Talk:Volcae

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velk[edit]

Pokorny has (p. 1145f.) :

velk-2, velg- `feucht, naß 1. velk-: Air. folc `Wasserflut', folcaim `bade, wasche', cymr. golchi, corn. golhy, bret. gwalc'hi `waschen'; ahd. welh (neben welc, s. u.) `feucht, milde, welk', (ir)welhe:n `weich, schwach werden', mnd. welen `welken', ags. wealg `geschmacklos, widerlich', engl. wallow, nisl. valgr `lau'; wohl auch norw. valen `gefühllo s oder erstorben vor Kälte'; let. valks `feucht', valka `fließendes Wässerchen, feuchter Ort'; illyr. FlN Volcos, ON [Ou)olkai=a e(lh]. 2. velg-: ahd. welc `feucht, milde, welk', mnd. walcheit `macies', welk `welk, dürre', mengl.welkin `welken'; mit anderer Vokalstellung ags. wlæc, wlacu `lauwarm', mnd. wlak ds. (mit anld. s- mhd. swelk `welk', swelken, ahd. swelchen `welken'); vermutlich ahd. wolchan n., wolcha f., as.wolkan n. `Wolke'; lit. vi\lgau, -yti, va/lgyti `anfeuchten', vi\lks^nas `feucht', ablaut. apr. welgen n. `Schnupfen', let. valgums `Feuchtigkeit', ve,l^gans und val^gs `feucht', auch lit. val~gis `Speise', va/lgau, -yti `essen' (vom Begriff der flüssigen, breiigen Nahrung aus, vgl. russ. volo/ga `flüssige Nahrung'); slav. *vùlgùkù `feucht' in russ.-ksl. vùlgùkù, da zu poln. wilgna,c/ `feucht werden', russ. vol/gnutì ds., ablaut. *vo:lga: in aksl. vlaga f. `Feuchtigkeit', russ. volo/ga `Flüssigkeit, Zukost', dazu volo/z^itì `anfeuchten, mit Butter kochen'; hierher der russ. FlN Wo/lga (= c^ech. FlN Vlha, poln. FlN Wilga) aus slav. *Vìlga. Lit.: WP. I 306, Trautmann 358, Vasmer 1, 216 f., 219.

Germanic to Celtic[edit]

The article says "This is dubious, since it would imply a loan from Germanic to Celtic." What is inherently dubious about a loan from Germanic to Celtic? Angr (talk • contribs) 12:16, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Angr,

I agree with you: when two languages get in touch, words have always traveled in either one of the two directions (though usually with different weights, of course).

Consequently, I'm deleting that strange phrase, until anybody provides some proof which would invalidate the rule.

Kind regards,

Zack Holly Venturi 21:14, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology[edit]

The following text concerning etymology has been suppressed by an editor who substitutes roughly comparable unreferenced assertions:

Folk etymology relates the name Volcae to the English word "folk", derived from Proto-Germanic *fulka "people" or "host". Another possibility would be derivation from PIE ulk^wos "wolf" (cf. Russian Волк = volk with Latin alphabet). This is also unlikely, since the expected P-Celtic form of the word would be *volp-. A more likely suggestion is a derivation from PIE *velk, a word for water or dampness (Old Irish failc "bathe"; cognate to English wallow, welkin [1]; c.f. Volga), according to which the Volcae would have been the "river people" [2]. The Proto-Germanic sound change that altered Volcae into *walha (that is: *k→h) is known as Grimm's law, so that the contact between the Volcae and the early Germanic tribes would have occurred before that sound change, in the later 1st millennium BC.

The etymology of Volcae needs a brief, clear discussion, based on recent published material, not Internet websites. Could someone competent do this? --Wetman 21:47, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Most modern Celticists seem to agree that the tribal name Uolcae is related to Welsh gwalch "hawk" (and they compare the Gaulish personal name Catuuolcus to Welsh cadwalch "hero", literally "battle-hawk"), though some prefer to translate Gaulish *uolco- as "wolf" and, by semantic extension, "errant warrior" (see John Koch, "The Celtic Lands", in "Medieval Arthurian Literature: A Guide to Recent Research", edited by Norris J Lacy, Taylor & Francis, 1996, p. 267). For a full discussion of the etymology of Gaulish *uolco-, see Xavier Delamarre, "Dictionnaire de la langue gauloise" (Editions Errance, 2001, pp 274-6) and for examples of Gaulish *uolco- in various personal ancient Celtic names see Xavier Delamarre "Noms des personnes celtiques" (Editions Errance, 2007, p. 237). (CAG) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.90.3.190 (talk) 23:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Hawk" is dubious. It seems no Old Celtic forms corresponding to W. gwalch are attested, and Latin falco (to which the former is related) seems to be a (relatively late?) borrowing from a Germanic language. "Wolf" looks more credible - can we vouchsafe that the Volcae spoke a P-Celtic language? Maybe some Q-Celtic branches survived on the continent, since the original sound is most probably velar? (Obviously, "Volcae" could be an exonym given by a non-Celtic - Balto-Slavic? - tribe; though a Balto-Slavic exonym would perhaps be rendered as **Vilcae or **Ulcae). Any ideas/publications on this? MerkazMagen (talk) 07:34, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Both the etymologies asserted in the text are dubious. The Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru (the major Welsh dictionary) says that gwalch is a Germanic loanword too, just as Latin falco is (but from a different word). The Celtic word often held to be descended from the Indo-European word for "wolf" is usually reconstructed as *ulkʷos (not *wolkʷos!), but it's never attested in the meaning "wolf". In Old Irish, olc means "bad, evil", and in Lepontic Ulkos is a personal name. (Granted, "Wolf" is a more likely meaning for a personal name than "Evil" is, but you never know.) Lepontic is likely to actually be P-Celtic, but even in Gaulish (known to be P-Celtic) there are occasional inscriptions with /kʷ/ or /k/, so it seems that the kʷ>p change was areal and didn't reach all Gaulish-speaking areas. There is a Proto-Celtic word wolkʷos (given in Matasović's etymological dictionary), but it seems to have meant "wet weather" (Middle Irish folc "heavy rain" and Middle Welsh golchi "to cleanse, wash"). So maybe the Volcae were the tribe of bad weather? Can't put that in without a source, naturally, but neither the "hawk" theory nor the "wolf" theory actually matches up with known Celtic words. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:18, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The GPC is probably wrong here (note that there are many outdated, incorrect etymologies in the GPC). No reason to believe that the purely Celtic "hawk" etymology is wrong. Cagwinn (talk) 04:09, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Restored text[edit]

I have restored the sourced text that was deleted in favor of a misunderstanding of the relationship between "Volcae" and the subgroup "Volcae Tectosages", and restored "Volca Arecomici" to the article. Is the current arrangement clearer? --Wetman 21:39, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Footnotes 20 and 21[edit]

Footnotes 20 and 21 contradict each other.