Talk:Matthew C. Perry

"Modern Classic"

Some japanophile decided to declair some random manga a "modern classic" on this page. This is clearly just one person's POV. I changed it to simply state it was a manga. The "Rozen Maiden" page makes no reference to it being especially modern or classic... neither word appears in the entire article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.119.178.195 (talk) 14:11, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Imperial representatives

departed, mistakenly believing the agreement had been made with imperial representatives.
Who were they then? Jinian 10:28, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think they meant that they assumed they were imperial representatives because they assumed the Emperor had power. Perhaps the people Perry met with were actually Shogunal representatives? 4:02, 14 Dec 2006

Good Question

I would also like to know who they were.. I was also curious, who was more important for US/Japan relations, Matthew Perry or Townsend Harris ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Townsend_Harris )?

Einosuke Moriyama

I wonder if some mention could be made to this man, a sort of language prodigy, and one of the chief interpreters who met with Perry and helped work out the details of the treaty. I am making a stub about him at present, and writing a preliminary article on his teacher, Ranald MacDonald, a very important man in the history of America-Japanese relations, whose story has somewhat fallen through the cracks.

Sources I've seen indicate that Moriyama and the other interpreters trained by MacDonald played both sides to an extent, obvioiusly fascinated by foreign culture (considering they were samurai who had trained in Dutch and then English), they were able to subtly skew both sides' "offers" and threats to ensure the opening of Japan. Supposedly at least.--Lord Shitzu 21:52, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

Perry's final resting place?

Under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_cemeteries_in_Japan it is said that Perry's grave is in Japan. Either this page or the "Foreign Cemeteries" must have an error?

See section 5, Hakodate

Please check the following sentence again:

The Hakodate cemetery includes the grave of "a mariner" from the fleet of Commodore Matthew Calbraith Perry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.68.87.211 (talk) 03:39, August 26, 2007 (UTC)

"different ships"

Perry's early career saw him assigned to several different ships

Were these ships different, i.e. different types and sizes? otherwise, say "to several ships", because the word "several" can stand for itself on its own and does not need a crutch to lean on. Three ships made to the same plan are not three different ships, but merely three ships. To a man on one of those ships, another of the ships is another ship, not a different ship. Anthony Appleyard 06:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

"Various" might be better. How can a man be on several ships? Only one place at a time. Or, that he was assigned to a succession of various (or different) ships. Also, in those days, ships were a lot more "custom" than they are now i.e. different. They were not built to a blueprint but more to what the shipwrights knew by experience. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.196.147.82 (talk) 01:27, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

move to Matthew Calbraith Perry

I want to move the article to "Matthew Calbraith Perry" and have the disambiguation link as a redirect. Anyone disagree? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 18:05, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Not a bad idea. Perhaps "Matthew C. Perry" works also. IronDuke 00:00, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I performed the move since no one objected and its in line with the naming conventions. In the future please request a move using {{moveto}} and list the request at WP:RM. Savidan 04:14, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I think this move was incorrect. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) says that middle names should not be added just for disambiguation unless that is how the subject is commonly known. Using a "qualifier", such as "(naval officer)", is preferred. However "Matthew C. Perry" is commonly used so that would be sufficient. The full name "Matthew Calbraith Perry" appears to be rarely used. -Will Beback · † · 00:08, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Unless there's an object I'll move it to "Matthew C. Perry". ·:·Will Beback ·:· 20:27, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I hate to go to the bother of moving the article and fixing the redirects but I dislike "Matthew Calbraith Perry" as an article title even more so here it goes. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 09:53, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Please help repair this article against vandalism

Some obscene remarks need removal. I couldn't find the same in the editing section of the article.

Japanese Chin breed

From this article: "Among other mementos, Perry presented Queen Victoria with a breeding pair of Japanese Chin dogs, previously owned only by Japanese nobility."

From Japanese Chin: "Portuguese sailors introduced the breed to Europe in the 1600s by presenting some to Catherine of Braganza, Queen Consort to King Charles II of England."

One of these cannot be correct. I would assume that Perry should not get credit for the first Chin dogs outside Japan. --JohnRDaily 17:15, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Can't conceive that he'd even want it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.243.164.201 (talk) 04:02, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Perry's flag

User:Kungtzu's recent edit caused me to change "The original flag ..." to read "An original flag ...." In this context, a related article becomes relevant -- see Hayashi Akira:

• Kaei 7 (1854): Commodore Perry returned to Edo Bay to force Japanese agreement to the Treaty of Kanagawa; and the chief Japanese negotiator was Daigaku-no kami Hayashi Akira, who was known to the Americans as "Prince Commissioner Hayashi."<:ref>Sewall, John. (1905). The Logbook of the Captain's Clerk: Adventures in the China Seas, p.lxiv; Cullen, Louis. (2003). A History of Japan, 1582-1941: Internal and External Worlds, p. 178 n11.<:/ref>

"Immediately, on signing and exchanging copies of the treaty, Commodore Perry presented the first commissioner, Prince Hayashi, with an American flag stating that this gift was the highest expression of national courtesy and friendship he could offer ...."

-- from American eyewitness account of the event<:ref>Sewall, p. lxxiii; Hawks, Francis. (1856). Narrative of the Expedition of an American Squadron to the China Seas and Japan Performed in the Years 1852, 1853 and 1854 under the Command of Commodore M.C. Perry, United States Navy, Vol.I, pp. 377-380.<:/ref>

In my view, this relatively trivial point would be enhanced with an in-line citation from a source other than Sewall. --Tenmei (talk) 15:38, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

A personal entry, moved here

This rather odd paragraph appeared in the "A Diplomatic Note" section. I moved it here, knowing that it's somewhat inappropriate for the "Talk" section, but far more so for the entry itself. Don't blame me for its inclusion. I only saved it here, rather than simply deleting it, because it might have some minor historical significance. "I am the great-great-great-granddaughter of Commodore Matthew C. Perry. I am Andrea P Anderson, AKA Amitzahandreanias, daughter of Barbara Ann Perry; my mother is Yancy Perry's daughter. My grand father was Yancy Perry and his father was Edgar Virgil Perry; he married Uba Myrtle Dolittle. Edgar had 3 girls and my grandfather, Yancy Perry. Lilian, one of the daughters, never married and Betty Joe moved to California, and the other daughter married a man named Piper. I am trying to find the generation in between Edgar and the last Perry mentioned in Wikipedia. Can someone help me? I have an Uncle in West Virginia. His name is James Yancy Perry and he helped with this much info, only he is the last that would know here that I can contact and his sons do not know anything. Maybe one of the daughters of Edgar would have an idea or someone else that is mentioned here in Wikipedia." No contact information was given, but if someone was interested in contacting the poster, they could respond here or perhaps find the OP through WP's history of this entry. Bricology (talk) 07:44, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

You should be proud coming from such an important, historic lineage.

Very Americanized, Fair and Balanced Policy?

There is a lot more controversy to this topic than this article lets on. Most Japanese scholars will have you know that Perry isn't exactly loved in Japan; much rather he's seen as a bullying military man doing a diplomat's job. In any case, this argument needs to be presented in order for this article to really have a neutral POV. Some good English literature that goes into this would be George Feifer's Breaking Open Japan or Peter Booth Wiley's Yankees in the Land of the Gods. -- 76.22.24.110 (talk) 20:07, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

"bullying military man" Hmm, neutral POV - don't think so. Besides, he was a naval man.

Threatening retaliation by force if you don't get your way is intimidation, a form of bullying. And the navy is certainly a branch of the US military. This was a case of "might makes right", and pointing that out does not violate NPOV. Omitting it does. Stian (talk) 20:23, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

What I found most problematic about the lack of Japanese perceptions of Commodore Perry is that it suggest neutrality = western perspective. Controversy, conflict, and contradictions are not necessarily not-neutral, but rather present multiple possibilities. Likewise, neutrality does not equal authenticity or accuracy. So we can present the facts that there are multiple perceptions of Commodore Perry, and identify how and why the opening of Japan and the end of isolation had both positive and negative feelings associated with it, while still being as neutral and non-judgmental as possible. Gofigure8 em (talk) 19:39, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm late here, but I 100% agree. Seems the article may be better than perhaps when you all were looking at it, but it still comes across as very one-sided and almost presents the Japanese perspective as "wrong" in comparison to the American perspective. In fact, it might even be worth having a specific "American Perception" and "Japanese Perception" sections for discussing his legacy. 5.151.23.56 (talk) 16:37, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Did he open fire?

It is not clear from the article whether he actually started shooting or whether the threat was enough. How did he demonstrate the power of the guns? Lot 49a^talk 15:32, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Move

Why did we move the article from Matthew Calbraith Perry to Matthew Calbraith Perry? The subject is virtually never referred to by his full name, and I beleive the standard is to prefer using an disambiguation phrase ("Matthew C. Perry (admiral)") instead of an unusual name.   Will Beback  talk  05:55, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Replica Flag Location

As a tour supervisor aboard historic battleship Missouri I couldn't help to notice that the author mistakenly pointed out that a replica flag is displayed on the port side of the ship it is actually on the Starboard as this is where the surrender was signed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.93.209.116 (talk) 05:46, 6 October 2010 (UTC) 

Details, details - this is Wiki, we don't need no stinking details.

Cause of death

I have been extremely puzzled to find that in this article, Perry's death has been ascribed to cirrhosis due to alcoholism. This is an unsourced assertion that appears in no valid historical or biographical text, so far as I can determine. Not only do biographers concur that his death was a due to a combination of rheumatism and gout, but the official Congressional findings reached the same conclusion. Considering that alcoholism is not discussed as one of his failings in any contemporary accounts--and that other deaths of American public figures during the 19th century (such as President Polk) were in fact attributed to cirrhosis and alcoholism--I find this statement unsupportable. It is possible that there was a massive cover-up to hide his true cause of death, but as no such assertions have been made I can only consider this a case of misinformation.

I have changed the paragraph, and added citations.

--Jason Roberts (talk) 18:52, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I have no idea which position is correct but, based upon the above comments, I will remove the related 'Deaths from Cirrhosis' category as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.103.184.76 (talk) 21:13, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Perry's first visit, force or intimidation?

The book by <Mark Ravina>, written in Japan and supervised by Japanese scholars entitled <"The last samurai, The life and battles of Saigo Takamori"> has a fast paced account of Perry's first intrusion into Japanese life. The account does not state Perry fired on the shoreline installations or supplied white flags to be hoisted when the Japanese wanted the american naval bombardment to stop.Chap 2, p55 details how shogunate officials were astonised by the speed of Perry's command ship Susquehanna, its size and its weaponary.It reports the Susquehanna and Perry's second steamship the Mississippi steaming into Edo bay at 9 knots leaving the Shogunal navy scrambling in the wake. A shore-based counting of Perry's guns estimated 70 large calibre cannons <(appendix references. #24 notes to chap.2 "A man of exceptional fidelity">indicate there were 66 large calibre guns) compared to the Shogunates 100. However only 11 shogunate cannon were of equivalent calibre. Perry had 4 ships although not all as large as the susquehanna but in practise his supremacy in fire-power meant that he had outgunned Japan's supreme warlord and in effect the shogunate council were forced, by the mere intimated threat from Perry's ships, to receive President Millard Fillmore's treaty request. Contrary to the impression given Perry appears to have breached Japanese isolation without firing a shot.--217.43.139.229 (talk) 12:10, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Deja Vu

This article states: "A replica of Perry's US flag is on display on board the USS Missouri (BB-63) memorial in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. It is attached to the bulkhead just inboard of the Japanese surrender signing site on the port side of the ship." Then in the next paragraph, this article states: "A replica of this historic flag can be seen today on the Surrender Deck of the Battleship Missouri Memorial in Pearl Harbor. This replica is also placed in the same location on the bulkhead of the veranda deck where it had been initially mounted on the morning of September 2, 1945." Perhaps some wiki-ite can consolidate this vital information in one place.

Huh?

Under memorials, this article states: "The U.S. Navy's Perry-class frigates (purchased in the 1970s and 1980s) were named after Perry's brother, Commodore Oliver Hazard Perry." Wouldn't these be a memorial to his brother, Oliver Hazard, instead of Matthew Calbraith? Kind of like saying the Kennedy half dollar is a memorial to Bobbie.

Admiral Perry on "Homeward Bound" by Harry Turtledove

The ship in "Homeward Bound" by Harry Turtledove was the Admiral Peary not Perry. Admiral Robert Peary was the person who claimed to be first person at the geographic north pole. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miyashita (talk • contribs) 01:49, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

WP:Japan Assessment Commentary

The article as assessed C-class for both WP: Japan & WP: Military History, for lack of sufficient in-line citations. Boneyard90 (talk) 06:58, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

How about the 'why'?

The article talks about what Perry did. However, I don't see a succinct paragraph explaining why, or on whose authority Perry took this action with naval forces of the Commander-in-Chief. I'd like some explanation in the article. Was Japan or some of its people menacing passing ships going to China, Korea, Hong Kong, eastern Russia, etc.? Was there Japanese piracy? If not... if Japan was simply minding its own business, why did Perry or his superiors feel it necessary to poke their noses in and say, "C'mon you guys, open up here and let us in."? GBC (talk) 22:53, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

This is an excellent point. We Americans are given a version of this story that implies what Perry did was good and noble. I have read elsewhere that the motives of the US in doing this were perhaps not quite so noble. Can't remember where I read it; in fact I came here to see what I could find out about it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.196.147.82 (talk) 01:32, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Open Door Policy?

The lead paragraph states: "He played a leading role in the opening of Japan to the West with the Convention of Kanagawa in 1854 and is often associated with the Open Door Policy." I can't find anything in the article that supports his association with the Open Door Policy, and, after a bit of digging, it seems very dubious. The Open Door Policy article refers to issues and events related to China starting in about 1985; Perry is most closely associated with events in Japan in the 1850. Perhaps Perry's actions in Japan somehow got connected to the Open Door Policy four decades later, but neither this article, nor the Open Door Policy article, nor a quick Google search, provides any support for that. Rks13 (talk) 19:04, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Wrong Perry

Matthew Perry was not at the Battle of Lake Erie. His brother Oliver H Perry commanded and his younger brother Alexander was a midshipman on the Lawrence.107.9.200.231 (talk) 12:36, 10 September 2015 (UTC) William KoehleA Signal Victory by David Skaggs pg. 141.

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Alleged Authorization of Gunboat Diplomacy by Perry

Hello Friends. The section on the Perry Expedition contains the following sentence: "In 1852, Perry was assigned a mission by American President Millard Fillmore to force the opening of Japanese ports to American trade, through the use of gunboat diplomacy if necessary." This statement clearly indicates that Fillmore, and by implication Pierce after him, authorized Perry to use gunboat diplomacy, in other words, threats and force. It is my understanding that the US government expressly forbade Perry to use threaten or to use force against the Japanese except in self-defense. The citation given for the reference to gunboat diplomacy is to "J. W. Hall, Japan, p.207." This citation is incomplete, as it does not cite the date of publication or the edition, and there is no further bibliographic description elsewhere at the foot of the page. It is clear, however, that the editor in question meant to cite Hall's "Japan: From Prehistory to Modern Times," for Hall wrote no other book with a similar title. I have the 8th (1978) printing of the original 1968 edition, and although the book is still on sale online, it appears to be a 2002 reprint of the same original 1968 edition since the pagination of both (and other printings) are the same. Despite a thorough search, I can find no indication that the book was ever revised and therefore assume that the pagination of the above citation and my own copy are identical. At any rate, page 207 of Hall's book discusses events more than a century before Perry's visit and makes no mention of Perry's mission. No other reference to Perry in the index leads to any statement indicating that the US government authorized Perry to use threats or force. Just to be clear, historians do widely agree that Perry did use bluffs and even ignored Pierce's order to decrease his squadron of ships to avoid seeming to threaten. The point, however, and my understanding, is that in making his bluffs and trying to seem threatening, and thus in using gunboat diplomacy, Perry was acting ultra vires. For these reasons, in the absence of additional citations, I feel the sentence as it stands, implying as it does that Fillmore authorized Perry's use of gunboat diplomacy, should be revised to reflect that such actions were taken on Perry's own initiative. Many thanks for your attention. Gunnermanz (talk) 10:10, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Inconsistencies

"Last years" says "his remains were moved to the Island Cemetery in Newport, Rhode Island on March 21, 1866,[25] along with those of his daughter, Anna, who died in 1839.", yet "Personal life" says "Anna Rodgers Perry (c. 1838-1922)". Geni says Anna died 1839.[1]

"Last years" says "He died awaiting further orders on March 4, 1858", yet "Personal life" says "Commodore Perry was married to Jane Slidell Perry (1816–1864)"... so he was married to her for six years after he died? (Also, my first reading of that was that his wife Jane lived from 1816 to 1864, but that would have numerous inconsistencies with other information.)

Geni and Wikitree have a John Slidell Perry 1816-1817, but no Jane Slidell Perry (which would be odd, being exactly the same name as his wife). They list Susan as 1824-1825.

The "John" to "Jane" change and the changes giving long lives to the children who died in infancy look like subtle vandalism. The "married to" dates look like they were originally her birth and death dates; were updated to the current dates, perhaps in a mistaken effort to turn them into marriage dates.

All in all, the "Personal life" section looks like it needs serious work.

Caution: the Wikitree entry for Perry is at least partially sourced from this Wikipedia article.

Jordan Brown (talk) 22:46, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

A promotion to a grade which didn't exist when he died

The section "Return to the United States, 1855" reads: "He was also promoted to the grade of rear-admiral on the retired list (when his health began to fail) as a reward for his service in the Far East." with a reference to Sewall's book.

According to Rear admiral (United States), this title was created in 1862. As Perry died in 1858, he can't have received it. As I'm not used to the English Wikipedia, I prefer not to edit this myself but could someone correct this sentence? Mondes coloniaux (talk) 16:58, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

"...commanded ships in several wars, including the War of 1812"

Above the cut it says Perry commanded ships in the War of 1812, but the main article contradicts this (he served aboard ships in that war, but did not command any). 98.1.106.249 (talk) 21:34, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Template:Self-contradictory

In the Personal life section, it currently states that Perry was married to Jane Slidell Perry who died in 1864. The Last years section, states that "Perry's widow" had a monument placed on his grave in 1873, nine years after she apparently had passed away. Given the source, it seems that the Personal life section is in error. However, searches appear to show that both are in error, though the results contain questionable and unsatisfactory sources. Thus this section to hopefully resolve the matter. As an aside, there is a section above this one by Jordan Brown that partly goes over this issue. --Super Goku V (talk) 06:47, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Familial link to Douglas MacArthur

"The original flag was brought from the U.S. Naval Academy Museum to Japan for the Japan surrender ceremony and was displayed on that occasion at the request of Douglas MacArthur, who was a blood-relative of Perry." What source is there for this claim? I can't find anything on it, and there's no citations. Kuinor (talk) 09:40, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Original research @ Legacy

In the "Legacy" section, we read: "As portrayed by the U.S., both in writing and photographs, Perry was a man of authority and respect. He appeared as a well-mannered, sophisticated man. However, the Japanese portrayed him as a person with little respect."

But no reference in the article says this, certainly not the MIT visualizing cultures citation, which also only points out that only 'some portraits make him out to have demonic features.

cont.:

"These blue eyes are something associated with the West, although the blue is used in the whites of the eyes rather than the iris. Blue eyes are something as foreign to Japanese as the West itself. The prints are more than just unique artist interpretations—they speak to the collective view of Perry. He is depicted, both in prints and in writing, as stern, uptight, and unpleasant. These perceptions have carried over into the Japanese perception of Western civilization as a whole. The Japanese perceived Perry as so because of the control he was trying to obtain in Japan. It is probable that Perry represented the parts of Western Civilization that the Japanese did not like, or were afraid of."

This is not found in the MIT citation, the Columbia MIT link, or Kitahara 1986. The Columbia link and Kitahara do not even describe the physical appearance of Matthew Perry:

All links to cited references in this section:

https://visualizingcultures.mit.edu/black_ships_and_samurai_02/bss_visnav06.html

http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/timelines/japan_modern_timeline.htm

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1525/si.1986.9.1.53 (Kitahara 1986)

173.174.84.201 (talk) 10:29, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Birthplace

The "lineage" section indicates that he was born in South Kingstown, but the "memorials" section says that he was born in Newport. Online I am finding reputable websites that claim both of these possible birth places -- the Consulate General of Japan in New York says Newport, but Britannica.com says South Kingstown. Which is it? Rebeldevil (talk) 13:00, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Flag in Tokyo bay flown by Perry.

It was also on display at the World War 2 surrender on the USS Missouri per order of Admiral Halsey. 97.125.144.4 (talk) 18:25, 14 April 2024 (UTC)