Talk:Georg Forster

Enzensberger quote for date of birth

I took this from the Thomas/Berghof edition of A voyage round the world. Although I fully trust these authors: can somebody check the quote in Enzensberger's book? My university library doesn't have it. Kusma (討論) 22:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Red links in the article

The following red links should be turned blue:

• John Francis Rigaud, should be easy to write a stub using information e.g. at National Maritime Museum page
• Mokry Dwór from pl:Mokry Dwór (województwo pomorskie); is that a part of Pruszcz Gdański? Kusma (討論) 21:57, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Any volunteers? Kusma (討論) 21:57, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Another article to add and to link to from this one here might be de:Georg-Forster-Station. Kusma (討論) 19:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

And de:Freiheitsbaum. Kusma (討論) 20:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Arbre de la liberté currently redirects to Liberty pole, perhaps the article about the French concept could be expanded and stand on its own. Kusma (討論) 09:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

• Collegium Carolinum (Kassel) exists at de:Collegium Carolinum (Kassel). —Кузьма^討論 11:54, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Ben; Facinating

i was rading the article on georg(E!?!?!) Forster and i was entrigued, and found myself facinated in what was written about this magnificent man - i especially likes this bitof the text

he was on a assignment to travel in Russia on a research journey and investigate the situation of a German colony.

facinating

also this bit

Georg Forster joined his father in the expedition again and was appointed as a draughtsman to his father

facinating

also this bit

He described various social structures and religions that he encountered on the Society Islands,

facenating

also this bit

The journey was rich in scientific results. However, the relations between the Forsters and Captain Cook and his officers were often problematic

facenating

this is truly a remarcable man - i love you geog(E?!?!?) forster

The religion of his father

Whay did someone change back to the statement that his father was a Lutheran pastor. He was not, he was a Calvinist pastor of Scottish roots in the Reformed Church in Mokry Dwor. There was no Lutheran church there but only a Reformed one.

Kazimierz

I changed it back, as you provided no reference for the change and according to de:Johann Reinhold Forster, Forster's father was pastor in Wislina (Hochzeit), not Mokry Dwor. I will check in a Forster biography later tonight. Were there Calvinist professors in Halle, where JR Forster studied? Kusma (討論) 15:52, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

At least the Pitt Rivers Museum lists him as Lutheran, while I could google nothing for "Calvinist". Kusma (討論) 15:57, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you try Paul Arndt, Geschichte... (History of the Reformed Church in Gdansk) as well as Aleksander Klemp, Portestanci w Dobrach prywatnych na pomorzu -that one is Polish. His father is listed as a pastor in Mokry Dwor which was one of four Calvinist churches in the north of Poland (2 in Gdansk, one in Mokry Dwor and one in Krokowa), the rest were Lutheran, perhaps hence the confusion. The fact that they went to Halle, which was a Calvinist bastion, underlines that point too. I wish I had the book with me, so I could provide you with a page number. Kazimierz

I thought that Halle was pietist, more reformed than Calvinist, but I am no expert on Protestantism, especially not on the terms used in English. I will investigate further and see if I find any book that lists JR Forster as something else than a Lutheran. Kusma (討論) 19:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I have changed "Lutheran" to "Protestant" for now, which is certainly true and close enough for the purposes of this article. For the article Johann Reinhold Forster, we should certainly mention his confession in detail. Kusma (討論) 20:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm learning lots of interesting things. I'm starting to believe that you are right about "reformed", and my statement above about Wislina is also not quite true: The ADB article on Georg Forster mentions that JR was pastor in Nassenhuben, but that his house stood just across the county border in Hochzeit (pl Wislina). All of these are probably parts of Pruszcz Gdański today, but I can't read Polish, so I'm not sure. Kusma (討論) 20:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Calvinism is the mainstream of Reformed Protestantism. In fact they tend to by synonimous. Kazimierz

And ADB says the reformed church helped him out of his debts, so I have changed it to "reformed" both here and in Johann Reinhold Forster. Kusma (討論) 12:13, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Great! BTW This article was very good - I learned a lot from it! I Changed the reformed to "Reformed" - the denominations should be spelled with a capital! Kazimierz

Main page result

This diff spans more than 350 edits: mostly noise, unfortunately. Kusma (討論) 06:50, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Featured content

Is he should be on "Biology, medicine and psychology" isn't it better to put him on "History", or something like that? 85.250.205.175 18:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Check/delete mistake in article section

Check section: A founder of modern travel literature Last sentence there seems like mistake or joke... "He also wrote a novel on his aventures in outer space. He orbitted earth for a then record of four days in his little cart-sized spaceship."

I'm new to commenting/editing on Wikipedia, so I hope this was the right way and right place to do so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.11.85.219 (talk) 00:25, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out the vandalism, I have reverted it. Next time, you may want to just edit the article yourself :) Be bold! —Кузьма^討論 07:38, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Georg or George?

I've come across several references to this Forster in English-language literature referring to him as George Forster (i.e. using the English spelling George rather than the German spelling of Georg). I found the following reference that may explain this: First Taxonomic Assessment of George Forster's Botanical Artwork at Gotha (Thuringia, Germany), Dan H. Nicolson, Taxon Vol. 47, No. 3 (Aug., 1998), pp. 581-592).

That source (from 1998) quotes another source (Hoare) from 1976, who said: "Johann Reinhold [...] chose the English form George for his eldest son". Nicolson also says earlier on that introductory page: "The son was named for a Yorkshire royalist ancestor, George Forster, who was dispossessed by the Cromwellian forces and fled to Prussia around 1642 [...]. Throughout his life J. G. A. Forster was known in the family as George, the form appearing in the parish records...". Also mentioned is the fact that Johann Forster 'resented' any attempt at the umlaut being added to the 'o' in his his surname.

So what I'm wondering is what this 'George' vs 'Georg' business means for this article? At a minimum, I think something on this needs adding to the article. Does the title and name used in the article need changing as well, or not? What do the published biographies have to say about this matter? Carcharoth (talk) 00:50, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

As far as I can recall, Saine's biography (the main English source used for the article) does not mention this, and uses Georg throughout. I own Harpprecht's and Enzensberger's books (in German) and will check whether they say anything about it. Many modern English-language sources seem to use the German spelling, though, so I never saw much point in starting a naming debate. —Kusma (t·c) 06:24, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, there are several issues. (1) Which name he and his family used; (2) Which name he was published under where anything more than just initials and surname was used; (3) Which name is used by secondary sources, presuming that they are aware of this issue and not just adopting one form or another for no reason and presuming that it is an issue of German or English spelling, rather than one of German or English naming. I think something about this does need to be added to the article (and also on whether he and his father were fluent in English) and possibly a naming discussion is needed, though I will hold off on that until things are clearer. The existence of George Forster (traveller), who will also appear in searches, doesn't help of course. What do you think could be usefully added to the article? Carcharoth (talk) 13:08, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Name used in sources

Listing here some sources and the name used. Lots more can be added.

George

• Pitt Rivers Museum
• Natural History Museum
• A Voyage Round The World

Georg

• Australian Dictionary of Biography
• Oxford Dictionary of National Biography
• Georg Forster (1972, Thomas P. Saine)

Discussion

The Australian Dictionary of Biography gives Johann George Adam Forster under 'Alternative Names', while the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography state that "He was invariably referred to in contemporary English sources as George Forster, a style which has occasionally led to his being confused with the contemporary traveller–writer of the same name, an East India Company servant." The front cover of the 2000 reprint of 'A Voyage Round The World' gives 'George' on the front cover, but it seems many libraries use Georg as the bibliographic name.

There is more at the bottom of this page (from an edited reprint of the father's book 'Observations made during a voyage round the world'): "Properly Johann George Adam Forster. His work in German generally appeared under the name Georg Forster, and this is how he has been referred to by German and most other scholars. He was christened George, but this is less important than the fact that he was speaking and writing almost exclusively in English in the period relevant here, and this makes it seems more appropriate..." Unfortunately the preview ends there, but the gist of the argument is apparent.

As he was fluent in both German and English, and published in both languages under both names, it would seem appropriate for the English-language Wikipedia article to be at 'George' and to refer to him as 'George' and for the German-language Wikipedia article to be at 'Georg' and refer to him as 'Georg' (except, obviously, when reporting titles and names used elsewhere such as in books and so on), or would that not work? Carcharoth (talk) 14:15, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

• Agree I'm in favor of renaming to George. capmo (talk) 21:39, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I really need to fix this properly. Baptised as "George" (using English forms of names was fairly common near Danzig in their time), wrote in English as "George". However, modern literature (also in English) typically uses "Georg". I think something like the footnote here needs to be added. But moving the article would cause a lot of pain for too little gain. —Kusma (talk) 16:15, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Forster drawings

There is a collection of Forster drawings at the Natural History Museum in London, UK. At the moment, the main article mentions ethnographical collection in Gottingen (the Cook-Forster-Sammlung or Cook-Forster Collection), and the collection at the Pitt Rivers Museum in Oxford, but some of the other collections are only mentioned in the external links. The collection at the UK Natural History Museum is indirectly mentioned in the external links as Drawing of a Chinstrap Penguin, but I'm wondering if the material further down that page should be incorporated somewhere in the article? The most obvious bit is: "By the end of Cook's second voyage, George Forster had completed 271 zoological paintings, and 420 botanical paintings." But there is other information from that page that could be added as well (such as the current location of these drawings and early biographical information such as "In 1770, father and son moved to London"). As this is a featured article, I'm posting a note here first before making any changes or additions. Carcharoth (talk) 22:56, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Kirghiz steppe ??

The Kirghiz steppe lies in Central Asia, far away from the lower Volga (a strange error already found in the German Wikipedia). Now replaced by "the Kalmyk steppe", with cross ref to today's Kalmykia, which lies a bit to the south - but in the 18th century the Kalmyk horde still roamed quite close to Saratov guberniya, as can be seen on old maps (for instance, on (in Russian)). Actually, the reference to the steppe here seems superfluous - surely the two Forsters spent their time in the Volga river settlements rather than in the steppe to the East. 83.76.130.1 (talk) 14:23, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

FAR needed

This Featured article, promoted in 2006, has not been maintained to FA standards, and has a good deal of uncited text as well as MOS issues. Is anyone able to tune it up to avoid a Featured article review? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:27, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

The baptism of a large container ship is here no advertising, but an appreciation.

@Symposiarch - Please make yourself familiar with maritime traditions before you delete posts here. - When a ship is baptized in the name of a city, a country or a personality not it is simle advertising, even though it may look at the cruise ships for the layman so today. (Ie earns more money) Or are you of the opinion that the largest French shipping ~ is in this segment worldwide in third place ~ a single container carries more when on the bow and stern of the vessel name Georg Forster is ? - G. F. was an outstanding naturalist and world traveler who has traveled with the famous James Cook for years the world's oceans. Fits not it be excellent and it is evident that a well-known shipping company their newest, largest and most modern ship baptizing them in the name of Georg Forster and hence the name "the world bears"? Just to be documented in the GF-Wikipedia contribution and nothing else! - Just as an example, at the Wikipedia entries on the cities Solingen, Dresden, Marburg and Coburg was correctly identified and proceed accordingly. - Why did the post Georg Forster not above also equal to the special postage stamp with away? The stands rather for the word Advertising ~ in the case for the post which has thus probably sold more brands of collectors. -. Buonasera (talk) 16:33, 13 Jul 2015 (CEST)

What about advertising on this assessment, I also do not understand .-- Mr. Froude (talk) 17:18, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Even me is completely incomprehensible, what should be advertising on this assessment, because Buonasera has nevertheless expressed very clear what is meant by a (maritime) Findings .-- Semi Versus (Talk) 12:50, 14 July 2015 ( CEST)

This clear appreciation has really nothing to do with "advertising". Too often, here is a hasty view, often well-meaning, in fact, implemented immediately and the "eraser" is set to work. Please inform correctly once. Endrick (Discussion) 05:50 July 14 2015 (CEST) (05:59, 15 July 2015 (CEST), date / time added later, see Help: Signature)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Buonasera2 (talk • contribs)

Hello @Buonasera2:, thanks for bringing this disagreement to the talk page, a few comments:

• de-Wiki decisions have no influence on en-Wiki as separate project with own policies (no offense meant: de-Wiki editors would say exactly the same in the opposite case).
• Translating and copy/pasting others' comments from de-Wiki is not a good idea imo - see above, these are 2 separate projects.

But aside from that, I disagree with the inclusion in general: Compare this "appreciation" with the GDR stamp. The stamp is an offical, notable recognition on national level. The logistics company is just a single company, giving their carrier a good name with some history. Of course that's a nice gesture, but nowhere near the same level as a national stamp, official memorial or other kinds of recognition for his legacy. In short: that kind of appreciation is not a significant, notable part of his legacy (even if it may not be promotional per se). A few more quick points, only incase the fact is kept: 1) The information would need a reliable source for an article on FA level. 2) The image is obsolete: it only shows a standard container ship and adds nothing to the article (readers know, how a container ship looks like). 3) The fact does not need a separate header, short sections are discouraged by MOS. The information could be simply included in "Legacy" (in a broader sense of the term). GermanJoe (talk) 18:38, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

I think the fact that some company names some ship after him is essentially trivia and not encyclopaedic information about the person. Albert Einstein should not include a list of all schools ever named after Albert Einstein, and I don't think this is a very different case. —Kusma (t·c) 09:48, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Hello Kusma, I thank you that you have taken the time to tell me your opinion on the matter. - I have made myself unfortunately too easy. - I should have put up for discussion the problem in the English Wikipedia. - Maybe the result would be similar to the failed in the German Wikipedia. - We are in this specific case disagree and leave things as they are now. -- Buonasera2 (talk) 20:05, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

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Modernisation

This article is mentioned at Wikipedia:Unreviewed featured articles/2020. Although not very much changed since the FAR, it is still/again in need of a thorough cleaning, especially with respect to the sources used (many are dated and no longer the best we can do). The main sources were Ackerknecht (a ten-page 1955 article on Forster's scientific work, with some biographic information) Reintjes (a 1953 biography in German) and Saine (a 1972 biography in English that is sometimes described as a bit naive), all of them before the publication of most of the volumes of the critical Forster edition (which is still unfinished). Georg's father Reinhold was thoroughly studied by Michael Hoare, who published a biography in 1976 and edited the journals from the voyage with Cook in 1982, all of these in English. A monograph about GF by Jürgen Goldstein was translated into English in 2019, and a "history of the critical reception" was published in 2001. There are several other biographical works in German in the last 25 years, most notably Uhlig's 2004 scholarly biography. TLDR: This article needs to be updated to use more recent scholarship. What I'm trying to do / points to work on are:

• Use the best recent scholarly sources (no matter if German or English), with additional references to possibly lower quality English sources for accessibility.
• More concretely, this means to rely more on Uhlig (2004) when that is the best source available, but always augmented with material in English, for example the editorial material in Thomas & Berghof's edition of Voyage. (In the context of the Voyage and its publication itself, a lot of material is available in English, and German sources are less necessary, compare A Voyage Round the World.
• The information about his marriage and family is clumsy and incomplete. (More about it is at Therese Huber, the article about his wife, with an interesting POV given at the article about her lover Ludwig Ferdinand Huber. My most recent attempts to write about this are in an article about his daughter Therese Forster).
• Perhaps undue weight (compare [1]) is given to the Polish stereotypes, which are usually discussed in detail only in specialised literature.
• The "Legacy" section needs more of an overview of modern Forster scholarship, e.g. mention the Georg Forster Society and more on the GDR interest and the Academy edition. I don't want to start an "in popular culture" section, but Forster has appeared as a character in several novels and at least one film.
• The "Works" section needs better criteria, and perhaps a little bit about the editorial history as wll.

I've made a start here (I hope we don't need footnotes on everything: date of birth, place of birth, and name of the subject all seemed to need explanations). While I'm at it, I'm changing the citations to {{sfnp}}. There's also questions of date format and English variant -- British conventions suit the subject better, but the article has been written in mdy, possibly because I lived in the US when I helped write most of it, or because both Saine and Thomas/Berghof use mdy. Happy to hear any thoughts or suggestions for improvement (or even opinions on whether this needs to go to FAR now). Pinging some users involved in the FAR or who have commented here: @GermanJoe, @DrKay, @SandyGeorgia (and @Carcharoth, whose concern about the article title I hope to have finally addressed after ten years). —Kusma (talk) 09:22, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I may be willing to help with the work you outlined some time in the coming months, but since I have no connection to academia right now, the 'more modern literature' part screams "paywall" at me. I honestly couldn't afford to buy the sources to work with them. I could perhaps use this as an example case to try the local university library and their willingness and ability to supply those sources to me as a private researcher. --ΟΥΤΙΣ (talk) 10:19, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

@ΟΥΤΙΣ, thank you for volunteering to help! About the paywall, there's some good news: Saine 1972, Steiner 1977, Harpprecht and Uhlig 2004 are all on one-hour loans at the Internet Archive. Goldstein is at The Wikipedia Library (and so are the letters of Therese Huber. So a lot can be done from home without even a good library. —Kusma (talk) 12:14, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Thank you Kusma for your work on this. I haven't tracked down yet who added the footnote about the name (or the editing history of the footnote) but thanks to whoever wrote that (EDIT: I see now it was in the rewrite by Kusma here, also linked above, I must pay more attention!). Unlike ΟΥΤΙΣ, I do currently have access to (some, not all) paywalled sources in academia, but lack the time to work on this properly (I am literally checking in once a month to catch up on things). Do please ping me though if you need verification of anything. Carcharoth (talk) 10:23, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Regarding paywalls, note that WP:RX is the easiest way to get such sources (or even scans of pages), I could barely have written any of my FA nominations without it, really generous work there. FunkMonk (talk) 03:21, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Name

@Carcharoth, more about the name: In my WP:OR opinion, most English sources in the context of the voyage with Cook use "George", while most other English sources use "Georg" (as another example, historian T. C. W. Blanning uses "Georg Forster" when writing about the impact of the French revolution on Germany). As this is a biography focusing on the whole life and reception, I find "Georg" the reasonable choice, maybe even without considering the disambiguation issues. (Johann George Adam Forster could be a non-WP:COMMONNAME option, though). —Kusma (talk) 13:03, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

When looking at the name there are several angles to look from: Who called it him what, when, and perhaps why?
If the account of his father intentionally naming him after a British ancestor is to believed and in combination with his family consistently using the English form, as well as himself publishing under it, then we should perhaps respect his and his family's choice.

What name did he consistently use for himself or was his own use varied over time?
Kusma, you have already done a lot of work on Forster: Do you find that a clear majority of sources (of all languages) call him "Georg" rather than "George"?
Or did Forster himself perhaps regularly use "Georg" in his official capacities in Germany?

We should avoid reproducing an external imposition on him, name-wise, for reasons like (unconscious) cultural conformity.
If he himself can be shown not to have cared much about what form of his name to use, there is no problem in following the majority denomination by secondary sources, I think.

Just as a slightly amusing aside: Many Germans traditionally use "Schorsch" as a (slightly affectionate) nickname for people called "Georg", which is in between the German and English forms, pronounciation-wise. --ΟΥΤΙΣ (talk) 16:20, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Lots of questions :) One general problem is that in the 18th century, names were readily translated, and the Forsters did that to their names as well. Forster senior's Observations appeared as "John Reinold Forster", for example. Georg's scientific work in Latin appeared as "Georgius Forster". His works in German that appeared to his lifetime sometimes use "Georg", sometimes "George", and I can see no rhyme or reason in when which name is used. GF's death certificate was in the name of "Georges Forster", but I found a text in French where GF calls himself "le citoyen George Forster". JRF's 1795 article about his son (pt1 pt2 uses "George" in some parts, "Georg" in others. The signature embossed on each volume of the Akademie-Ausgabe is "Georg Forster", but I don't know where they took that from. I haven't found anything that indicates he ever used "George" during official business in German in the Republic of Mainz.

The clear majority of sources uses "Georg". In German, it is the vast majority (I think most treat it as a translated name used in English just like Georges would be in French, not like a potentially more correct personal name); I've just looked through PDFs of the last couple of volumes of Georg-Forster-Studien (available from the University of Kassel), searching for "George", and almost the only "George" I found relating to GF was the character in Ina Seidel's historical novel. In English, the picture is mixed, but the dedicated monographs (Saine's biography and Peitsch's history of GF's reception) use "Georg". However, there are some high-quality sources using "George", most notably the editorial work in the context of the Voyage (RL Kahn and Thomas/Berghof both use "George", and so does Hoare's biography of JR Forster. Almost the entire Cook scholarship uses "George", just like Beaglehole does, but Richard Hough's biography of Cook calls him "Georg Förster" for some unfathomable reason). Britannica is Georg Forster. The Oxford DNB has him at "Forster, (Johann) Georg Adam" and says things like "He was invariably referred to in contemporary English sources as George Forster, a style which has occasionally led to his being confused with the contemporary traveller–writer of the same name, an East India Company servant."

I'm pretty confident that both Georg and George are morally acceptable, and both are possible editorial choices, but overall I prefer Georg. As you point out, it sounds like "Schorsch" in various German dialects, including that of Mainz but not those of Göttingen or Danzig that would probably be more relevant. —Kusma (talk) 21:37, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Here's another take, from Christoph Bode, published here (pdf): Georg Forster was born on 27 November 1754 in Nassenhuben (then in Poland, later in Prussia, now in Poland again). His father was Johann Reinhold Forster, vicar and polymath. The Forsters were partly of English-Scottish descent. Forster senior hated it when his surname was misspelt “Förster,” and although his son was christened “Georg,” Forster junior had no objections when, living in England and travelling with Cook, “Georg” was naturalized as “George.” Nor did he object when, later in France, he was, of course, referred to as “Georges” Forster. To him, it did not really matter."

Not sure this is true, given the factual error, but it does say what you asked for :) —Kusma (talk) 21:59, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

He definitely did use "Georg Forster", at least sometimes, see this letter. —Kusma (talk) 18:07, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Sources

Perhaps we should collect some views on reliability and scope of the sources used? I'll make a start with some comments.

• Uhlig 2004: excellent biography in German, aware of Forster's work and reception in several languages.
• Saine 1972: biography in English, mostly concentrating on his life in Germany (only eight pages cover the time until 1778) and his interaction with revolutionaries and Enlightenment scholars. Ignored or ridiculed by a lot of later scholarship
• Hoare 1976: definitive biography of JR Forster in English, with lots of content about Georg
• Thomas & Berghof 2000: in the edition of Voyage, there is a biography that reads a bit like a tertiary source. Perhaps better for reception than for biographical work
• Kahn 1968: in the edition of Voyage, there is a lot of material about writing and reception of the book
• Aulie: Some very accessible and scholarly written chapters in English, in the context of the Voyage. (book) (about the Forsters). Looks great to me, but doesn't pass the "high quality WP:RS" test by lacking a highly reputable publisher.

Will collect/comment more as I look through books/articles. (Trying to get high quality, easily accessible, and English-language references for everything; sometimes can't do all at once). —Kusma (talk) 14:31, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Anton Graff

Some old versions of the article used to say that the Tischbein (main) image could have been by Anton Graff. Maybe people were confusing it with this picture? The von Greyerz family involved here are most likely the descendants of Georg Forster's second daughter, Clara/Claire, who married Gottlieb von Greyerz. —Kusma (talk) 20:41, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Or not: archive of Bertschinger, Los Gatos 1988, possibly not RS, but cited in the edition of Therese Huber's letters (vol. 5). —Kusma (talk) 22:44, 5 September 2021 (UTC)