories the military often relinquished control to a putative civilian administration before that administration had materialised except on paper. The most extreme example being the formal ransfer of most of the occupied Soviet territories to a civilian administration in July, though this administration only came into being in October and in some areas November. The result was a power vaccume which the SS would fill with its HSSPFs and SSPFs chain of command. However once a fully rammified civilian administration was in place this chain of command was displaced by it. The SS did not always give up authority without a fight but ultimately it could not win. If we are to understand the regretable phenomenon of Nazism, then the myth of the small but mighty SS weilding great powers of coercion over other bodies, notably the police, must be done a way with. The SS makes a nice alibi for German mass criminality during the Nazi era but ultimately it is a false alibi.

Myths piled on myths - no mention of Christopher Browning or Unit 101, etc. This whole story of great masses of psycho Germans mass murdering people and leaving no evidence behind is getting tiresome. I have worked in a mental institution and psychos always leave evidence. Their ability to differentiate reality from dream is gone - out of this many police you would have a few psychos - even if they weren't all psychos - and they would have body parts, etc in their refrigerators, etc. 159.105.80.141 19:59, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I am confused by the last para as it does not seem to link to the earlier one. Where are there refs to psycho masses and no evidence? Surely the whole point of Browning is that people who are clearly not psychos are capbale of perpetrating horrendous crimes against unarmed civilians. I hope that the writer of the last para with the harping on about evidence is not implying that the police batalions were not involved in mass murder and that whole swathes of the Jewish population just disappeared. As to evidence I think linking it to body parts in a freezer is rather facile - there is plenty od documentary evidence of the role of police units and given that there was a war going on and the areas involved were re-taken then what kind of evidence is meant? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.42.236.47 (talk) 20:05, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

I added a link to Further Reading and Browning's book. Mcrawley (talk) 05:48, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I have a problem, for the reasons stated above, with the infobox line "The Orpo was under the administration of the SS." That's really, really misleading; as the anon commenter points out, the Orpo may in practice have been subject to SS-and-Police-Leaders' operational control, and was run by Himmler and Daluege who were also SS leaders as well as police officials.... but nonetheless, administratively the Orpo was never within the SS-Hauptamt structure; it remained an agency of the (State) Innernsministerium, not the (Party) SS. It was not even in the never-never-land of the hybrid RSHA like the SiPo. Solicitr (talk) 21:11, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I would agree, overall. The Orpo was under operational control or defacto control of the SS; this given the fact its leaders (of the Police overall and the Uniformed Police, specifically) were members of the SS. One could write: "The Orpo was under operational control of the SS". Kierzek (talk) 19:38, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

OK, I've altered it to read "The Orpo was under the administration of the Interior Ministry but headed by members of the SS" I think that's a reasonably accurate statement. I've also tried to correct "became a headquarters branch of the SS," which was simply untrue.Solicitr (talk) 17:52, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Caption date

The caption on the picture of German policemen passing the broken windows of a Jewish shop in Berlin gives the date as 1933 but calls them "Orpo", which according to this article wasn't founded until 1936. I think something needs correction or elaboration, but I'm not sure what. —— Shakescene (talk) 09:38, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Now we have no fewer than three pictures with captions referring to years well before 1936, two of them explicitly purporting to describe Ordnungspolizei. Since it's been a month since my yet-to-be-answered first entry above, I may soon hide these pictures within <!-- ''[undisplayed matter]'' --> brackets until the anachronism is resolved. —— Shakescene (talk) 04:18, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

They might, at a push, by members of a police force that happened to have the name 'Ordnungspolizei' - Germany still maintains small forces called Ordnungsamt so it's not all together impossible. You might like to ask at a military WikiProject, I'm sure the uniforms will be a giveaway to them. ninety:one 23:14, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Photo caption: rank

Daluege's pic gives him the rank of Oberstgruppenfuhrer, but of course that rank didn't exist in 1936, nor is he wearing its insignia in the photo. Propose "Obergruppenfuhrer (later Oberstgruppenfuhrer) Karl Daluege etc." Solicitr (talk) 00:10, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Good point. Or it can be written: "Shown here in 1936 as an Obergruppenfuhrer." Kierzek (talk) 00:57, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Done. But I wonder if we should swap this photo with the one on Daluege's bio page, which shows him in Orpo general's uniform. Solicitr (talk) 22:01, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the switch as he was first an SS officer, head of the Berlin SS and leader of "SS Group East" before later being appointed head of the Orpo. Kierzek (talk) 00:46, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Done. And now I have some puzzlement about that "Orpo" uniform. He's wearing general's Arabeske, presumably on green, naturally; but the French cuffs suggest that's not a police uniform at all, but a Reichswehr-era officer's uniform. Note also the absence of a sleeve Polizeiadler. And to further confuse matters, those look like SS shoulderboards- but what is the pinned device? It looks for all the world like the same oakleaf insignia Himmler wore. Solicitr (talk) 02:14, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree, looks like some "non-regulation" or custom insignia to his uniform. Both to note he was of General rank and to note the SS. Kierzek (talk) 19:42, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

D'oh! It's right there in the photo-file caption: (September 1933 zum General der preußischen Landespolizei ernannt). Uniform of a general in the pre-Orpo Prussian Landespolizei.Solicitr (talk) 06:08, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Interesting. It ought to be noted in the Wiki page photo caption. Kierzek (talk) 14:29, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Agency Overview

The following discussion is an archived talk page discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in an appropriate section of this discussion page (see Help:Using talk pages). No further edits should be made to this section.

Address of Ordungspolizei/Berlin- The Prinz Alrecht Straße was the address of the Sicherheitpspolizei. The Ordnungpolizei had the adress of the Ministry of Interior: Berlin NW 7, Unter den Linden 72/74. (ex EHRI project/Ordnungspolizei ehri-project). There are other incorrect statements and contradictions in this article, maybe I can find the time (and patience) to adress them. (Someone tried already in vain, see "The same old myths yet again" of 2007.) --Aschland (talk) 10:00, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Aside from the rambling portions of the ip's post above, the point as to Himmler being the "Chief of the German Police in the Ministry of the Interior" is stated in the article; although he was only nominally under Frick; Himmler only answered to Hitler. Also, I tweaked the article to make clear, the Orpo was under the administration of the Interior Ministry but headed by members of the SS until the end of World War II. Kierzek (talk) 15:50, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

And the address? There are other proofs like telephone-directories, publications.. instead of complaining about the "ramblings postings" you could at least cite the correct address.(Sorry, I am not used to daily argue in a medium like this... and my knowledge of the language is obviously poor(er) that yours.) Orpo: All decrees, enactments of the Ordnungspolizei came from offices of the Ministry of Interior or the Minster, there are many decrees to be found in archives, and most of the enactments are online available. After 1945 the Germans put all the blame on the SS, and when the facts about the involvment of the Ordnungspolizei (and Wehrmacht - but this is still a tabu) in killing jews, partisans/civilians, destroying villages etc.. were known, it was easy to explain this fact by pointing out to Himmler an the SS. Myths! Most of them were "ordinary men" (Browning 1992) led by ideologically trained police officials ("ideological soldiers"/Goldhagen), some of them with SS membership, many of them with NSDAP membership - see Edward B.Westermann, Hitler`s Police Battailons. Enforcing Racial War in the East, Kansas, 2005.

--Aschland (talk) 10:01, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Instead of writing all of the above, why don't you change the address if you have an WP:RS cited source to back it up. The address was a main concern of yours, not mine. I did check RS sources, but all they say is "[t]he Orpo main office was in Berlin". And then go on to list the branches/sub-departments. As for the rest, no one is letting the Orpo members off the hook; the point was, under whom was control placed for the organization. Kierzek (talk) 11:40, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

The specific place where Daleuge maintained his office has been an interesting question for historians. About a third of the sources say he was at Prinz Albrect Strasse with a good deal more saying the Ministry of the Interior. Letterheads from the time point to the Interior Minister but then there are all kinds of photos of Daluege hanging out at Prinz Albrect Strasse. My feeling is he was officially over at the Interior Ministry but spent most of his time down the hall from Himmler at P.A. Strasse. -O.R.^Comms 17:22, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

The address is not my “concern”, addresses are facts. You said you did check but could find nothing more that “Berlin”. So you assumed that the Orpo had the same address of the Gestapo (Prinz Albrecht Straße 8) near the SS-SD (Prinz Albrecht Palais) and the SS headquarter (Prinz Albrecht Hotel). The same old myth, you see? I already referred to a reliable source – see ehri/achives project, you can find the address also in a document of 1942 (Reichsministerium des Innern/page 75): NSDAP und Verbände, Reichsregierung. The branches/sub-departments of the Orpo seem to be your “concern”, they underwent changes– see the history of the Orpo in: NEUFELDT, HUCK, TESSIN, Zur Geschichte der Ordnungspolizei 1936 – 1945, Schriftenreihe des Bundesarchivs 3, Koblenz 1957(p. 22, 33,37 ), my knowledge of English is not sufficient to translate the terms. Orpo-members - uniformed policemen of Schutzpolizei, Gendarmerie, Firepolice, Waterpolice etc. - should not be let off the hook? This was not my point... Why not address the legally responsible, like Minister Frick (sentenced to death at the Nurenberg-Prozess as well as his successor as Minister of Interior in 1943/Himmler), or Wilhelm Stuckert in the MdI who got a mild verdict because of “incurable illness” - see Wilhelmstraßen-Prozess 1948/49 (Ministries Trials). Since 1933 Reichskanzler Hitler and his ministers had the right to enact laws, the majority of the parlament approved, socialists votes against; communists could no longer not vote. Even the SD/Sipo could claim to act according to decrees of Ministries and laws of the Reich. The imprisonment by Gestapo-officials (“Schutzhaft” – cynical description of arbitrary arrests and torture) was sanctioned by “law”. (Ba the way, maybe this was the reason you assumed that the Orpo/Schutzpolizei was situated in Prinz Albrecht-Straße?) --Aschland (talk) 16:28, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

I did not "assume" the address currently stated was correct, Aschland; I was pointing out that there was not a clear RS source I found stating something different; as OberRanks points out, there is no clear consensus; and then there is the argument of official and unofficial. This is my last post on this subject. Kierzek (talk) 17:59, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

So, facts are not relevant? And if there are reliable proofs, well, according to you and your OberRanks it could still be the case that the Sipo-headquater was the unofficial address of der Orpo-headquarter. This is ridiculous. The official address at the Ministry of Interior (Berlin NW 7, Unter den Linden) in letters, documents, address registers was a fake? To what end? The only explanation for all this futile discussion – and for quite a lot of other mistakes in the article - seems to be the Orpo/Sipo-confusion. Both were called German police, both were involved in crimes against humanity. At first sight the difference between Orpo and Sipo seems to be obvious because the members and leaders of all the different branches of Orpo had to wear uniforms of the Reich/State (see Delague-foto) while Sipo-officials had no uniforms or were clad in black SD-uniforms after they joined the SS or when "on duty" abroad. More important in this context: In 1936 Heydrich, employed in the SS administration as chief of the security agency of SD, was also appointed chief of the Sipo and led both offices parallel. From then on Gestapo and criminal police cooperated with/were dominated by the SS (SD) and in 1939 were amalgamated with the SD to the RSHA. Already from the beginning (1933/34) the Gestapo and then the Sipo (1936) were destined and formed as “political” police with the commission of implementing the NS-rule. Heydrich boasted about it, Delagues Opro were only for routine and administration (which was not true). But only the Gestapo could make arrests without legal grounds; and by decrees of 1938, 1939, 1940, 1942 the criminal police had the authority of identifying and arresting Roma & Sinti and vagrants, prostitutes, homosexuals etc. - see Hans Buchheim, SS und Polizei im NS-Staat, Bonn, 1964, Friedrich Wilhelm, Polizei im NS-Staat, Paderborn 1997 e.a.. The center of planning and designing the NS-regime was in Prinz Albrecht Straße, Sipo/SD,RSHA. The Einsatzgruppen of Sipo/SD in the east got - if needed - "assistance" by units stationed in the region - most of all Orpo and cooperating native [[2]] under Orpo-control but also Wehrmacht or Hungarian and Italian etc. fascist soldiers/units - see Christian Hartmann, Johannes Hürter, Ulrike Jureit: Verbrechen der Wehrmacht. Bilanz einer Debatte, München 2005. --Aschland (talk) 13:56, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

I have no idea what you are ranting about. I have no "Orpo/Sipo-confusion". If you have something to add to the article which can be RS cited, go ahead. Kierzek (talk) 16:55, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with Kierzek. This was apparently a closed issue, what exactly is the problem? The article clearly states the headquarters of the Orpo was at the Interior Ministry, which is correct. The comments about Prinz Albrecht Strasse were just to stress that Daluege spent a lot of time there (which he did), but he did not have an HQ there although there was an Orpo liaison office down the hall from Himmler. Interesting relationship between those two men, Himmler and Daluege. They appear to have gone back and forth between the worst of enemies to the best of friends. -O.R.^Comms 18:30, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

If it takes such a long time to convince you to correct an obviously incorrect adress (see above), and even then - instead of "Thank you for this input" - to doubt if it was a really a false adress, and all the time never answering to arguments (NLP-trained?)...If you have no idea "what I was ranting about" - well, this is your problem. Why should someone take the trouble to fight? You are the gatekeeper. End of ranting about. --Aschland (talk) 16:10, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

No yet: Yes, there is an overlapping of Ordungspolizei/Orpo and Sicherheitspolizei/Sipo in the text. Interesting: In an article on Ordungspolizei you refer to an illustrated biography of Heydrich (Chef od SS-SD-Hauptamt, after 1936 also Chef of Sipo). Hence the long discussion about the address, the assumption that the main office became “populated by officers of the SS” - which was partly the case in the Hauptamt Sicherheitspolizei because of the cooperation with SS-SD. Delague entered the Prussian Ministry of Interior in 1933, was General der Polizei when appointed Chef of Ordnungspolizei 1936 (adressed as such in the decree of the Ministry). He joined the SS, but was not an SS-Official as was Heydrich. When Himmler became Minister of Interior (1943) some SS-officials were installed in the Hauptamt Ordnungpolizei (Hans Joachim Neufeldt, Entstehung und Orgnisation des Hauptamtes Ordnungspolizei (Zur Geschichte der Ordnungspolizei 1936 – 1945, Schriftenreihe des Bundesarchivs 3, Koblenz 1957), etc...

You should read more on the subject and preferably better books than the ones you relied on: Gordon Williamson (World War II German Police Units) is a popular “history writer” with a tendency to “uncritical portrayal of the German war effort” (Wikipedia). In the online available text about the “Ordnungpolizei” or “police” there are no references, he is not a reliable source. And who is Max Williamson (Reinhard Heydrich: The Biography, 1 —Road To War)? He seems to be more interested in pictures of Heydrich than in facts. The publishing houses (Osprey Publishing/Williamson; Ulric Publishing/Williams)are known for their foibles for militia and illustrated book, but not for scientific quality. --Aschland (talk) 14:19, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

I have no idea what you are going on about. And as for Gordon Williamson, I have never used him for citing; I cannot speak for others, as other editors have made edits/additions to this page over time. If you have a point to make or propose, please do so; talk pages are not for general discussions. Kierzek (talk) 15:11, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

These lengthy talk page posts are skirting the edge of WP:TALK violations. I dont really see whats going on with them either. -O.R.^Comms 16:25, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new talk page section. No further edits should be made to this section.

Superseding agencies?

The infobox lists as superseding agencies:

• Landespolizei (W.Germany)
  Volkspolizei (E.Germany)

This seems off -- I doubt that either of these agencies claims lineage to the Ordnungspolizei. Feedback? K.e.coffman (talk) 06:38, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Landespolizei sheepishly does to this day admit they are descended from Orpo. Their uniform regulations of the 1960s, and many of the awards and badges, were taken from Orpo directives of the 1930s. As for East Germany, I think their police pretty much copied the structure of the Orpo onto themselves, not even bothering to change some of the names of the internal offices. -O.R.^Comms 13:13, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Recent edit

I streamlined the infobox, with the following changes:

• Removed one of the flag images; I believe that one is sufficient. I also revised the caption.
• Streamlined ranks and details of the personnel included.
• Replaced the image with a more relevant photo of the two executives most associated with the force.
• Removed superseding agencies, per discussion above. There a section in the article Ordnungspolizei#Orpo_legacy, but it's uncited and no direct descendency is noted. Best leave it out of the infobox, IMO.

Please let me know if there are any concerns. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:32, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

• Thanks for the improvements, K.e.coffman, but I do have a problem with the change of the lead photograph. The original photograph was quite OK in my opinion. – Instead, we have now two talking heads. But the article is about a major Nazi German formation, not about some coffee-table book discussion. Wouldn't you agree? Poeticbent talk 00:55, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Image

The image in the previous version of the article was not that great either; it depicts a fairly non-descript group of ppl in uniform just standing about. The caption was "Kurt Daluege, chief of Ordnungspolizei (2nd from l.) with Adolf von Bomhard, Orpo Generalleutnant (3rd from l.) at the police academy at Rathenow, Havelland, in the autumn of 1940", which is not very informative.

I picked Daluege and Himmler as they represent the fusing of the SS and police forces. The two men were the driving force behind the transformation of the "beat cop" force into the instrument in the war of conquest and annihilation. Perhaps adding a sourced caption to this effect would alleviate some of the concerns?

I think the options here are rather limited as all we have are propaganda photographs. I'd be open to discussing any other images as potential choices. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:48, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

• Well, than perhaps looking at the Schutzstaffel (SS) article Infobox (per above) would give us some insight. These were major formations, I can't stress this enough. Order Police had grown to 244,500 men by mid-1940. Let's find the way of signifying that fact. Poeticbent talk 18:21, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

• 
  Original (possibly biased) captions: Eine Polizeibtl. marschiert in Forbach ein
• 
  Gen. Daluege; Ol. Herf; Gen. v.Bomhard; Gen.mj. Klinger
• 
  Besichtigung in Straßburg von Polizei-Einheiten, 1940: (Mitte) Daluege, Gen.Mj. v. Bomhard, Oberst d. Pol. Winkler
• 
  Dienstreise Generalleutnant Kurt Daluege unmittelbar nach Beginn des Frankreich- Feldzuges
• 
  Polen, Krakau. Razzia von deutscher Ordnungspolizei, Kontrolle (Verhaftung?) von Juden

How about this one, of the Opro parade? It really speaks to scale:

• 
  1943, Minsk

– that’s a lot of people.

K.e.coffman (talk) 05:03, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

BTW, I would be open to a collection of images in the infobox, similar to the SS article. K.e.coffman (talk) 17:45, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

You gentlemen seem to have a good handle on this, so I leave it up to you guys; I do believe a collection of images, is a good idea. Cheers, Kierzek (talk) 20:05, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Image choices

• Can you please propose images you consider significant for the new collage, similar to what I did (above), and maybe vote on the images already suggested. We need six (horizontal) photographs. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 05:05, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
• I would suggest these for the new collage:
• 1) The current image in the info box of Daluege and Heinrich
• 2) See photo - Biała Podlaska 1942

  

  Holocaust ghetto liquidation action in occupied Poland conducted in Biała Podlaska in 1942 by the Reserve Police Battalion 101

• 3) Number 3 above - Daluege, Gen.Mj. v. Bomhard, Oberst d. Pol. Winkler
• 4) Number 5 above (l to r) - Polen, Krakau. Razzia von deutscher Ordnungspolizei, Kontrolle (Verhaftung?) von Juden
• 5) Last one added by K.e.coffman above, 1943, Minsk.

Kierzek (talk) 14:46, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

• I really like the 1943 image for the infobox, as it speaks to scale for me. Since it's a vertical image, could it work in place of two horizontal ones? In addition, the following four would work for me (same as Kierzek's).
• 1) The current image in the infobox of Daluege and Heinrich
• 2) Biala Podlaska - likwidacja getta - 1942.jpg
• 3) Daluege, Gen.Mj. v. Bomhard, Oberst d. Pol. Winkler
• 4) Polen, Krakau. Razzia von deutscher Ordnungspolizei, Kontrolle (Verhaftung?) von Juden

K.e.coffman (talk) 02:06, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

• Template:Photomontage does not accept vertical files. I tried numerous options yesterday night and got nowhere. Below is the Schutzstaffel photomontage ... next to my latest attempt at using the same template as is. The image # 5 won't fit in the same second row. The only choice I see is to produce a collage in Photoshop and upload it to Commons as one file. Poeticbent talk 23:22, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

These two files can be arranged vertically in the second row of our collage only by Photoshop:

Poeticbent: Just do the best you can with the choices in getting them to piece together. Anyway to include the Polen, Krakau. Razzia von deutscher Ordnungspolizei, Kontrolle (Verhaftung?) von Juden, photo? I hate to leave that one out. We may have to move/put the vertical 1943, Minsk photo in a prominent place in the body of the article. What do you guys think? Kierzek (talk) 17:38, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

I would be fine with 4 images (2X2) and putting the 1943 parade into the article, if the vertial image presents technical challenges. I think 4 in the infobox would be a good choice, as, beyond those we identified, the photos start getting repetitive. K.e.coffman (talk) 20:37, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

*Actually, I do like the vertical image of the 1943 parade in Minsk in the new infobox, opposite two smaller photographs, and I'm willing to do the job. The new collage would look similar to this (sans the errors of course). Please confirm the arrangement of choices ... I wouldn't want to have to redo it soon afterwards. If there are any other photographs worth featuring, please put them right into this template by replacing the already proposed files. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 21:18, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

[[File: |149px]]

• I would swap the 1943 parade image & place it on the right, rather than on the left -- the people on the right would provide nice framing, vs empty field that's on the left. The two stacked images would be on the left of the collage. Does this make sense? K.e.coffman (talk) 21:27, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Something like this maybe ? Poeticbent talk 21:52, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Looks okay to me, in this rough layout. Kierzek (talk) 21:58, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

May 2018 edit

Preserving here by providing this link. My rationale was: "c/e; wl; mv image for better placement; rm Bahnschutzpolizei as it's described as not being subordinated "to Hauptamt Ordnungspolizei, only the Deutsche Reichsbahn" & "unsourced OR / dubious" (about the Legacy section). --K.e.coffman (talk) 22:09, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Beobachtungsstellen

Beobachtungsstellen or Orpo intercept stations were known to exist. These were short-range intercept stations that sometimes included a component for Direction Finding (DF). They had these units in Spandau, Cologne, Constanta, Vienna, Nuremberg, Oldenburg. They never increased in capability, or territory. They had long-range Direction Finding stations in Brest and Tilsit, after occupation. When they invaded Norway, stations were established in Oslo, Drontheim, with mobile units known as Operations Sections, each with 7 or 8 vans short range DF, that were based in Tromso, Drontheim, Oslo, Bergen and Kristiansand. The other occupied countries were covered as well. The document is at: HW-34-2]. They often operated in conjunction with the Funkabwehr, the counter intelligence agency. scope_creep (talk) 11:02, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

They're performance was very poor, but they did exist in several countries, and they generated considerable friction between the OKW and Funkabwehr. scope_creep (talk) 11:19, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 11 October 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. No consensus to move. (non-admin closure) –Ammarpad (talk) 08:39, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

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Ordnungspolizei → Order Police – Per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:ENGLISH. See Google ngram: [3]; between 1940 and 1980, Ordnungspolizei and Order Police track closely together, but starting in 1980s, Order Police becomes more prevalent. I think this is sufficient to privilege the English term. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:15, 11 October 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Favonian (talk) 08:18, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose No sufficient evidence has been presented to demonstrate that "Order Police", an Anglicisation, is the commonly-used name to refer to this Nazi agency. WP:UE does not mandate we use anglicisations, it mandates we follow majority-usage in English-language sources. Britannica uses Ordnungspolizei. Searches for "order police" return a lot of results about various personal and domestic violence prevention orders available from Police. AusLondonder (talk) 08:37, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support That is their correct name, and even the British Army referred to them as the Order Police after the war. scope_creep (talk) 12:49, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose contrary to nom, a look in modern GBooks suggest the German name is used. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:50, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose The Schutzstaffel, Sturmabteilung, and Gestapo are known by their German names. While there is precedent for Nazi organizations to have translated English names, and I concede to the trend in English-language writing to "Order Police," I contend that as an SS functionary, the Ordnungspolizei should retain a German name. —Vami♜_IV♠ 05:07, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. I have given this quite a bit of thought over the last week or so, and it is true that some article titles have been changed to English translations, but in general they are ones that are lesser known and the German titles/spellings are not used to the same extent anymore. In this case, there are still plenty of English language reliable sources that use the German name for this main branch of the Nazi era and as stated, WP:UE does not mandate we use anglicisations. Kierzek (talk) 13:20, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. The common name is Ordnungspolizei. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:05, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

No info on participation in the July 20 plot

Elements of Orpo were involved in the July 20 plot to kill Hitler with Berlin's Chief of Police Wolf-Heinrich Graf von Helldorff being executed for his participation - yet there's nothing about this in the article: this should be remedied. --82.181.143.171 (talk) 05:19, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 November 2023

Adding the Bergpolizei as cited in Gordan Williamson's book. Kecesi (talk) 19:42, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. WanderingMorpheme 01:59, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

My apologies, I meant add the Bergpolizei to the Sonderpolizei section as it's mentioned in Gordan Williamson's book on Third Reich German Policing Units. Kecesi (talk) 04:05, 13 November 2023 (UTC)