Talk:Whip It (Devo song)/Archive 1

Prologue

I once heard that Carroll Burnett cancelled the band from her show after seeing the Whip It video. Source- "The History of Rock and Roll" documentary 1995. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.138.69.6 (talk • contribs) 09:15, May 7, 2007 (UTC)

The song

Mothersbaugh says in the source listed: "Nobody really knew it was actually about Jimmy Carter." Ronald Reagan wasn't elected until nearly a year after the song debuted on New Year's Eve 1979. The unsourced reference to Ronald Reagan appears to be merely POV-pushing or wishful thinking. -- 68.45.226.99 04:12, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

My parody

‘When a CD comes along | You must rip it!’ – Kaihsu (talk) 10:01, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Your parody is bad and you should feel bad.142.162.127.0 (talk) 06:12, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Moby Death Metal Version

I've heard there is a Death metal version of Whip It by Moby 188.100.30.199 (talk) 14:33, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Recent change

So the recent change was based off of xx, a featured article. I think that any kind of source, website, magazine, book, etc. can fit under the umbrella subsection of sources. As for other changes, please discuss them on the talk page, I think we're both tired of this back and forth with edit descriptions :) Famous Hobo (talk) 01:12, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

WP:CITEVAR is pretty clear about this. I was editing the article way before you, with a consistent style that you shouldn't change without prior consensus. Note that I systematically cleaned up after you to make sure the consistency was kept. Synthwave.94 (talk) 01:56, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

... and I cleaned up your edits. Constant improvement. --evrik ^(talk) 03:20, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

In media

And why is it not in Article? Like other pages?Telecine Guy (talk) 19:32, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Actually, this song is used in the movie Raising Helen and covered in the TV show Glee ("The Hurt Locker, Part One"). --TaupeGun (talk) 01:00, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

• The song was featured in the 2004 movie Raising Helen. The song was used in its original meaning of solving problems after single Helen, becomes the guardian for two of her late sister's children. Starred Kate Hudson as Helen Harris and John Corbett as Pastor Dan Parker.

The reason it shouldn't be on this page (and is often removed from others) is because we generally do not include indiscriminate lists of trivial uses in popular culture.

If you simply add a few that you know of, that is indiscriminate: It is neither a complete list of every use nor is it a selective list based on reasonable criteria. It's just the ones you (and other editors) happen to be aware of.

If you somehow manage to identify and source every use of the song in every movie, TV show, play, commercial (whether TV, radio, print, web, billboard, etc.), novel, other song, etc., the list would no longer be discriminate, but what would it tell us about the song? It would tell us it was used in one or more places. Heck, at that rate, we might as well list every time anyone anywhere performed it in concert, played the video or quoted the lyrics. Imagine the mind-numbing length of such a list for "Happy Birthday" or "God Save the Queen". Some of the lists would be hundreds or thousands of entries long and no one would ever read them. They would be pointless messes.

Instead, "In popular culture" sections should generally be limited to sourced discussions of the song's impact on popular culture, rather than indiscriminate lists of trivial uses.

As for cover versions, the consensus is that we don't include cover versions unless the version would be notable on its own. In most cases, that means versions which did not chart are excluded. Why? Imagine Foo Fighters recorded a song. In most instances, that song would not have an article. ("Most songs are not notable." WP:NSONG) We generally wouldn't have a section in the album's article about the song either. Why would an unrelated version of the song by someone else change that? - SummerPhD^v2.0 21:56, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

References

Motorik?

As far as I can tell, there is no motorik beat in the song. The drums follow a standard dance music pattern (kick, snare, kick, snare ...).--Ilovetopaint (talk) 02:56, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Eliminating songs from commercials

Thanks to the ongoing retail apocalypse phenomenon, we need to remove songs from commercials.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.6.131.152 (talk • contribs) 14:13, July 29, 2019 (UTC)

Interesting theory, but completely baseless. No. - SummerPhD^v2.0 23:53, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Nitrous Oxide Abuse

seriously... isnt that what this song is about? "Whip-its" are branded single use nitrous oxide cylinders for whipping cream. every head shop and porn shop since the 80's has sold tools known as "crackers" to rupture the cylinders in a semi controlled fashion. You literally "crack that whip"...

i find it hard to beleive devo inadvertently coined the terms since this form of huffing had been around since the early 1970's.

i also find it pretty hard to beleive none of this is referenced anywhere on the page... whether they inadvertently coined the terms or simply used them for their song. in either event, i would argue it had a significant impact on suburban american drug culture terminology. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.196.54.39 (talk) 03:29, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Your interpretation and guess about its impact is your interpretation and your guess. Without an independent reliable source for that interpretation, all we have is the lyricist's explanati0n and the band members laughing off the purported sexual connotations. - SummerPhD^v2.0 04:59, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Tempo

What? This song running at 120 beats per minute? No, it’s way faster than that! --101.173.92.216 (talk) 03:25, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

The following discussion has concluded. Please do not modify this section.

KROQ Top 106.7 Countdowns

@Synthwave.94:, the song and a Devo image are about to go on the front page. You can see it here: Template:Did you know/Preparation area 1. Maybe now you'll stop stripping out the sentence from the article? --evrik ^(talk) 12:35, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

• @Synthwave.94: Renewing this discussion, you keep reverting my edits, despite this discussion on the talk page. Rather than edit warring perhaps you can discuss your objection here. --evrik ^(talk) 02:32, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
• FYI Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RRArchive415#User:Synthwave.94_reported_by_User:Evrik_(Result:_) --evrik ^(talk) 05:11, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
  • For the record, Synthwave.94 removed the archive above. I asked that it be restored. --evrik ^(talk) 22:03, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

The following discussion has concluded. Please do not modify this section.

Citations

@Synthwave.94:, you had an issue with my using ProveIt to clean-up the citations? please explain. --evrik ^(talk) 04:53, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

• @Evrik: Using a semi-automatic tool such as ProveIt doesn't prevent you to respect Wikipedia rules and guidelines, including WP:CITEVAR (in other words to change the citation style used all over an article, which was perfectly consistent before you started using ProveIt). I'm therefore going to restore a previous version of the page. Synthwave.94 (talk) 22:24, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

• Except, if you read CITEVAR, you'll see that the edits fell under, "Generally considered helpful." So, you can cite CITEVAR, but the changes are within policy. Therefore your edits are simply continuing your edit warring. --evrik ^(talk) 02:40, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

• I am restoring the edits which were "Generally considered helpful," and the other edits as well. Given your edits noted above, its hard to believe you are not being a WP:Troll. --evrik ^(talk) 22:06, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Per WP:CITEVAR : "Editors should not attempt to change an article's established citation style merely on the grounds of personal preference, to make it match other articles, or without first seeking consensus for the change." As I'm the first editor to do so over this article (before you edited the article for the first time), you therefore must be the one to achieve a clear consensus to change the citation style of this article. Synthwave.94 (talk) 02:25, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

In other words, if you don't have an explicit consensus of several uninvolved editors, your changes will be reverted again. I'm afraid you won't reach a consensus anyway, as the same thing happened to me for Michael Jackson back in 2015, so I'd suggest you to stop here. Synthwave.94 (talk) 02:30, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, except where the edits are generally considered to be helpful, which you have not addressed. --evrik ^(talk) 02:55, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Your edits are unhelpful in this case. Synthwave.94 (talk) 03:52, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

That is your opinion. The edits are within policy, and standardize the citations. This does not include the fact that you stripped off the KROQ language again. --evrik ^(talk) 04:28, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

RfC about on specific fact on this song

On 20 June, 2020, this article was featured on DYK along with KROQ Top 106.7 Countdowns. The hook, "... that the inaugural Top 106.7 Countdown in 1980 was topped by the song "Whip It" by Devo (pictured)?" There has been a low grade edit war about this line of text (look here), "The song topped the influential KROQ Top 106.7."

My question: Should a cited fact, featured on the Main Page in DYK, with a photo of the band, be included in the article? --evrik ^(talk) 03:42, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

That addition seems fine. Synthwave.94's objection seems to be with the citation style you're converting the article to. Is that right? – Anne drew 16:24, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

@Anne drew Andrew and Drew: Yes, as a consensus is required to change the citation style of an article as per WP:CITEVAR ("Editors should not attempt to change an article's established citation style merely on the grounds of personal preference, to make it match other articles, or without first seeking consensus for the change.") Evrik also added badly-sourced/POV-pushing content, such as "The song topped the influential KROQ Top 106.7", which shouldn't appear in good or featured articles. Synthwave.94 (talk) 00:54, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Also, the fact that the info was featured on DYK along with KROQ Top 106.7 Countdowns (which is currenly mainly backed by primary sources) is certainly not a proof of notability as per WP:MISC and WP:IPC (as well as WP:TOPIC for its "influential" status). Note that KROQ Top 106.7 Countdowns was redirected to KROQ-FM back in 2006. Synthwave.94 (talk) 01:18, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

The bigger issue is the KROQ fact which was part of a DYK. The edits made to clean up the references are secondary. --evrik ^(talk) 04:32, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Synthwave.94, you're being a total WP:Dick looking at your edit history, you clearly WP:Own anything to do with 80s music, trying to impose your POV. Clearly the KROQ material should be there, and clearly the changes made to the references were in good faith. You are misusing process to try and WP:Bully the other editors into submission. Why don't you wipe off your greasy fingers, walk away from your computer and crawl back into whatever hole you live in. 71.178.128.198 (talk) 17:13, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Evrik never cared about WP:CITEVAR so far, which is pretty clear and explain why a consensus is required to change the citation style of a specific article. This has nothing to do with WP:Dick/WP:Own, considering I always respect Wikipedia rules and guidelines, that I assume good faith edits, and that I never bullied Evrik in any way. If you're a relative, then you need to avoid your meatpuppet behaviour and to learn how Wikipedia works, because it won't give any more weight to a non-consensual change. Synthwave.94 (talk) 02:13, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

First, I have cited the passage that says that cleaning up all the citations is not a violation of citevar. Second, your reverting of the well cited and relevant passage about KROQ is, at this point, nothing more than trolling. Finally, I remember SolarFlash bringing up that this is not the only music article that you have edit warred about. So, again, the edits are cited and relevant, and the citations are within policy. --evrik ^(talk) 03:13, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

• Synthwave.94, I noticed that you went and reverted the work of several editors this time. You claim that you're reverting unconstructive edits, but really, you continue your edit war. --evrik ^(talk) 05:57, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

• I will reformat the article again. --evrik ^(talk) 19:05, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

@Evrik: You started an RfC and but never achieved a consensus regarding your changes, which means you started the edit war in the first place (see WP:BRD and WP:CITEVAR). Meatpuppet behaviour is not permitted either, as several IP adresses did the same kind of edits you performed so far. Synthwave.94 (talk) 02:30, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

• Which set of edits are you referring to? The ones where the dates were adjusted into one format and conformed with the MOS? Or the cited fact that appeared on the front page as part of a DYK? With the image no less. --evrik ^(talk) 03:35, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

The word "influential" cannot be used here, because it's a clear violation of WP:SYNTH. The Los Angeles magazine piece does not mention "Whip It" at all, or even Devo topping the countdown list, so it's a synthesis of multiple sources to insert the word. Sources A + B are added together to create a new idea C. That kind of writing is great for books and magazines but it can't stand up to scrutiny on Wikipedia. Binksternet (talk) 04:55, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

• The source uses the word influential on page 8. It refers to the radio station. However, I agree to drop the word influential. My new sentence: The song topped the first KROQ Top 106.7 countdown. Can we now move on? --evrik ^(talk) 14:54, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Is the KROQ Countdown significant?

Okay, a new question is on the table: is the KROQ Countdown so important that we need to mention it? For me, the answer would be found in a strong WP:SECONDARY source mentioning the Countdown and "Whip It" or how the Countdown affected Devo's career. I looked around and found nothing like that. If your search mojo is better than mine, please bring a secondary source describing the KROQ Countdown as significant to the song or to Devo. Binksternet (talk) 19:11, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

• This is the same question that started this whole discussion. On the question of a source that mentions the Countdown and "Whip It" I offer this source:

"Top 80 Songs of 1980". KROQ. radio.com. Archived from the original on 2020-06-07. Retrieved 2020-06-07. Top 80 Songs of 1980|Whip it good! 1980 was the dawn of a brave new world in rock 'n' roll. The year was dominated by two pioneering bands both from the great state of Ohio: Devo and the Pretenders.

Now, is this a primary source or a secondary source? I would say that as it was written more than thirty years after the event it is secondary. As to the relationship between Devo and KROQ:

Wagoner, Richard (2020-05-27). "Radio: KROQ has a problem, and here's how to fix it". Daily News. ... . Rick Carroll arrived to program the station and tweaked the format … still focusing on new music, but with a top-40 approach. Essentially, Carroll saw the station not as "alternative," but as the place to hear new music and new bands first — no matter the genre. Artists included The Ramones, The Police, The Cars, Duran Duran, Blondie, Sparks, The Runaways, Devo ...

"Devo At KROQ In Pasadena". Jed the Fish. 2019-01-15. The reason in 1978 I was so excited about working at KROQ, is that it was the home of Devo.

Alvarez, Jimmy (2018-09-06). "CLASSIC KROQ GETS A SECOND WIND WITH ROQ OF THE '80S". OC Weekly. [Jed the Fish] stood up for bands like Devo, Talking Heads, and Boingo to get them on the air.

"KROQ Top 106.7 Songs". Frank's Page. 1980.

Is that good enough? --evrik ^(talk) 20:43, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

KROQ was certainly an early adopter of Devo, which is good info for the Devo and KROQ articles. The KROQ connection started a few years earlier than Freedom of Choice and "Whip It". In mid-1978, KROQ invited its listeners to cover Devo songs for a tribute album, and they collected 400 tapes of quirky cover songs for more than a year, choosing the best ones with the help of Devo judging the entries, publishing the collection as Devotees in 1979.

By the time that "Whip It" came out and hit widely everywhere, Greater Los Angeles was not the only location that knew about Devo. In Evie Nagy's book Devo's Freedom of Choice, she quotes bandmember Gerald Casale who says that "Whip It" was programmed extensively by Kal Rudman to be played on radio stations in the US Southeast, which led to airplay in NYC, resulting in the song blowing up. Casale says that within four or five days of radio play in NYC, the band had to completely stop and rebook their tour for much larger audiences. Casale says pretty much the same thing to Consequence of Sound, identifying Rudman as the guy who broke the single. So Casale places the emphasis on the east coast, not Los Angeles. Spin magazine writes that "Whip It" was first played in NYC on powerhouse WBLS by DJ Frankie Crocker. Billboard All I did to find these was to search Google for "Whip It" and "radio". None of the search results mention KROQ.

I don't think we can shoehorn KROQ into this story. The literature doesn't support it. Binksternet (talk) 23:14, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Since we have established the relationship, would you agree that this is an accurate statement: In December 1980, the song topped the first KROQ Top 106.7 countdown.

• "KROQ Top 106.7 Songs". Frank's Page. 1980.
• "Top 80 Songs of 1980". KROQ. radio.com. Archived from the original on 2020-06-07. Retrieved 2020-06-07. --evrik ^(talk) 05:16, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

I never doubted the KROQ listing. The KROQ page is a better reference than Frank's page. I still don't think the fact is appropriate here. Binksternet (talk) 06:09, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Binksternet, Why? It seems relevant. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:06, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

I would be looking for somebody in the band or in the music business relating the KROQ listing to the song or the band's career, saying the listing was significant for some reason. When Casale tells the story of the song, he doesn't mention Los Angeles radio, which makes me think Los Angeles radio had shrunk in importance to Devo by the time "Whip It" came out. I would like to see someone say that topping the KROQ listing showed that the L.A. fan base was still strong, or whatever. Binksternet (talk) 04:50, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, Piotrus.--evrik ^(talk) 17:41, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

• @Binksternet: Here is a citation that links KROQ and Devo in 1980. It also mentions Whip It and Southern California. This clearly shows that the LA fan base, the shows in Santa Monica, and the support of the radio station were important.

Amter, Charlie (2020-05-20). "'Freedom Of Choice' at 40: Devo's Gerald Casale Discusses Their Landmark Album". Variety. Retrieved 2020-06-01. KROQ was always a big booster for us and they were definitely promoting us and made a huge difference for us in Southern California. We had to add lots of shows when "Whip It" took off. Playing those three shows at the Santa Monic Civic was for sure a result of that song taking off.

• My new sentence: The song topped the first KROQ Top 106.7 countdown.
• An alternate: Reflecting the songs popularity in the LA Market, the song topped the first KROQ Top 106.7 countdown.

--evrik ^(talk) 17:41, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Given the Variety source, I would add some text in the vein of larger venues, following the "larger venues" sentence already in the article. Here's what I suggest:

Within a week, "Whip It" had become so popular that Devo was forced to temporarily stop its tour to book larger venues because the concerts were selling out too quickly. When Devo returned home, they played a series of large concerts at the Santa Monica Civic Auditorium in late August 1980, attended by Hollywood celebrities and other L.A. musicians. Casale later said that the rising popularity of 'Whip It" helped to fill such large venues, along with the continued "big booster" promotion of Devo by KROQ radio in Southern California. KROQ's listeners chose "Whip It" as their number 1 favorite song in the year-end list KROQ Top 80 of 1980.

Another thing to consider putting into the article is the fact that Frankie Crocker was the DJ who "broke" the song on WBLS in NYC. adds that Black radio in Detroit helped to break the song before it was popular on rock stations.. Binksternet (talk) 19:09, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Fine by me. Why don't you go ahead and make the add? I don't want to violate the terms of the 3rr debate. --evrik ^(talk) 00:21, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

 Done. I did not see a smooth way to include the thing about Detroit, but I got NYC and KROQ in there. Binksternet (talk) 01:31, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

References