Talk:Mains electricity by country

Europe

I found this one North American versus European distribution systems with some explanation of European power. It would be nice if some Europeans in this discussion explained it, though. In the US, it is usual that a 25KVA transformer supplies about four houses. For three-phase power, as distributed to smaller industrial areas, you see three separate transformers on power poles. That is, instead of a single three-phase transformer. I don't know about the economics of transformer sizes. How many houses does a European 230/400 three-phase secondary supply? Gah4 (talk) 00:40, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Three-phase electric power (industrial applications only) has some voltages. I presume the same voltages are used for three-phase residential distribution. electrical service types and voltages has another table. Gah4 (talk) 00:58, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Gah4 (talk) Electric power distribution is the appropriate page for this discussion, not here. FF-UK (talk) 19:48, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

OK, what I meant is in the secondary part of that article. It will need a lot of work to include what should be there, and not here. And if so, then this one becomes just plugs. There is no table by country, for example. Gah4 (talk) 03:09, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

My understanding is that this article is concerned with voltages on the consumer side of the distribution board. Electric power distribution is concerned with what happens between the transmission system and the service side of the distribution board. In other words, what we are concerned with here is the voltages available at the distribution board, but not how they get there. This has no effect on the voltage column of this article. FF-UK (talk) 07:44, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

The discussion has moved on a bit since the above (sorry, I've been "head down" on some intense work projects for the last few weeks). But I support this view by FF-UK. "Mains electricity" (UK) or "wall current" (US) is always talking about the end-user side of what we call the "panel". Distribution is another matter entirely. Jeh (talk) 10:21, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Full ack. This article here is about end user interfaces, meaning low voltage networks and their socket outlets. --Gunnar (talk) 22:01, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

I wrote on talk:Electric power distribution about possible changes, such as dividing between everything before, and after, the last transformer. Many of us know about US 120/240, and a few less about 120/208, such that most 120/240 appliances are designed to also work on 120/208. Many of us don't know about European 230/400, though I am starting to learn a little about it. Even less about Africa and Asia. But yes, 120/240 or 120/208 is available at the panel in US residences, the latter more usual for larger ones. Any comments about UK power? Gah4 (talk) 19:50, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Gah4 (talk) As I have written a couple of times before, one possibility is commercial documents like this one from Legrand: https://www.legrand.com/sites/default/files/Documents_PDF_Legrand/Nos_solutions/Guide_International_standards_EN.pdf which provides information for 7 major countries in the world. What this document also does is to provide information on some of the complexities when you start to look at how higher current appliances are connected. For instance, in UK homes we only use plugs and sockets up to 13A, and above that we hard wire appliances via suitable protective devices, also, 3 phase connection to a home in UK is very rare. In France high current devices may be hard wired or via plugs, and 3 phase is rare. In Germany 3 phase is the norm, and high current devices may be hard wired or via plugs. FF-UK (talk) 20:34, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Not so easy to follow, but it seems like UK distributes one phase of 230V, where Germany distributes three phase 230/400 to houses. And Brazil distributes two phases of a 127/220 three phase system. Just to be sure, at this point I am not interested in what goes near a house, but only what goes into an actual house, breaker panel or fuse box. If three-phase goes down a street, that would be mentioned in Electric power distribution, but if only one phase goes into a house, that would go here. Transformer VA ratings, and the number of houses per transformer might be interesting in Electric power distribution, too (typical values). Gah4 (talk) 03:34, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Gah4, Electric power distribution tells us (without a source) that In the UK a typical urban or suburban low-voltage substation would normally be rated between 150 kVA and 1 MVA and supply a whole neighborhood of a few hundred houses. That may be correct, but although I have looked on several occasions, I have completely failed to find any sources. You write: it seems like UK distributes one phase of 230V, it would be more correct to say that all three phases are distributed, but normally only one is connected to each house. My understanding is that the phases are connected in turn, ie the first house would be connected to the first phase, the second house to the second phase etc. But again, I am unable to give you a source for this. FF-UK (talk) 13:05, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

As noted, and I agree, this article should be what is seen at an individual house. Assuming you are in the UK, you could walk down the street and do some WP:OR. (Allowed for talk, not for articles.) Where I am in the US, we have underground power lines, so I can't easily go look. Not so far away, though, I can find them above ground. Do we have a WP:RS for three-phase to the house in Germany? Any other countries? From the pictures in [1] it looks like India has three-phase breaker panels, though maybe not a WP:RS. Gah4 (talk) 19:25, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

In Germany the (minimum) standard for the grid connection is three phase 400 V, 63 A. I think that was introduced in the 1970s. Three phase point of connection reduces problems with the neutral phase in case of asymmetric loads. That means about 40 kW maximum power, but it does not mean the whole distribution system is capable to deliver this. The maximum simultaneousness load is about 3-4 kW, meaning it is ok for a few houses in the street to start a 20 kW flow-type water heater, but if everybody did this, it would trigger the transformer protection. Distribution transformer sizes depend on the load density, 1 MVA is the largest but rather unusual. 630 kVA and 400 kVA are more common, and the smaller ones below that are for low population densities.Gunnar (talk) 22:22, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Looking in the street is not going to help as all LV distribution in UK cities and towns is underground. You have to be way out in the country to find visible poles, usually only to isolated single properties. FF-UK (talk) 19:49, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Interesting. It costs somewhat more, so usually would not be done in lower priced areas. Underground wiring is fairly rare in US cities. Looking at some places in Google Streetview, I see some with a pole with wires to many houses. I suppose this is telephone wiring, or something similar. Gah4 (talk) 22:16, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Here street view is a typical US street with primary and secondary wiring. Primary is a the top, secondary lower, which usually goes to four houses, two on each side of a street, or between two streets. Gah4 (talk) 02:46, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

In at least parts of Europe, underground mains supply to houses is used because power poles are too vulnerable to being blown over by heavy winds or runaway cars, while most inhabited areas have thick enough layers of easily worked topsoil to keep the cost of safely burying cables reasonable. However 50 years ago, running overhead exposed power wires into houses was still the norm, which means that such supplies can be found wherever they have not been replaced since back then. (Note: Denmark recently completed a 20 year program to almost completely bury all power distribution in political response to a major storm). Jbohmdk (talk) 18:05, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

As far as I know, underground costs more. Where I live, the neighborhood paid some years ago to get them underground, as it looks nicer. There is recent news, though, that PG&E is going to bury some of their long distance power lines. That will be interesting to see. Gah4 (talk) 22:45, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

three phase voltage

@Wtshymanski: Change [2] claims: "not true enough to be worth saying here" about the fact that three phase nominal voltages are by a factor of √3 larger than the corresponding single phase. I would say, that the difference between three phase voltages (phase to phase) and single phase (phase to neutral) is always sqrt(3), as this is a fact from geometry [3]. Basically the cosine of 30° is half of √3, and this ratio does not change whatever voltage level you choose. Therefore the relation between three phase voltage and corresponing single phase voltage is always √3 and obviously this is worth saying here at it is not known to everyone. "for instance, 480 V systems, 600 V systems" - I am not sure about these voltages but it seems (see IEC_60038) that 277 V / 480 V and 347 V / 600 V are the corresponding 1ph vs 3ph voltage pairs, thus the statement is perfectly right. Gunnar (talk) 07:35, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

The point is that 277 V and 347 V are never distributed as single phase utilization voltages. It's excessive detail and off topic for this article. --Wtshymanski (talk) 19:35, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

I think it depends on what you mean by distributed. Yes they are never distributed single phase, for example on outdoor overhead lines. But they are commonly distributed within buildings. It seems that in (US) commercial buildings, 277VAC is common for lighting. There might be one phase distributed to each room from the breaker panel. It is, then, a common voltage for fluorescent, and other discharge lamp, ballasts. Now that electronic ballasts are more usual, there are many that will run on any voltage from 120VAC up to 277VAC. (Though not claiming that means it should be in the article.) Gah4 (talk) 20:33, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

The 3 phase vs single phase voltages in the table are definitely incorrect in many cases.

There may be other higher voltage 3 phase supplies in some cases, but in almost every case in the table, the 3 phase voltage should be √3 times higher than the single phase voltages and/or vice versa.

E.g. Antigua and Barbuda is stated to be 230 volts single phase and 380 volts 3 phase. Either the 2 phase voltage is incorrect or the 3 phase voltage is. 230 x √3 = 398 volts and 230/√3 = 219 volts. According to this the 3 phase voltage in Antigua and Barbuda is 400 volts. https://www.worldstandards.eu/electricity/three-phase-electric-power/ Lkingscott (talk) 10:02, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

I have updated the voltages according to various sources for cross checking, but primarily the 3 phase voltages according to https://www.worldstandards.eu/electricity/three-phase-electric-power/

In particular the line and phase voltages are more consistent now, however the following places have different voltages shown in different sources and the single and 3 phase voltages are inconsistent:

Cape Verde

Haiti

Honduras, some sources say 110 and others 120V

Lebanon, some sources say 220 some 230V for single phase, but 3 phase is 400V, so 230V is more consistent.

Mauritania, some sources say 220V 3 phase others 380V, which would be more consistent with the 220V single phase supplyLkingscott (talk) 11:49, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

India

According to the article, the residential voltage in India is 230 V but three phase voltage is 415 V. However $230\times {\sqrt {3}}=398\approx 400$ and not $415$. The source for the 415 V value says that residential voltage is 240 V. Many Indian books and textbooks state this value to be 220 V. As far as I know, the residential voltage is 230 V and three phase voltage is 400 V following IEC 60038. I, however have no source for this value. All three values lie within the tolerance range.

Arnav Bhate (talk) 13:35, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

It's worthwhile bearing in mind that, these days, 230V is often used as a 'nominal' value such as throughout Europe (actually 230V +/- 10%). Although the nominal mains voltage for Europe is 230V, very few countries actually have 230V mains supplies. 220V (mostly) and 240V are often encountered both of which are well within 10%. 250V is sometimes encountered in some suburbs of large UK cities (London is a notable example) which is still within 10%. Most modern appliances are not overly fussy about their supply voltage apart from incandescent light bulbs which still exist for some applications. 86.162.147.159 (talk) 12:40, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Unreliable source #26

"Confirmed by looking at Aqualectric meter" is something like original research? Not a major editor so I'm not gonna actually go in and correct it, but like. Ellenor2000 (talk) 14:57, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Help me!

Moved from User talk:89.233.115.214 § Help me!

 – Cocobb8 (💬 talk • ✏️ contribs) 17:41, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Please help me with... Hello!

I came across the data in Wikipedia, today, for which I believe is wrong. It's about electricity in Slovenia. There is a table that says it is 230V, but in fact it is 220v. It's here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity_by_country

I don't know how to edit it, so I decided to just write here. Couldn't find any other possibility.

Thanks in advance for correcting that data.

Best regards, Alja Žehelj (from Slovenia) 89.233.115.214 (talk) 17:28, 14 March 2024 (UTC)