Talk:Demographic history of Kosovo

Just another piece of Serb propaganda

This article is grossly biased in favour of a Serb nationalist point of view — and lies. As we can see through the maps of the time, most of the territory which is current Kosovo had Albanian-speaking majority. The texts in the article which refute the images of the maps were written by mostly Serbian academics (see the 1985 SANU Memorandum), mostly during the period between the death of Tito in 1980 and the assassination of Zoran Dindic in 2003.--179.153.193.237 (talk) 13:28, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the pointer. I'll try to fix some of it. bobrayner (talk) 20:35, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Antidiskriminator, why did you reinsert unsourced and badly-sourced content with a misleading edit summary? bobrayner (talk) 02:00, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Antidiskriminator, why did you reinsert unsourced and badly-sourced content with a misleading edit summary? bobrayner (talk) 12:02, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Not only this but they use Jagodic as a source, a Serb nationalist, to claim some forcibly movements of Albanians into the territory in the 18th century, mainly a few tribes that revolted and were expelled into areas already Albanian, for example Albanians also inhabited the Eastern part such as the towns, Toplica area, Llapi etc from before these events . There were movements between these Albanian territories. Many Serbs moved in too after 1690, there is no evidence all the refugees came from Kosovo.... These are the statistics according to Malcolm:

" Since then I have looked more closely at accounts of the Serb population in central Hungary after 1690. Lists survive of the heads of household of the Serb community in Buda in 1702 and 1720, which in some cases give the person's place of origin. An analysis of these by Dusan Popovié gives the following totals: 70 from Serbia (excluding Kosovo); c.30 from Kosovo; c.20 from Montenegro; 11 from Bosnia; 4 from Macedonia; 1 from Bulgaria. In this sample, therefore, the Serbs from Kosovo make up 22 per cent of the total.*° "

They claim all the refugees came from Kosovo which is not even supported by any evidence. Not only this but 30k-40k families when it was actually 30k-40k people, many who came from other areas as even indicated by the statistics. And the ones from Kosovo mainly came from the Eastern part

https://archive.org/details/rebels-believers-survivors-studies-in-the-history-of-the-albanians-malcolm-noel-2020/page/141/mode/1up TheCreatorOne (talk) 05:12, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

LOL — Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.187.101.241 (talk) 18:14, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 July 2023

Sabrina Ramet misinterpreted the source she used for the claim of:

For 1918 to 1921, Sabrina Ramet cites the estimate that the expulsions of Albanians reduced their numbers from around 800,000 – 1,000,000 within Kosovo down to some 439,500.[107]

The source she used for that claim is "Ivo Banac, The National Question in Yugoslavia: Origins, History, Politics (Ithaca, N.Y.: Cornell University Press, 1984), 298" which reads:

"Indeed, the official census reports on Albanians probably halved their number (reducing it from approximately 8oo,ooo-1 million people to 441,740 in the preliminary report on the 1921 census and to 439,657 in the final report)"

It's a pretty big difference, so I think the passage should be replaced by the original claim, coming from Ivo Banac. Doireidh (talk) 10:16, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

@Doireidh: without proper context, anyone reading the two statements would struggle to spot the difference. Would you mind elaborating? Thanks. M.Bitton (talk) 15:38, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.

I don't get it either. The original citation doesn't explicitly say the halving took place over 1918-1921, but it's implied by the preceding discussions of Serbian military operations beginning in 1918. The relevant page of Banac (1984) is viewiable on Google Books, so I added that citation in line with the Ramet cite, and also added the book to the Reference section. Closing this until OP can give more precise request. Xan747 (talk) 23:30, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Interesting

Interesting how you claim there were only Vlachs but Albanians only appeared, secondly there is no evidence of any Serbs in this territory until the 12th-13th century, we got countless of linguists that argue ancient names like Nish, Shtip, Shkup etc are from Albanian. It should be allowed to show an Albanian continuity instead of removing it because it doesn't suit your propaganda, the claim about Serbian scholars in the 11th century is nothing but speculation considering Serbs were definitely not the inhabitants of the region during that period and definitely should be removed. We got plenty of toponyms in the Nish area which shows an Albanian presence since the medieval period, We got in the Shkupi area Albanian presence since the medieval period etc. I wonder why do you keep removing this ? Not to mention Albanians were expelled from that same area in Nish. Secondly the so called Great migration of Serbs 1690 is just an invention, it was a war and affected all populations and there were movements from both sides, in and out. The name 'Dardania' is explained in the Albanian languages. Albanians are continiously mentioned in this territory since the Serb occupation and Ottoman occupation. The whole page is made up to make it seem as if Albanians just appeared but Vlachs are supposed to be the indigenous people by the ... Albanians are mentioned right around the Serb occupation 12th-13th century and there are sources that show this... Also in the Llap region and even Nish-Toplica area where you find Albanian toponyms. Just write when these mentions occurred , don't write by the ... TheCreatorOne (talk) 11:55, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

1690

That whole 1690 is nothing but an invention from the Serbian part. For example the claim was that 30,000 - 40,000 families left when the patriarch actually said 30,000-40,000 people and many of these , if not most of them, had come from the Belgrade area, secondly later Serb writers interpreted that as 30,000-40,000 families and said all of them had come from Kosovo without any evidence. Not only this but they claimed they came from the towns which were in fact mostly Muslim Albanian. They claim there was a massive migration from an area that was Albanian even back then and Muslim. The claim isn't supported by the demographics. Only way one could support such an exodus was the areas of Eastern Kosovo which had a higher proportion of Slavs. And even that does not add up to 30,000-40,000 people (let alone families) considering majority of the refugees listed in Hungary were from what is today Serbia as noted by Malcolm. You also had refugees from other areas. Also persecutions occurred on all populations, especially Catholics, co-religionists of the Austrians. Where is supposedly the evidence on only persecutions of Serbs ? Also completely irrelevant that some tribes from Northern Albania were supposedly settled, these were very few, there were movements in general in a territory that had a large Albanian population. You are manipulating the facts to make it seem like there was a flight of Serbs and settlement of Albanians only. TheCreatorOne (talk) 01:21, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

You are telling nothing but a false version of history

Why did you remove it ? There is nothing that supports what you claim, nor any kind of mass exodus of Serbs out of this territory especially not in an area that was inhabited by Albanians, not only this, but the people who revolted were specefically Albanians .You claim that we should be neutral but what you are telling is nothing but some false version of history and a fairytale where Serbs are favored. You are a bunch of propagandists and it's obvious you are threatened by the truth https://global.oup.com/academic/product/rebels-believers-survivors-9780198857297

This essay examines both the historical facts concerning the migration of Serbs from Kosovo in 1690, and the claims made about that migration by subsequent historians—claims which, at their most extreme, suggested that hundreds of thousands of Serbs departed, with huge effects on the ethnic composition of the region. This essay demonstrates that there was no large-scale organized exodus of Serbs under the Serbian Orthodox Patriarch, Arsenije Crnojević: his departure from Kosovo in early 1690 was extremely hasty, and he had not, in any case, been leading organized resistance to the Ottomans. A large number of Serbs did move with the Patriarch to Hungarian territory later in that year; he himself gave their numbers as 30,000 or 40,000. But they had gathered, from many areas, in the Belgrade region, and only a small proportion were from Kosovo itself. One unsupported claim was made many years later, by a Serbian monk, that the Patriarch had brought 37,000 families to Hungary; and in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries many Serb writers interpreted that figure maximally, while also assuming that all those people had come from Kosovo. This essay analyses the ideological influences (operating primarily on Serbs within the Habsburg territories in the nineteenth century) that helped to shape that interpretation; it also criticizes excessive claims made by modern Albanian and Turkish historians.

As for tribes being settled, mainly few tribes settled in an area that was inhabited by Albanians. Many Serbs moved into this territory later. They came from Serbia, Montenegro from tribes such as Vasojevic etc. You pretty much remove the truth. I have never in my life seen more pathetic people than you. You removed this part too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Albanians,_1877%E2%80%931878 , That shows a continuity in the Nish area since the medieval period at least.

In 1660 Çelebi went to Kosovo and referred to the central part of the region as Arnavud (آرناوود) and noted that in Vushtrri its inhabitants were speakers of Albanian or Turkish and few spoke Bosnian. The highlands around the Tetovo, Peja and Prizren areas Çelebi considered as being the "mountains of Arnavudluk". Çelebi referred to the "mountains of Peja" as being in Arnavudluk (آرناوودلق) and considered the Ibar river that converged in Mitrovica as forming Kosovo's border with Bosnia. He viewed the "Kılab" or Llapi river as having its source in Arnavudluk (Albania) and by extension the Sitnica as being part of that river. Çelebi also included the central mountains of Kosovo within Arnavudluk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evliya_%C3%87elebi

What persecution of Serbs are you talking about ? The people that were persecuted were Muslims and Catholic Albanians that revolted. TheCreatorOne (talk) 03:58, 8 February 2024 (UTC)