Talk:Object pronoun

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All that crap about 'regional differences' needs to go. Firstly, labelling some as 'incorrect' and others as 'correct' is hardly NPOV. Secondly, if the 'incorrect' uses exist as normal utterences, then they're aren't uses of an objective pronoun at all, but suggest that the sobjective/objective pronoun labels in these dialects is mistaken. --202.147.117.39 11:41, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)'

That 'than' example doesn't show that the objective and subjective distinction is being lost, but that objective case is correct for the argument of a preposition and subjective case is correct for the subject of a clause. But we already knew that, that's the default assumption. I think that the 'than' example should go to the top of the page, under 'what's the difference between objective and subjective'.j —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.19.73.197 (talk • contribs) 16:01, March 17, 2006

Which is which and what is what?

To someone who is not familiar with grammar terminology, the main (first) section does not make it clear which of the examples are objective and which are subjective. Also, some indication as to what 'target' and 'initiator' are would be helpful. To describe things by associating them with other grammatical terminology alone, just leads people in a circle of strange new words and explains very little to those who might actually need to seek help in understanding grammatical terms by referring to a free online encyclopedia. It would be nice if someone could make this clearer and more accessible to the uninitiated. Thanks. Drywontonmee 01:16, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

My first comment for wiki, so I hope I am not violating too many rules or protocols... I would like to support Drywontonmee's statement. I didn't know what a pronoun was. I was able to get through the articles on subjective, reflexive, and possessive pronouns and come away with a clear understanding. The section on objective pronouns, however, is not at all clear. Where the other sections each list their specific pronoun forms, the objective section has the sentence about comparing forms. This completely threw me for a loop. After reading the current text, I don't really understand what objective pronouns are.

This is the text that I found particularly confusing: '...as an example, the following comparisons can be drawn: the word "I" can be compared to "me", "we" compared to "us", "he" compared to "him", "she" to "her", "who" to "whom", and "they" to "them".' I know I can compare "I" to "me", but what is that comparison telling me about objective pronouns. Thanks, WaJimKelly 19:23, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Agree with both of you that the article isn't clear from a zero-knowledge base. Lacking time to edit the article properly, here's a quick guide: The subject, the "do-er" of the action, is I, He, She, We, They. The object, the "do-ee" (recipient) of the action, is Me, Her, Him, Us, Them.

Examples:

         I like her.  (I = subject, I'm the one doing the liking. The one being liked is the object, "her".)
         She likes me. (She = subject; me= object). 
         We like them.
         They like us.

The true grammar geeks will regard this as an over-simplification, but if it helps the uninitiated, well, that's the idea. You can leave comments, questions, etc. at my talk page here. Hope this helps.

Oh, and for "who" and "whom", somebody wrote a funny song about which to use when, here. Unimaginative Username 05:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

] i me we us he him she her who they them —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.196.242.154 (talk) 19:50, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

pronoun is part of 8 part of speech —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.54.47.19 (talk) 07:22, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Prescriptive versus descriptive grammar

This topic has its own Wikipedia article here. Do we really need to turn this article into a rant against prescriptive grammarians? I'm going to update the article to tone that down and include a link to the above. -Stian (talk) 00:17, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

• No. In fact, I think it goes too far in conceding the disappearance of "whom". But then, you've seen my (original) userbox: User:Unimaginative Username/Userboxes/Majority error, so you know my feelings. But I say, don't give up. There's no reason to concede an entire language to the least common denominator simply because the Internet now allows any uneducated ten-year-old to publish globally, nor others to read it, including non-native speakers, and accept it as correct. Encyclopediae should be the authority and example of good usage. Unimaginative Username (talk) 05:07, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Word order vs. questions

Completely misses questions. "Who do you trust" (old TV game show in the US) ... arrrggh! Should be "Whom do you trust?"... for an easy explanation of how to parse questions, the funny song I linked above contains a very serious, but simple, answer: [1]. Questions (interrogative sentences, if you will) deviate from SVO, but can be parsed by returning them to that order (Subject, Verb, Object), not just for "who" and "whom", but for any question of whether to use subjective or objective pronoun. (Not editing myself, as this was in answer to Stian's request, so I expect s/he'll edit it.

Edit: Also, commands, where subject is implied: "Let him who is without sin among you cast the first stone". Not "let he", as "him" is the object of the verb, "let". Who is the (implied) subject? "You". "You let him who is without sin..."

Word order is not always reliable when there is more than one (possible) subject or object. Most egregious example: 1960s pop hit "The Worst That Could Happen", by The Brooklyn Bridge:

"Girl, if he loves you more than me..." literally implies, "If he loves you more than he loves me (the male singing the song)" ... an interesting triangle, indeed. But not what was intended. What was clearly intended (from the context) was,

"Girl, if he loves you more than I (do) ... If he loves you more than I love you, then, OK, go marry him. The key here is not word order ("you" is clearly objective/target here, whereas the pronoun after it is not) but the implied remainder (see Ellipsis_(linguistics)) of the sentence: "more than I love you", or "more than I do".

Brief excerpt of copyrighted song lyrics used for academic discussion and critique under Fair Use. No impairment of copyright owner's ability to continue to sell work; may enhance interest. Unimaginative Username (talk) 05:06, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Junk article

I wish that articles about language were written by people who'd read at least half of a very introductory book about language. Consider:

In layman's terms, the target is the object on which the verb acts, and the initiator is the subject performing the action. For example, in the sentence "The dog chased the cat", the dog is the initiator (or subject), and the cat is the target (or object).

So in I underwent surgery, surgery is the object on which the undergoing acts. Yeah, right. Not.

"Theta roles"? "Agents", "themes", "experiencers", "patients"? No, no, you don't have to have heard of any of that stuff in order to write in Wikipedia about language. -- Hoary (talk) 01:07, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Prescriptive versus standard

This article's use of standard v. non-standard is unhelpful. For example in

1. Nonstandard: Who should I tell?

2. Standard: Whom should I tell?

3. Nonstandard: Whom should hear that?

4. Standard: Who should hear that?

(1) is probably the common usage, (2) a historically correct though now minority usage, (3) simply wrong or at best a hypercorrection, and (4) uncontroversially correct. Labelling (1) and (3) as having the same quality, or (2) and (4), is unhelpful. Similarly in

5. Standard: The winner was I.

6. Nonstandard: The winner was me.

7. Standard: I was the winner.

the preference for (5) over (6) is seen by some as prescriptive but in fact nonstandard as in the "It's I" v. "It's me" debate, while (7) is uncontroversially correct. Then in

8. Nonstandard: You are a better swimmer than her. (Than is used here as a preposition; as such, it assigns objective case to its argument, 'her'.)

9. Standard: You are a better swimmer than she. (You are a better swimmer than she [is].)

10. Standard: They like you more than she. (They like you more than she [likes you].)

11. Standard: They like you more than her. (They like you more than [they like] her.)

the preference for (9) over (8) is again prescriptive rather than descriptive. I am not sure whether (10) is standard in any sense, and should be "They like you more than she does". (Consider (a) whether there any ambiguity in the substitution "The boys like the brunette more than the blonde", and if there is then (b) which of "You ate more than I" or "You ate more than me" you are more likely to say.) The failure to distinguish what is in fact standard from what is prescriptive is needed to make this article meaningful examples: she brings the roses-she brings them — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.154.60.146 (talk) 01:01, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Correct. I think (1), (6) and (8) should be labeled Common and (2), (5) and (9) as Traditional prescriptive--Rumping (talk) 17:12, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

"Object" more frequent than "objective"

The terms "object pronoun" and "subject pronoun" (without the "-ive" suffix) can be considered standard, based on the objective (!) criterion of their vastly greater relative frequencies. See the graph at Google Ngram Viewer. Please, someone who knows how, edit the title of this article. Kotabatubara (talk) 23:19, 13 February 2012 (UTC)