Talk:Sabra and Shatila massacre

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Restructuring[edit]

The subsections U.N. condemnation, MacBride commission and Israeli Kahan commission are listed under the section "Postwar testimonies by Lebanese Forces operatives" despite having nothing (or very little) to do with the testimonies. I propose to restructure the article to move the postwar testimony paragraph to a subsection of "Role of various parties" and to rename the section about the UN condemnation and the two mentioned commissions to something along the gist of "International Response and Investigations".

Sharon libel suit[edit]

I think it is worth mentioning that Sharon pursued a similar suit against Time in an Israeli court, which was settled by both parties with compensation which was reported as substantial ("Neither party would disclose the amount of the payment, but the Israeli radio reported that the figure was substantial" - https://www.nytimes.com/1986/01/23/nyregion/time-magazine-and-sharon-settle-the-libel-suit-he-filed-in-israel.html).

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 December 2024[edit]

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Please change the highest estimated number of casualties from 3,500 to 4,500, as stated by the Lebanese Red Cross (quoted in this UN report). 5.61.122.219 (talk) 13:03, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not done First, the linked document is not a UN report, it is a 2021 submission by an NGO to the UN Human Rights Council. Second, the submission mentions 4,000-4,500 (not 4,500) and is sourced to Bayan Nuwayhed's Sabra and Shatila, September 1982. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 07:22, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are there modern sources that state the number of casualties as low as 460?[edit]

- The current source that the article links seems to be critical of the claim. (Israel's lebanon war : Ze'Ev Schiff : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive)

- If there are no modern-day credible sources that support the 460 figure, I think the sidebar should be changed (prehaps to the Israeli lowerbound?)

- My reasoning is, if I say "some people wrongly believe X", you surely can't quote me as proof X is true.

- Or put another way, if no one currently believes that the number can be this low (then there is no dispute about it). Bowad91017 (talk) 18:29, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This seems like a good point. The report of Assad Germanos is far from reliable, even concluding that "the political and militia leadership of the Christian Phalangist Party was not responsible for the massacre"[1]

Should the lower number be changed to 700 per the cited Ze'ev Schiff source which states "the Kahan Commission adopted the estimate of Israeli intelligence (700-800 dead)"? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 08:39, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request: Number of victims in the sidebar from 460 to 700[edit]

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What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff}}):
−
sidebar: ~~460[2]~~ to 3,500[3] (number disputed)
+
sidebar: 700 to 3,500[3] (number disputed)
Why it should be changed:

The change was proposed in Talk:Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre#Are_there_modern_sources_that_state_the_number_of_casualties_as_low_as_460?

The main argument is the source cited for the 460 figure casts doubt on it [1]. Today it does not seem to be any support for the accuracy of this figure.

References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

[1] https://archive.org/details/israelslebanonwa00zeev/page/282/mode/2up

Bowad91017 (talk) 09:32, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done Skitash (talk) 10:06, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

Edit request: added requested page number and estimated values[edit]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

What I think should be changed:

Why it should be changed:

The page number was requested, also added the estimated amount to be less vague.

References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):*

Here is a screenshot of the page https://pasteboard.co/4brdZhsXT8gX.png

Bowad91017 (talk) 09:23, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

Done ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 21:06, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]