Talk:Royal Military Academy Sandhurst

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Untitled[edit]

The American Army has no equivelent to the Royal Sandhurst Military Academy. We used to have Naval Air Cadet and Air Force Air Cadet programs that lasted about 18 months. At these schools, cadets learned how to fly airplanes and be an officer. These schools were followed up by more specific training. Entrance into these schools did not require a college degree. The Air Force cadet school was replaced by the Air Force Academy.

I like the British system for training officers. The cost of a University Education is getting extremely expensive in the USA. A 44 week school might be a great way for the US Army to develope another generation of Army Officers without asking people to go into serious debt.
Have you never heard of College ROTC? They can give people full rides through college as long as they commit to military service afterwards. Also, there are the military academies (USMA for Army, USNA for Navy, etc), but they are more like 44+ months than 44 weeks.

How can Winston Churchill be an alumnus of the school if it was established in 1947? I doubt he attended a military academy after being Prime Minister.

He attended when it was the Royal Military College - same institution, different name. Greylin

User 80.229.234.246 appears to have changed the names of the commissioning course companies, for example from Blenheim Company to Falklands Company. However, the Sandhurst website [1] gives the names previously listed on this page. Can anyone confirm the names of the Sandhurst companies? Are they as stated in the present article, or as they are on the Sandhurst website? LJade728 04:05, 8 January 2006 (UTC) Unless there is any objection, I will soon change "Falklands", "Somme" and "Imjin" back to Waterloo, Blenheim and Inkerman. I have just spoken to a cadet who has just started at Sandhurst, and he has confirmed that the names given on the Sandhurst website are the correct ones. LJade728 02:27, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The company names vary each term. As at 10 Aug 06 they are correct. Greylin

where is it?

Sandhurst ;-) I'll add something about the location now - Khendon

Further to this, while there are certain battles that are usually prevelant as Company names, I'm pretty sure that the Company Commander and/or Company Sergeant Major get some sort of say; a Parachute Regiment CSM often chooses Arnhem as a name (a Scots Guardsman, Gurkha etc probably grabbed The Falkland Islands). --Thebigman 16:54, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Just changed "professional officers" to "professionally _qualified_ officers", which is both the correct term (usually heard as either PQOs or "tarts and vicars") and doesn't imply that other officers are unprofessional :-) . Also removed nurses from the list of examples as I believe nurses are always soldiers rather than officers. I'm not certain of that, but since there's doubt we might as well use a different example.

Added nurses and vets, both do the PQO course.

Nurses in the British Army are both commissioned and non-commisioned. They are eligiable for commsissioning after two years of being qualified. The statement "nurses are always soldiers rather than officers" is therefore wrong.

I hope this helps - last paragraph from a passer by not familiar with how to edit Wikepedia.

PS I think it pointless to mention Prince Harry so early on just because he is there now.

US equivalent?[edit]

Since this is a 44 week course, it seems to be more analogous to Officer Candidate School (U.S. Army) than the United States Military Academy (West Point). OCS takes people who are already college graduates and trains them to be officers, while West Point is a 4 year college. Do you have to be a college graduate to be admitted into Sandhurst? I am familiar with the United States Army, but not how things are done in the British Army, although I have read a lot of articles in wikipedia about the British Army. Thanks --rogerd 04:17, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, you don't have to be a college or university graduate to commision from Sandhurst —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.154.15.2 (talk • contribs) 07:42, February 26, 2006 (UTC)
Although these days most are. 80.175.189.65 23:36, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
So then, it more analogous to Officer Candidate School (U.S. Army) than the United States Military Academy? Right? --rogerd 23:46, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No it isn't. In the sense that anywhere is 'analogous' to RMAS, it would be West Point. This is why we hold an annual competition against the West Pointers; why we have staff exchanges, and so forth. Additionally, the British Army has never put much store by degrees and the like - what RMAS is all about is raw leadership ability. You either have it or you don't - and no amount of paper qualifications is going to change that basic fact. Darth Doctrinus 12:59, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It is not true that the British Army has never put much store by academic degrees. It needs officers with intellectual ability, which is why the ratio of graduates to non-graduates at Sandhurst is now nearly 9:1. Most of those who enter without degrees are ex-rankers or were, until very recently, students from Welbeck College. I believe all Welbexians now go on to university before starting officer training. However, all RMAS applicants do need innate leadership ability, regardless of academic qualifications. Greylin 12:29, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I suspect part of the reason for this, however, is that university is becoming a) ridiculously easy to get into and b) expected for anyone with half a brain. When I was eighteen only about 2% of the population went to university (remember, there were far fewer universities before a few years ago) and most people at Sandhurst (and Dartmouth and Cranwell) were not graduates. It was considered perfectly normal for people to go straight into responsible jobs without going to university first - university was only for the academic, not just the intelligent - whereas now it is rare for anyone with a half-decent IQ not to go. The change is in British society, not specifically in the Army. The armed forces did indeed used to have a bit of an ingrained distrust of graduates, although a certain percentage of their officers have always had a university education (some of the top generals in both World Wars were Oxbridge graduates, although many more had gone straight into the RMC or RMA from school); academic ability was always, however, considered to be a very poor third behind leadership ability and common sense/initiative.

I went to RMAS in 1986 when half of us were graduates so the above para. is incorrect.MJB (talk) 22:34, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I went to RMAS in 1965. The paragraph about universities and Sandhurst strikes just the right note. I can't see what MJB thinks in incorrect. The main point is that the change is in British society, where so many go to 'uni', but not many more than previously are roundly educated. The motto of Sandhurst is 'Serve to Lead', not 'Study to Command' Ballenstedter (talk) 22:19, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As to the American anaology, I entirely agree that it is West Point, not OCS. West Point's main function is to train career officers, with a university education bolted on. Sandhurst's main function is also training career officers, but it doesn't see the need to bolt the university education on. The core functions of the two institutions are identical. Sandhurst also has a 30-week longer course than OCS. The British analogy to OCS would actually be the former Officer Cadet Training Units (OCTUs), which were formed during World War II and continued in existence to train National Service officers until 1960, when they merged into Mons Officer Cadet School, which trained short-service commission officers until it became part of RMAS in 1972. The RAF retained an OCTU into the 1980s to train short-service commission officers, who didn't go to Cranwell. -- Necrothesp 00:55, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Academic qualifications are all very well but they don't signify any sort of leadership ability, nor do they confer any benefit when the s**t starts to fly around, except possibly to serve as an expensive and less effective substitute for toilet paper.
I believe the US system of military education is in fact modelled on the pre-Napoleonic French system, and this French system has historically placed more importance on academic qualifications than the equivalent British system which has traditionally placed more importance on good leadership and "the bayonet with some guts behind it". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.53.180 (talk) 17:38, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Mentioned on the radio[edit]

On today's (12-April-2006) BBC Radio 4 Today programme, there were two people discussing Prince Harry's graduation from Sandhurst. One of them, a UK national newspaper editor, said he'd been reading this article earlier in the morning, in response to the accusation he knew nothing about Sandhurst. 195.173.23.111 08:28, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

RMC Sandhurst[edit]

Currently, there's no information on Royal Military College in the article? The academy is post-WW2 entity, but the COllege would be of interest in Military History perspective. Anyone up to write the article on the college or expanding the history on 'Sandhurst' page? --131.207.236.198 12:55, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, something has got to be done about this. We can't go saying that the institution was founded in 1947, giving no information about its predecessor, and saying that Churchill attended it. Either the history section has to be expanded to include the founding of the Royal Military College or else a page on RMC Sandhurst ought to be added and linked.

Agemegos 01:29, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Information about the history of the Royal Military College Sandhurst, founded in 1800, and admitting junior cadets for training as company officers from 1802, is available on the RMA Sandhurst website: url=http://www.sandhurst.mod.uk/history/history5.htm. Agemegos 01:42, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Notable Alumni[edit]

Of all of the graduates of Sandhurst, this article states that there is precisely one notable alumnus, that being Prince Leka of Albania, who isn't all that notable to me. I've got to believe that there are many more. Pop singer James Blunt would currently be one of the more notable. I'm guessing this section needs improvement. Orangemarlin 03:10, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I question the value of a notable alumni section as, according to my reading of the article, every modern British Army officer in wikipedia could be included on the list. Perhaps there should be a category "Category:Sandhurst graduates" or something along those lines, or maybe a seperate alumni article. Just my two cents. --Cjs56 16:08, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, Prince Leka is probably the least notable alumni!!! Every royal family member, every recent British general, and who knows who else would be in this category. And how are we to determine who is notable and who isn't. I'm going to delete the section, and if you could add the category, that would be great. We're being bold!!! Orangemarlin 17:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If I am reading this right, it seems that Sandhurst is similar in function to either Officer Candidates School (U.S. Marine Corps) or Basic School, which makes me question if there should be either a category or list of alumni. The notable alumni presents its own list of problems that Orangemarlin mentioned, and for that reason I'd suggest going for the category. Cornell Rockey 02:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A category has been created called "Category:Sandhurst graduates". Please feel free to add people as appropriate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cjs56 (talk • contribs) 19:50, 13 February 2007 (UTC). Also, I am unsure how to direct people to the category via the main article. It seems silly to put a cat in the "See also" section. I'd love some input on this quandry.--Cjs56 19:52, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The sensible thing would probably be to only include people in a list of notable alumni who were not best known for being British Army officers. -- Necrothesp 00:20, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The black sheep section is POV and needs either re-naming, re-allocating of the people in to other groups or the removal of the section.--84.70.39.8 (talk) 14:35, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why re-naming? It is not racist. They are all notable and all unlikely to feature in a list of the Academy's proudest. Finally, if you have an opinion please sign in. --MJB (talk) 19:13, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bear Grylls[edit]

I can find no evidence of attendance at RMAS. He was TA and may have attended but no websites, including his own, mention RMAS. --MJB 11:57, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is unlikley that he attended RMAS as he was never commissioned.

is there any way i can get hold of an officer cadet who attends sandhurst if i dont know his last name one was very kind to me yesterday and i would like to be able to thank him 89.242.57.237 19:20, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Write care of the Adjutant(address on website) giving such details as you can. --MJB 04:30, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ranulph Fiennes?[edit]

There does not seem to mention on the explorers page. Probably the most famouse and interesting of them all! Joined Scots Greys, was at the time the youngest ever person to attain the rank of Capt, Seconded then to SAS then finished his military carea serving with in the Sultan of Omans army, where he was awarded their highest military award.Paulmcgrory (talk) 09:29, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Leadership approach[edit]

This article should contain a section on the theory and practice of leadership taught at RMAS, and how it has changed over the years. Deipnosophista (talk) 11:03, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

References questions[edit]

Please don't just delete the fact tags before you find references for those facts. Also, the references actually have to support the assertions made in the article, for example, the article needs a reference saying this was the sole establishment for training officers starting in 1947. Finally, Wikipedia wiki links don't count, see WP:CIRCULAR, WP:CITE and WP:V if you have questions. Thanks for your contributions! Kirk (talk) 19:57, 1 July 2009 (UTC) Sorted--MJB (talk) 22:07, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Change the title[edit]

"Royal Military Academy Sandhurst" sounds very american. Why not just Sandhurst? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.146.205.3 (talk) 16:17, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is Royal, it is very Military, it has an Academic aspect and it is near Sandhurst. Seems a great name. Why not acll the article 'Sandbags'? That is it's nickname! MJB (talk) 00:01, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

more Alumni[edit]

You forgot to mention some countries which have also sent their cadets to Sandhurst for training, to mention Belize and Guatemala. As far as I know, Belize sends at least two OCdts per year, while Guatemala sent one a year from 1995 to 2005, being the last a female OCdt.

I was the second Guatemalan to attend (Ruben Tellez, CC963, 26Pl Amiens). Something else which is not mentioned anywere is the term "floppy" which was sweetly dedicated to overseas cadets, and its various meanings.

All in all, RMAS is a great experience, and I do seriously wish we trained our officers that way here in Guatemala, but our reality is different. I keep wishing I could go back there.

Regards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.56.43.93 (talk) 17:27, 7 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Notable Alumni[edit]

Where is the evidence for most of these notable alumni?

The King ofSaudi Arabia is listed, however, after much searchingthere is no mention of his time at Sandhurst on the Saudi British embassy (which you think there would be?) or on any other online biography I can find (except ones that are directly lifted from here!). I have not been able to find a written biography of him either. I cannot find any mention of him on the Sandhurst website either. If no-one objects I shall delete. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.9.143.150 (talk) 11:45, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

it was common for foreign royalty and other persons to attend using their given names as opposed to the names they assumed upon ascending the throne. For example some subsequent rulers attended whilst still princes rather than as reigning kings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.53.180 (talk) 17:07, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Malaysian Royalty attending RMAS[edit]

Can someone please include His Highness the Sultan of Terengganu's name as one of the notable alumni? There is evidence, as at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizan_Zainal_Abidin_of_Terengganu . Please put his name under a 'Malaysia' header in the Royalty section.

175.144.9.120 (talk) 10:06, 17 July 2010 (UTC) July 17 175.144.9.120 (talk) 10:06, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Images[edit]

I've replaced the image of New College with a higher resolution image which is in focus. Two images of the Chapel are added and an image of the Old College. If helpful I also have images of the library - cf the historical image of the cricket field; and images of the original training college in the grounds that became an administrative building and images of the Churchill Theatre. If an editor thinks these would add to the article I'll upload them. WyrdLight (talk) 20:34, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Encyclopedia[edit]

This article is in the publicity mode, with subjective claims of performance not measurable, verifiable.Dmermerci (talk) 16:03, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have toned down where the information has not already been deleted. Dormskirk (talk) 10:23, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Clean-up[edit]

A lot of the difficulties with this article stem from the issue that there is a long list of unsourced alumni names. This means the article is too long, is largely unsourced and it is unbalanced (there are more interesting aspects to the subject than the alumni names). I therefore propose to move the alumni to a separate article probably entitled "List of alumni of the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst". It will still be unsourced and would be tagged as such but at least it will help facilitate a clean-up of this article. Dormskirk (talk) 08:23, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Now completed. Dormskirk (talk) 10:56, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Founder not mentioned[edit]

The foundation of the military college which became Sandhurst was almost entirely the work of one man, John Le Marchant, who died a hero's death at the Battle of Salamanca. That his name is not mentioned in the article is a surprising omission.Urselius (talk) 08:53, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. Now corrected. Dormskirk (talk) 22:50, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Monument of Victory Hill[edit]

Hello, I recently read about a monument which where moved from a german town Wendisch Evern to the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst in 1958 of the surrender of northwest germany. The monument should still be there, according to the articles. Unfortunately I cant find anything about this in this article. Maybe someone with more knowledge about this topic can add this to the article.

The sources are: Timeloberg und Victory Hill (German) - Timeloberg and Victory Hill (Englisch Translated)
and Kapitulation auf dem Timeloberg bei Lüneburg (German) - Surrender to the Timeloberg in Lüneburg (English translated) --Flor!an (talk) 16:30, 2 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Were degrees ever granted by Sandhurst?[edit]

According to the following article (written by a US Naval Academy professor), Sandhurst used to grant degrees, but no longer does so. However, I have heard that the British academies (Sandhurst, Dartmouth and Cranwell) have never been degree-granting institutions in their history. Which is correct? [2] Axeman (talk) 23:15, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Unavailable reference[edit]

In checking on the references to this article I found the reference 18 was no longer accessible through the link provided. Grateful if someone more adept than I am at retrieval could try to find a better link. Biodiplomacy (talk) 10:28, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Done, Biodiplomacy. Moonraker (talk) 11:29, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

161 OCTU[edit]

The article states that the RMC was used as an RAC OCTU from 1942. In May 1946, I was commissioned into the General List (Infantry) from Sandhurst and at that time no Royal Armoured Corps training was done at Sandhurst. Incidentally, the OCTU adjutant, at that time, was Captain the Earl of Cathcart who had, I understand, refused promotion in order to remain as adjutant. My passing out parade was taken by Prince Bernhardt of the Netherlands and the POP immediately preceding mine was taken by Her Royal Highness Princess Elizabeth. 77.100.4.108 (talk) 13:12, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It is just possible that it was used as RAC OCTU from 1942 to 1945. Does that fit with your own recollections? Dormskirk (talk) 13:49, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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