Talk:Grandee

Peerage is not the same as Grande

Just a brief comment on the following sentence:

The rank was a rough equivalent of the Peerage of England or Peerage of France, and carried — increasingly as time went on — certain personal privileges, but the Grandees had no powers as a group.

I'm afraid this is incorrect. The direct equivalent to British, French and other peerages is the Portuguese Par do Reyno or Par do Reino (in the reformed spelling) or the Spanish Par del Reino. (Historically English nobility derive their titles from Continental European nobility and not the other way around!) The fact is, there is no British equivalent to Grande de Espana or Grande de Portugal. We simply have to live with it!

Regarding the second part of the sentence, there is no reason why the Grandes should have any 'powers as a group', since they are not necessarily peers, and viceversa. For instance the titles of Duke of Cadaval and Marquis of Fronteira had Grandeza de Portugal. This, regardless of the bearer of the title having already been granted pariato (peerage) or not.

Similarly, even the bourgeoisie who were granted titles in the nineteenth century could be granted peerage (just as today), but none of their ranks would be recognised as Grande, since grandeza (grandeur) was in fact exclusive to the chief bloodlines of the oldest historical families, and was traditionally associated with the antiquity of one or more titles. This is still the case today in Spain, for instance, where the current Duchess of Alba accumulates a number of other titles also with Grandeza de Espana, while the incumbent herself to my knowledge has not been elevated to pariato.

In a nutshell, strictly speaking one does not become Grande; one either is or is not, by virtue of bearing a historical title recognised or elevated at one point by the sovereign as to the rank of grandeza. As to the privileges of the grandes, those were and still are today mostly protocol, namely to do with precedence in official state ceremonies, like a coronation, royal weddings, etc.

Finally, the coronet featuring on the page is simply that of a Duke. There is no particular reason why that should be the case, as the grandeza could very well be that of any specific title from a Marquis to a Baron, etc., and for each rank the coronet would be different. The coronet merely signals the title rank (Duke, Marquis, Count, Viscount, Baron, etc.), nothing more; and does so regardless of its grandeza or antiquity, for which there is in fact no heraldic representation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.170.99.72 (talk) 22:06, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

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"the highest dignity of nobility in all of Europe"?

The third sentence in the lede asserts "'Grandee of Spain' is the highest dignity of nobility in all of Europe, due to its privileges having been greater than those of other similar European dignities, such as the peers of France or the peers of Great Britain." I'm afraid I don't find that argument persuasive. First, Spanish nobility does not potentially confer the right to rule in any position of state, unlike Britain, where 90 hereditary peers have seats in the House of Lords. (And until the early 20th century, British hereditary peers had much higher numbers in the Lords.) Second, at more than 400 who have that title, Spanish Grandees are much more numerous (and therefore less exclusive) than say, British dukes, who number a dozen, or marquesses, at 17, or even earls, with 80 members. And third, because Britain follows the rule of male-only primogeniture, whereby a title may only be inherited by one male child; Spain allows daughters to inherit grandeeship, further broadening it. Since the source for the original claim is to a book that is inaccessible to most, I move that the sentence be reworded or removed unless another reliable second-party source can be found to support it. 173.228.123.95 (talk) 12:14, 21 December 2019 (UTC)