Talk:Indonesia–Malaysia confrontation

Asking a question

Should i include the separate section for the UFO sighting that occured from September 18 to September 24, 1964 in Surabaya, East Java? Alvaro Ivan Daniswara 2017 (talk) 13:01, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Why would it be relevant?-- Toddy1 (talk) 13:08, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, what relevancy is this? Eastfarthingan (talk) 17:40, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

that sighting occured while the Dwikora operation (during the Indonesia-malaysia confrontation) and some tried to shot down the UFO but failed. The event was known as "UFO Dwikora" Alvaro Ivan Daniswara 2017 (talk) 21:45, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

No, as it's not relevant. You may put it in List of reported UFO sightings though. Ckfasdf (talk) 09:51, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Number of British killed

The article uses the following source to back up a statement in the infobox and elsewhere that British armed forces had 140 killed:

• UK Armed Forces Operational deaths post World War II (PDF). Ministry of Defence. 2015. p. 4.

Note that the Gurkhas were part of the British armed forces, and therefore the claimed figure of 44 Gurkhas killed must be included in the figure for British killed.

Page 10 of UK Armed Forces Operational deaths post World War II lists many conflicts, but the following are relevant to this discussion:

• "Brunei (GSM) 8 Dec 1962 to 23 Dec 1962"

"British Forces were deployed by air and sea following an attempted coup against the Sultan of Brunei led by the North Kalimantan National Army which enjoyed strong covert support from Indonesia. The coup was successfully suppressed."

• "Borneo (GSM) 24 Dec 1962 to 11 Aug 1966"

"The Indonesian–Malaysian confrontation erupted into a violent conflict which stemmed from Indonesia's opposition to the creation of Malaysia. Initial Indonesian attacks into East Malaysia relied heavily on local volunteers who had been trained by the Indonesian Army, however, when the infiltration forces became more organized, the British responded in 1964 by launching their own covert operations into Indonesian Kalimantan, under the code name Operation Claret."

• "Malay Peninsula (GSM) 17 Aug 1964 to 11 Aug 1966"

"This campaign was an extension of the conflict in Borneo where British and Malaysian troops were operating against Indonesian insurgents. In 1964, the Indonesian President decided to attack the Malaysian mainland. Parachute landings were made in Johore while other troops managed to land across the Malacca Straits from Indonesian Sumatra. Between November 1964 and March 1965 there were five attempts to establish guerrilla groups in Johore, all of which failed."

The following table is based on page 8 of UK Armed Forces Operational deaths post World War II, the totals are the same as given on page 4. The Wikipedia article defines the Confrontation as starting on 20 January 1963 (p10 of the source says 24 Dec 1962), and treats the Brunei revolt of 8–17 December 1962 as a different conflict. The Wikipedia article includes the expansion of the conflict to the Malaysian Peninsula as part of the Confrontation. The fifth (yellow) column is the total for Borneo plus the Malay Peninsula, which is the definition of the Confrontation used by the Wikipedia article.

Year	Brunei	Borneo	Malay Peninsula	Borneo + Malay Peninsula
1962	7	2		2
1963		29		29
1964		43	11	54
1965		47	19	66
1966		19	9	28
Total	7	140	39	179

I think the correct figure to be quoting from the source is 179 (including Gurkhas).-- Toddy1 (talk) 15:24, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

"From December 1962 until August 1966, the British lost 19 killed and 44 wounded and the Gurkhas, who with the Royal Marines had necessarily taken from brunt of the fighting, lost 43 killed and 83 wounded. The Australians lost 22 killed with 7 killed in action and the New Zealanders had 7 killed and 7 wounded in action. Of the three known to have been captured by the Indonesians … none returned alive." van der Bijl, Nick (2007). Confrontation, The War with Indonesia 1962–1966. Barnsley: Pen & Sword Military Press. p. 241. ISBN 978-1-84415-595-8.

"During that time, total Commonwealth losses had amounted to 114 killed and 180 wounded, a figure that included 43 Gurkhas killed and 87 wounded, 16 Royal Marines killed and 20 wounded, and the infantry battalions 16 killed and 51 wounded." Jackson, Robert (2011) [1991]. The Malayan Emergency and Indonesian Confrontation: The Commonwealth's Wars 1948–1966. Barnsley, South Yorkshire: Pen & Sword. p. 139. ISBN 9781848845558.

Moulton, J.L.; Barclay, C.N.; Yool, W.M., eds. (1967). Brassey's Annual, the Armed Forces Year-Book, 1967. London: William Clowes & Sons Ltd. p. 349. [Pages 333-409 contains "Extracts from: Statement on the Defence Estimates 1967 (Cmd. 2902)"] "The following casualties occurred:

		Killed	Captured	Wounded	Total
Commonwealth	Military	114	–	182	296
	Civilian	36	4	53	93
	Total	150	4	235	389
Indonesian		602	886	222	1,710

The cells shaded yellow are not in the source, but calculated from the other cells in the table. -- Toddy1 (talk) 12:46, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Carver, Michael (1986). "Conventional Warfare in the Nuclear Age". In Paret, Peter (ed.). The Makers of Modern Strategy: From Machiavelli to the Nuclear Age. Princeton: Princeton University Press. p. 806. ISBN 9780691027647. Casualties were 114 killed and 181 wounded, a high proportion Gurkha. There were also 36 civilians killed, 53 wounded, and 4 captured, almost all local inhabitants. It was estimated that 590 Indonesians were killed, 222 wounded, and 771 captured. -- Toddy1 (talk) 20:50, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Australia

"Indonesian Confrontation, 1963–66 | Australian War Memorial". www.awm.gov.au. "Twenty-three Australians were killed during Confrontation, seven of them on operations, and eight were wounded." -- Toddy1 (talk) 15:30, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

New Zealand

"NZ and Confrontation in Borneo – Confrontation in Borneo | NZHistory, New Zealand history online". nzhistory.govt.nz. "Although there were no fatalities as a result of enemy action, 12 New Zealanders died or were accidentally killed in Southeast Asia the period of Confrontation between 1964 and 1966. The New Zealand roll of honour records the deaths of 20 New Zealanders on operational service in the Malayan and Malaysian campaigns between 1948 and 1966." -- Toddy1 (talk) 15:30, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Save the establishment

to avoid vandalism Trollers739 (talk) 16:21, 18 March 2024 (UTC)