Talk:Scapa Flow

Water temperatures?

What are the water temperatures in Scapa Flow at various times of the year? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.200.234.62 (talk) 07:35, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Initial

According to "Castles of Steel" by Robert K. Massie and no British warships were sunk within Scapa Flow during WWI by U-boats. Only two U-boats attempted to penetrate the harbor during WWI: U-18 on 23 Nov. 1914 and UB-116 on 25 Oct. 1918. U-18 was spotted and rammed by a patrolng trawler and UB-116 was detected by hydrophones and destroyed by electronically activated mines. UB-116 also gained the distinction of being the only submarine destroyed by a shore-controlled minefield during WWI and also as the last U-boat sunk.

Reference starts on page 161 of "Castles of Steel". Massie also discusses the sinking of the HMS Royal Oak 25 years later during WWII by U-47.

Cockney slang NPOV

Scarper really does derive from Scapa Flow. Thereofore the latest edit here is an instance of NPOV. Hence the epithet on the article.

The Shorter Oxford Dictionary, a reasonable source, has, under scarper "reinforced during or after the war of 1914–18 by rhyming slang Scapa flow go." Matt Stan 01:43, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The key word here is reinforced. That means that the word existed before, and came from a different ultimate source (in this case the Italian scappare). The rhyming slang explanation would not have arisen without the word existing prior thereto, and the word would not have become popular if it were not for the rhyming slang explanation, so only with both effects do we arrive at the current word. Thus, the derivation is more complex that simply right and wrong. Why not rewrite the paragraph something like this:

Although "scarper", a slang word meaning to run away, originally derives from an Italian word scappare, meaning "to escape", it became much more popular after the First World War, when Cockney rhyming slang started to use the rhyme "Scapa Flow" - "go".

Stemonitis 11:29, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Radioactive metal

Later more ship and ship parts were salvaged. Some of the metal has been used in space satellites. Metal forged before 1945 did not absorb the radioactivity in the atmosphere from nuclear detonations, and will have a smaller effect on fine sensors used in space. Source: The grand shuttle: The sinking of the German Fleet at Scapa Flow in 1919. Hodder and Stoughton, London, 1982

I have cleaned up this section but am still unsure about it. Has anyone else ever heard this? Cjrother 03:20, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This is correct. It is also used in Medical instruments. Richard Harvey 11:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Casualties

Quoth wiki: "The nine sailors killed were the last casualties of the First World War."

Quoth eye witness Bunday http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/jralston/rk/scapa/bunday.htm "German prisoners in life boats after scuttling their ships. Some of the boats were fired on by destroyers for refusing to fly a white flag. About 50 were killed"

Telling the killed persons the last casualties of First World War would imply that these persons were still on war. These person were unarmed and in life boats AFTER sinking the ships. Shooting on unarmed prisoners is for me not an act of the world war. What this situation can be better described should be done by a native speaker. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.175.152.211 (talk) 12:18, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Cultural References

Is it worth adding a cultural references section, since there are 2 bands named Scapa Flow (One australian and one swedish, i think) and a song by the band British Sea Power that mentions scapa flow in the lyrics. I know this isn't much but perhaps others know of more to warrant the inclusion of such a section. (Also perhaps a re-direction for the bands) Sperac01 04:30, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Slang

Scapa Flow has a dimension as slang, entirely related to the Scapa Flow of the article, therefore I added the category slang. It was removed, but I've reinstated it. The reason for this is so as not to hide 'scapa flow' from the slang category directory. It doesn't sit right with me to obscure anything if space permits. If you think that 'scapa flow' as a slang term should nonetheless not be categorized as such in wikipedia (along with scapa flow being categorized in all other respects) please explain :) That would be appreciated. Hakluyt bean 20:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Merge from Gutter Sound

See talk page of Gutter Sound. The wrecks were actually scuttled across the whole Western side of Scapa Flow not just in Gutter Sound. Viv Hamilton 16:11, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Support Since the wrecks happened all over Scapa Flow, there is no need for the separate article. Lurker (said · done) 13:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Casualties 2

The statement that the German sailors who died during the scuttling of th German fleet were "the last casualties of the First World War" seems rather arbitrary. What criteria did the author use in asserting this? At the simple level, the war ended in 1918, so these sailors were not casualties of it. Or the "big view" might be that the Second World War sprang from the first, in which case, could "the last casualties of the First World War" fell in 1945, or at some point toward the end of the Cold War? I think this needs clarification. Davidelit 06:41, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

It think that it could be stipulated that hostilities in WW I ceased on 11.11.18 at 11 a.m. The state of war persisted until the signing of the Treaty of Versailles in 1919 in the Hall of Mirrors, and in my view no injuries caused after that episode can possibly be held to be First World War casualties. But more to the point is we should surely count the very large number of servicemen who were injured prior to the armistice, but who sucumbed to the effects of their wounds after the signing of the Peace Treaty? --Anthony.bradbury^"talk" 14:22, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Radiation free steel

Perhaps the article should mention the fact that the ships scuttled in Scapa Flow are particularly valuable, since the steel they are constructed of is relatively radiation free. All steel made after 1945 (atomic bombs) contains radiation. The steel from these pre-1945 ship wrecks is used for sensitive equipment etc. Stingray 22:58, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. It is mentioned in Gutter Sound which contains more detailed information about the scuttling - but it's incorrectly contained there, since Gutter Sound is only part of the greater Scapa Flow area where the scuttlings took place. It's on my todo list to reorganize that content into a battle-type article - High Seas Fleet scuttling at Scapa Flow, or some such - and clean up this article at the same time. If you have any sources or citable facts about the steel, I'd be grateful if you added them to the Gutter Sound article. Maralia 00:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Done that for you, Marilia. Also see my post on the Gutter Sound Talk Page. Richard Harvey 09:14, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

HUGE image.

The aerial photograph of Scapa Flow http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Scapa_Flow%28RLH%29.gif on the scapa flow page is just a resize of the original image, which is 2 or 3 megabytes, could someone do a resize and put the thumbnail on the main page? (I'm not sure how), thanks FRA (talk) 07:18, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Broken Navy German Teacup.

In September 2010 a broken plate bearing the same crest was retrieved from Scapa Flow. On the reverse the plate has WM Adams & Co. England markings (and a naval anchor with 'A' and '5'). I think this indicates that the pottery is not connected with the German Navy? There is reference to pottery with 'WR' marking here (http://southwestmafia.com/forumswm/showthread.php?t=6340&page=2). (not sure how to contact the author directly - sorry am new user) Smithurs (talk) 15:51, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Haven't a clue about the pottery's origins. I suggest you contact Richard Harvey who took the original image. Ben MacDui 09:12, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

map, please

This article needs a map, please. 74.218.22.42 (talk) 14:33, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

• Done. Fæ (talk) 14:56, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

WWI WW1 World War I or One

I think it would be good to create consistency with the nomenclature for the war(s). The article uses various methods, sometimes different within a sentence. The generally accepted standard is 'World War I', abbreviated to 'WWI'. Either way, the use of '1' rather than 'I' is to be avoided. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fine Hid (talk • contribs) 21:56, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I had to look up how to pronounce "Scapa" so I added it to the article. Oxford gives two pronunciations, if anyone knows if one of them is more "correct" (i.e. local) then they can put it first --Moogsi (talk) 18:52, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

U18

Maybe the German and the English section should try to consolidate their differing versions of the events involving the U18 submarine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.43.106.44 (talk) 07:24, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

New Material in the lead

User:Orkney Vole In my opinion the material put into the lead, (Revision as of 13:20, 6 May 2015), should be in the body of the article with a citation. SovalValtos (talk) 14:02, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

The last casualties of the World War I

I find this section tricky. First, Russia descended into a media blackout totalitarian state where Austro-Hungarian or German state actors may have had some killings into the 1920s or late 1919 or vice-versa against POWs, or far flung corners of theaters of war such as the remnants of the Ottoman Empire may be considered 'World War I casualties'? I don't know. I doubt anyone does. More importantly 1000s died undischarged since Nov. 1918 in hospitals in Germany, France, England etc. into the 1920s those are also such casualties. Their cause of death was not poor medical treatment.

1. Should we just say these nine deaths appear to be the last lethal blows against German forces of World War I - (albeit perhaps considered killings for purely economic i.e. anti-criminal damage reasons)?
2. Does anyone know what happened to the men who fired on those sinking the naval "stock" of ships? (if they were sentenced then these killings are among those tens of vengence murders and not World War I deaths per se)
3. Has a Human Rights writer exposed what appear to be barbaric killings, reflecting the propaganda, solidarity and entrenched hatred of the respective navies for the better part of a generation?

- Adam37 Talk 19:03, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

WW2: seaplane base

There’s no mention in the article of Scapa Flow being used as a seaplane base. But I know it was as my father was stationed on it for many years during the war. There were Sunderlands and Catalinas. Boscaswell talk 10:19, 28 January 2019 (UTC)