Talk:Camino de Santiago/Archive 1

Hello

who knows anything about the Saint-James-Way in England or Great-Britain? 139.18.15.218 14:25, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Saint James?! Is that the correct translation? Santiago comes from Saint Iago (Saint Yago); "Yago", the same as "Xacobeo" (from the name of the path in gallego), is definitely more related to "Jacob" than to "James"!! Please explain... Marcelino 83.146.49.20 14:15, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes,it is Saint James, since the disciple 'Jacobus' (i.e. the one whose grave is supposedly in Santiago) has always been translated as James in the English bible translation. Don't ask me why, I don't know either, took me a while to figure it out myself, but this is just the case, and has been so since about forever --Arnoutf 21:53, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

It might be the correct translation, but it is never translated. This should remain in the original language. Damiancorrigan 15:48, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry but I don't understand what you mean here by stating it is never translated. Do you mean it should be St James way or Camino di Santiago? In English Way of St James is the usual phrase; also outside wikipedia. (I guess you don't mean we should use the ancient hebrew name for St James.) Arnoutf 18:49, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

To clarify, if necessary: the saint believed to be buried at Compostela is in fact St. James the Greater. His name in Latin is Iacobus (there was no letter J in Latin, so the letter I is used instead). His "official" name in Spanish is Santiago, which is a derivant of Sant-Yago and is equivalent to the Spanish names Diego and Jaime. Jacob is the Anglicised Hebrew form of the same name. The name of this pilgrimage is "el Camino de Santiago" in Spanish and "o Camiño de Santiago" in Galego. I personally would prefer the former, since it is probably the most common internationally. In particular, this would be helpful since there are literally dozens of saints with the name James, although "Santiago" is almost always reserved for this one particular saint. That and the fact that it's not really all that hard to pronounce, is it? Massimo377 20:09, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Pre-Christian history

I don't question in principle the idea that some of the Camino/Way might have pre-Christian origins. However, I find the article's discussion of the Way's pre-Christian history terribly vague and poorly documented. There is much historically untenable kookiness about alleged "paganism" among New Age devotees of this and other religious sites, and I would like to ensure that this is not what we're looking at here.

I have walked 1000 miles of the route. The Cathedral authorities at Compostela are quite willing to admit that the pious legend of James's burial at Compostela is exactly that: a pious legend. They also provide a great deal of interesting material on the archaeology of the site. I would like to see a similarly scientific approach in this article.

I agree...the pre-christian section is pure hokum. Unless someone is prepared to reference this section it should be deleted. While there is plentiful evidence of Celtic-era pilgrimage to specific local shrines and healing springs, there is no evidence for long distance pilgrimage to "the end of the world" Benvenuto 23:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Netherlands

Occasionally, there are reports that some Dutch prisoner (and guard) have made the way as an alternative to prison, following an ancient custom. --Error 04:16, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Never heard of that, and I'm Dutch and hiked the way; perhaps the dutch society of saint james knows (http://www.santiago.nl)--Arnoutf 21:50, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

It is from Belgium, not Netherland.--Rocastelo 19:17, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

If you have more knowledge on this (and preferably have a reference) feel free to add it. It is a nice story Arnoutf 21:16, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I met a Dutch social worker and a kid from a boys home doing the walk last year, I don't think its an ancient custom, more like a modern character building exercise Benvenuto 00:03, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Vía de la Plata

Did the Vía de la Plata go to Asturica Augusta from Italica or from Emerita Augusta? --Error 00:53, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

suggest to remove/or add section on modern ways

Currently the article contains a section on 'the way of st James in England'. I would suggest either to remove this section or to allow more 'modern' effort to recreate pilgrimspaths. Notably in the Netherlands the 'pilgrimspath' runs from Amsterdam to Maastricht (from where you can hike on to Le Puy). And the famous French FFRP has printed several guides with modern routes, (as far as I know) from Namur (Belgium) through Vezelay and Le Puy to the Navarra section of the path. So in short: I would suggest either expanding this section to encompass all modern routes. Or delete as the Enlish only entry seems biased and incomplete (action for now would be to add a level higher header 'Modern ways of St James' under which I would be perectly happy to only find the Enlish subheader for now. --Arnoutf 22:00, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

As there was no objections for 2 weeks I have starting to shift the structure Arnoutf 21:38, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Mind the pilgrim hat

"Mind the pilgrim hat" in the graphic caption appears to be an attempt at humor, and may not be good tone. I deleted it and someone brought it back. Brainhell 22:41, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

It is a way to express that Saint James is represented at the same time as a holy warrior and as a pilgrim. Maybe a picture as just a pilgrim would be better suited to this article. If you can express it better or have a a pilgrim picture, change it. --Error 02:12, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

See my suggestion as I put it up after replacement by cathedral view Arnoutf 09:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

The language is better, but I'd prefer a picture of St James as a pilgrim. --Error 00:01, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

It is a nice illustration how different roles of this Saint mingle, but I agree that if we want to make that specific point it may be better to place that in a new legends section Arnoutf 17:44, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Shifted it to history section; fits better there anyway Arnoutf 19:13, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup

I think the first effort in cleaning up this article should be to change the second level headers under chapter 3 and the 3rd level header in Ch4, into normally bolded sections. That would clean up the table of contents. Furhtermore I agree that some text editing may improve the article Arnoutf 09:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

No I don't think this is a good idea at all. They really should stay as headings beacuase that is their function; this is a principle of good mark-up. -- reinthal 08:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Then at least there should be much more text around each them becuase the balance header+text, which is sometimes only one sentence in relation to table of contents is lost in the current set-up Arnoutf 22:32, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

For now I bolded them, can always change back later as more text is added. By slight restructuring of introduction contents table shifted up Arnoutf 19:12, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Have moved all route descriptions to their own page. As this will obviously expand greatly in the future it is about time to do so. reinthal 02:22, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Good idea, solves a lot! Arnoutf 18:51, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Iberia or spain and portugal

Although I agree not everyone may not what Iberia is, I prefer that term over the summation Spain and Portugal (I agree we should link to Iberian Peninsula, to explain) After all part of the reason for an encyclopeida is to allow people to learn new things and phrasing everything in (baciscally incorrect) simple phrases is not a good thing. Therefore I would argue to change the Spain and Portugal heading back to Iberian Arnoutf 22:37, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Fisterra or Finisterre?

Using Finisterre, the unofficial name might confuse or hide information to users who want to keep looking for more pages (City Councils close to the Cape on the Way always use "Fisterra"). I suggest using the official one.

This article needs a lot of work...

Hello: I have read this article for first time and I am surprised of the imprecissions and errors it contains. The way of Saint James is a very popular subject, it is walked by thousands of pepople each year, and, thereby, it has generated a host of cheap literaturwe books and webpages. Everybody "knows" the "real meaning" of it. But in an enciclopedy we cannot just write the first thing that comes to our mind, and I think it is important to be well-documented, because, although there is a (wide) space for the legend in the Camino, the historical facts are amazing and deserve to be transmited and differenced from fast-food speculations. In the article a strange unreferenced section about an hypotetical pre-Christian (Celt?????) use of the way, and no reference for the much more widely known although discussed theory of the bishop Prisciliano is done. The section about the first pilgrimages is extremely short and without quoting the pilgrimage of Alfonso II, among other important historical facts. No emphasys is made about the cultural importance of the way, the spread of the Romanesque, the construction of Gothic cathedrals...Now I cannot start the revision, but in three weeks I will start working in it. I would apreciate opinions about these points.--Garcilaso 09:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like good suggestions. I am no expert on the historic topics of the way, but reading the section s involved I can easily see that the text is very immature; and potentially lacking or misrepresenting facts. Perhaps the legends of Charlemagne should be mentioned (who seemed to be guided to Spain by St James to follow the Milky Way to his grave). Perhaps also something more about the (histroical) Vatican / Templar support of the Way (possibly in relation to reconquistada goals of the Pope) might give some interesting insights. After all compared to Rome and Jerusalem ; Santiago is a fairly obscure pilgrimage goal to be allowed to fogive all prior sins; and being the third most holy destination of Christianity in the Middle Ages. But as I say, I am not an expert on the Way's history; my suggestions are hearsay only. But if you (Garcilaso) or anyone would take the effort to implement well documented histroy of the way, I think that would really be a huge improvement. So please do! Arnoutf 12:56, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Garcilaso all I can say is... go for it! You don't need to ask! But please don't edit out information that is unverified, only edit out info that is unverifiable or incorrect. So add away! The rest of us can correct English errors if that's what you're concerned about. -- reinthal 03:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I also am fascinated to find out about this pilgrimmage. I am familiar with the pilgrimmage to Rome, and pilgrimmages to Islamic sites, as well as assorted holy sites in the Americas. I would be interested in learning more about it, even about the pre-Christian pilgrimmages. Filll, October 5, 2006.

Carandell

This prologue by Luis Carandell mentions that the Priscillian theory is from Miguel de Unamuno and attributes to Martin Luther a discouragement of the pilgrimage because "it's not known whether what lies there is a dead dog or a dead horse". With proper attribution it would be interesting. --Error 00:02, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

What does this sentence mean?

"The symbol of St. James pilgrims is the scallop shell, usually sourced at Finisterre, from which they used to drink water."--Filll 21:54, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Happier now? --Error 00:03, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Well I am still not sure. I am going to type the original sentence, which still makes no sense, to be honest, at least in English, and then a guess at some words that make sense in English but might be incorrect:

The symbol of St. James pilgrims is the scallop shell from which they used to drink water. The shell was usually sourced at Finisterre

A guess might be: The symbol of St. James pilgrims is the scallop shell. Pilgrims used the scallop shells they carried to drink water from a spring on Cape Finisterre.

I cannot really guess very well unless I know what you mean, to be honest. As it stands now, it just is not quite English. And unfortunately, there are a lot of other examples in the article like this. --Filll 03:26, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I had the same problem as you; I could not understand the sentence. I am think spliiting it into to (addition of full stop) is a good idea. The second sentence about Finisterre may need some clairfiaction, your (Filll) sentence is easily understood, but I am not sure this is what was originally meant, and if so, it probably needs a reference as this may be one of the many stroies on the way. Arnoutf 07:34, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

The symbol is the scallop shell. Pilgrims drink water with a scallop [I am not sure of this, they are often depicted with a pumpkin as a water container]. The Galician coast is rich in seafood. There are scallops in the Galician coast, including Finisterre. The pilgrims got scallop shells from Finisterre [I am not sure of this. Did they not use scallops in the way to Santiago? Only in the way back?].

You can rephrase it now.

--Error 01:20, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok I tried to make it clearer--Filll 02:44, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Googling around, I don't find mention of any practical use of the shell. It was just a token showing that the pilgrim had reached Santiago. I have deleted your phrase since there are already mentions of the shell as a symbol. --Error 03:20, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Not sure I understand the move

of the material about the scallop. Some of it I understand, but some of it I am less sure about. I have to think about this some more--Filll 02:40, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Site with information

http://www.caminoguides.com/history.html --Filll 17:14, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Cluny

is Cluny important enough to include with its own note? There are litterally dozens and dozens of routes. This particular way deserves to be singled out?--Filll 13:00, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it is. But I am pretty sure this hitoric variant would be a valuable addition to the Way of St. James (route descriptions) article. Arnoutf 20:42, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Is it? If you include Cluny, what about the thousands of other towns on hundreds and hundreds of routes? I just am wondering how one decides which are the important towns to mention, and important routes, and which can be left to the references and links to other sites.--Filll 21:51, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh I realizethere was more to my comment than I put in writing (lot assumptions that need to be chekced...). As the importance of Cluny is that it connects Le Puy and Vezelay I more or less assumed it was on the current GR65 (which also links Le Puy and Vezelay). So in that aspect this specific variant may actually be an interesting one. But I agree that there are too many variant to even think of listing them all. Anyway even if that GR65 link holds it still should not be here but on the other page Arnoutf 21:56, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Way of St. James and "Frere Jacques"

I have had several people arguing that the song Frere Jacques refers to all pilgrims on the way of St. James. Is this true do you think? Are there published claims that this is true?--Filll

I never heard this rumour. The theory is treated but only in little detail compared to some other theories of origin (without source, the ref is a footnote) in the wiki article of the song Frère Jacques. My personal opinion: Probably not, in principle do not add to the mainstream article; although a remark under trivia or speculation (with a link to the Wiki article) could go... Arnoutf 21:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I know about the article here. I wrote that. We have no sources. And I am being bullied by people who insist this is true but can provide no references. I was flexible enough to let it stand (trying to avoid arguments) at the start. This might not have been a good idea. You can see all this on the talk page. I thought that I could find some references, or they would give me some. They have not come up with any after weeks and weeks. I have searched on the web to no avail. I have asked many reference librarians. I have contacted the Vatican library and the University of Santiago de Compostella reference librarians and the Library of Congress. I am trying to get at least one references for this crazy theory since these two Polish people have been so insistent that this is a very common theory in Europe that is commonly believed by many people. And I am asking in places where people might have heard of this theory. Like this talk page.--Filll 08:38, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I didn't look into that article enough to see you were one of the main editors. Well I never heard of the theory; and the songtext does not seem to reflect to the way of St JAcques at all (Personally i had the unfounded belief the song referred to the archfather Jacob (=Jacques in French); but I won't bother you with that theory. I would follow my course scientific writing in agreeing that a common belief by many people means: I am too lazy to look for a good reference. Just kick it out, if they want it back make it their responsibility to come up with a published (ie non-internet) reference for their claim. Good luck Arnoutf 12:53, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I have written the theory out more clearly to hopefully get more responses. I am going to let it stay for another couple of months. I do not think with the {{Fact}} tag and it being clearly described that many people will be seriously mislead. I agree that they are too lazy to find a reference, or perhaps unable. One of them in particular has been quite surly and belligerent that I asked him for a reference. His last response was to say "look on the way of st. james page at Shirely Maclaine's book and all the other books on pilgrimmages referenced in that article. You will find your reference in one of those books" without giving a specific book, page number author, extracted passage etc. He has claimed that the article was "unencyclopedic" because we had references there and it was not scholarly to put references on your work or ask for references. He even marked it unencyclopedic until we talked him out of it. He claims to be a philosophy professor in Poland but I have my doubts. I am just about ready to ask for an outside person to come in and make a judgement, but I think it will resolve itself without that.--Filll 14:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Well good luck. Wikipolicy is to use references (so that can easily be countered). Not scholarly... They are kidding. When reviewing papers submitted to scientific journals, I often demand from authors to put in more references (ie asking for refs). When guiding students I tell them there are 3 acceptable ways to come to a conclusion - (1) An undeniable logical reasoning; (2) A clear reference; (3) Own empirical data (not allowed for wiki as original research). Once again; good luck with it. Arnoutf 18:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I feel I am bending over backwards to be flexible and they are just contemptuous of my insistence on references. I as well am used to scholarly citation of references, so this entire attitude just is mystifying and disappointing.--Filll 19:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Botafumeiro

After some investigation on the web, I have found accounts that the Botafumeiro in the Santiago de Compostella Cathedral is made of "silver brass", or silver-plated brass. I have also seen some pictures where the Botafumeiro is clearly silver colored, and others were it is clearly golden colored (from reflections?). For example, a picture purported to be of the Botafumeiro in the library is found at:

• http://www.galiciaguide.com/pics/botafumeiro.jpg

Also, I have found some accounts that the Botafumeiro weighs 58 Kg, and others that it weighs 80 Kg. Given that a physics study of the Botafumeiro quotes 80Kg, I think that this might be more accurate. I have also seen varying quotes of the height of the Botafumeiro, from 1.6 m to 2 meters or so. Another question: When is the Botafumeiro employed? Some accounts claim it is used only on special occasions, but some foreign language sites imply that it swings daily at 12 noon. What is the truth? Does anyone know the connection of the Road Rally of the same name and the restaurant of the same name to the censer? --Filll 18:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know (at least during the tourist season) the botafumeiro is used daily in the noon mass (but not in the others such as the pilgrims mass specially for the arriving pilgrims earlier in the morning - if you want to attend a mass this is the nicer as it is less busy and much more intimate). As far as I know it burns about 10kg of incense when swung, but I heard it weighes empty about 40kg (but that is only hearsay). It is brought in on poles by four priests so anything below 100 kg is possible (IMHO). Arnoutf 20:10, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Trash pile

When I look at the outside links, it just looks like a pile of crap to me. I have wondered about making another article which can just be a collection of assorted garbage links. How many photo albums in foreign languages do we need for example? I mean, really.--Filll 19:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually I would say we do not need a single photo album in whatever language. Arnoutf 20:11, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

And of course this is also the case for painting made by an editor, they should not be listed. Arnoutf 10:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow that is pretty funny. I appreciate that many people want to somehow use Wikipedia to promote themselves or their small business etc, but this is not the way to do it. I am sure it is possible, but it has to be done in a far more clever and subtle way. Like if he puts a painting in the public domain and lets people use it on Wikipedia, and puts a caption under it with his name and maybe an article under his name with an outside link. Maybe. But then he would have to do a good job on the article about himself to avoid getting it deleted. This can be done, but a person has to be far more sophisticated than a dumb link.--Filll 14:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

He posted this reference everywhere where he found inspiration for his paintings, and got an indefinite block from wiki admins in return today. Pretty fast registering jan 3, being blocked indef jan 5th.... So, no this is not the way to do it ;-) Arnoutf 14:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Names in other languages

I am not sure whether the translations of the way in all European languages should be mentioned. It is often a translation of Way of St Jamer along the lines of Camino (local name for James) or ()Local name for James') Path or Way. This seems to me to be getting close to being a dictionary type of translation list. Not what wikipedia is meant for. I suggest we delete this list; perhaps with the exception of French; Spanish and Portugese as these translations are essential and most common. Arnoutf 12:47, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I would agree. This article seems to be like flypaper for nonsense.--Filll 13:58, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps Galician and Basque names might be retained, since those are local names of that area. I am not sure what format to retain them in. Perhaps a table is appropriate.--Filll 14:02, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree about keeping the Galician and Basque, also because they don't look like any of the others. Arnoutf 15:03, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Move of guides; travellogues etc

I suggest to move the vast majority of the links to wikitravel [1]. Wikipedia is not a travel guide so these guides should have no place here. Wikitravel however IS a travel guide; so that information is probably best suited there. Arnoutf 15:08, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

That is a brilliant idea. We can provide a link for those interested, and clean up that mess. Good thinking !--Filll 15:12, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

How about using this template Camino de Santiago/Archive 1 travel guide from Wikivoyage I found on the London article ;-) Arnoutf 15:27, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Excellent. I am going to clean out the books as well. This has to be done a couple of times a year at least I think or else the links and references just turn into a crap pile. For some reason, this subject just draws them out like flies.--Filll 15:51, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Guys you've done a great job on that, sorry if my MoS'ing got in the way and edit conflicted you.--Alf ^melmac 15:57, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Well I still do not know what to do with

• Susan Alcorn, Camino Chronicle: Walking to Santiago

Which really seems like little more than advertising, but she has written several books about travels and went out of her way to write her own biography here and also a page even for Camino Chronicle, which I am not sure how it avoided getting deleted. So I left it. I tried to divide the books into real literary works by real writers and then just pure diary writing and guides by yahoos who walked on the camino.--Filll 16:01, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

It appears that WikiTravel does not want our left over links either. So I still feel bad in a way, although they certainly are not encyclopedic. I am asking on Pilgrim Wiki if we can have a page of pilgrimmage-related links there. Maybe they will allow it. For time being, I have decided as a sort of project to save the deleted links to Talk:Way of St. James/Links to see how many we get. I tried to put most of the deleted links from the last couple of years there. It needs some pruning etc obviously. When you see them all listed, it is clear that there are quite a few. As much as I would like to accommodate everyone, if we did that the article would soon deteriorate into a nightmare. And this is an encyclopedia after all.--Filll 14:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I notice, as sure as day follows night, more spam links appear on this site. I really wonder about making a separate page for people to shove crap links on. There seems to be an endless supply of garbage links for this article.--Filll 01:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

with over 20,000 people walking it every year it is bound to attract commercial interest and many hobbyists putting up their travellogue. Perhaps we should create a page List of crappy way of St. James links ;-) Arnoutf 08:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

PreChristian route

After having this page on my watch list for a couple of months, I realize that we have improved it quite a bit, but I am still struck that we need to improve its scholarly aspects. In particular, I am still quite interested in its preChristian origins. I will keep an eye out to see what I can find. --Filll 14:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Look at how big the crap pile has become

These are the culled commercial etc links from the last little while: Talk:Way of St. James/Links--Filll 20:31, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Lead photo

Recently the photo of the scallop was swapped with that of the cathedral. I think that is not a good idea. This article is not about Santiago the Compostella, or even the Cathedral of that town; but about the pilgrimage towards that town. In other words it is about the road, not the goal. The scallop, not the cathedral, is the symbol of the road; hence it should be used, not the cathedral. Please do not change back again. Arnoutf 09:47, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Holy Year or Jubilee of Compostela

There is no article about the Holy Year or Jubilee of Compostela like this: Heiliges Compostelanisches Jahr --139.18.15.12 19:24, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

You are free to create it. That is the beauty of Wiki. Arnoutf 20:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

THE WAY IN OTHER LANGUAGES

After discussion above we decided only to list the way in languages of areas the way (or an important version) crosses. Ie we included Spanish, Basque, Gallician, French (and for important variations) Portugese. As Wiki is not a dictionary we do not add the name in Dutch, Danish, Finnish, Russian, Chinese so ALSO NOT IN GERMAN. (I put this shouting as there is a tendency to add Jakobsweg (German)) for some obscure reason, while none of the other languages are ever used. Arnoutf 17:16, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

The significance of the scallop symbol

The scallop shell depicted on the page is upside down!! Many people make this mistake, because of the Shell Oil company logo. However, the correct shell symbol for the Way of St. James is with the flat side on top and the round side on the bottom. In Spain a blus and yellow stylized version is sideways. Someone should place pictures of St. James waymarks here or pictures of stamps to clarify. Also, the text written here about the origins of the shell symbol seem to contradict the information on the page about the Codex Calixtinus, which many people take to be the definitive Way of St. James source. Jane 13:59, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

You're completely right; please upload a better image if you have one. Also the mystic pre christian speculation about the shell should be removed or provided with decent references. Arnoutf 14:08, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I replaced the shell with a map, since that seems more appropriate anyway and was already out on Wiki commons in other languages. For this section on the significance of the shell I will need to do a bit more research. Now I'm curious. Jane 07:07, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Actual remains of St. James

Is it reasonable to claim that the Santiago Compestella contains the actual remains of St. James and this is a fact? Or is it more accurately described as a legend? Or even myth? I will not get in an edit war over this.--Filll 15:00, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Santiago de Compostella, claims this. However these remains appeared suddenly in the 11th century (or some other early medieval date), while James was buried there in the 1st century (so the actual grave has been lost for about 1,000 yrs). The grave was found at the time the Pope thought it would be a good moment to disrupt the ongoing warring between the Christian Northern Spanish kingdoms and make them focus on the Mores. The pilgrimage (crossing frontlines all the time) would make war between the Christian kingdoms almost impossible, so (very cynically put) the moment of the rediscovery of James' remains was very fortuitous for the Roman Catholic church. In other words, I would put it as legend, rather than fact; unless you have a good (non religious biased) source. Arnoutf 18:59, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

That is what I thought. So I propose to revert the last change accordingly.--Filll 19:05, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree and did so (and notified the editor who changed it politely why I did so on his/her talk page). Arnoutf 19:07, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Indulgences and Purgatory

I question two unsourced statements in this article that seem to result from a flawed understanding of indulgences:

It was considered one of three pilgrimages on which all sins could be forgiven; the others are the Via Francigena to Rome and the pilgrimage to Jerusalem.

In medieval catholicism, the "Compostela" counted as an act of indulgence. The bearer was entitled to a reduction by half of their time in purgatory, or, if the Compostela was obtained in a Holy Year, a full indulgence.

The first statement seems to refer to a plenary indulgence, but a plenary indulgence does not forgive any sins, it only removes all of the temporal punishments of a sin that has already been forgiven.

The second statement talks about "time in purgatory", but a partial indulgence does not refer to any amount of time in purgatory, but to temporal punishments here on earth. These may or may not be correlated in some way to "time in purgatory", but that is mere theological speculation.

I think that the editors who wrote these statements probably meant:

It was considered one of three pilgrimages on which a plenary indulgence could be earned; the others are the Via Francigena to Rome and the pilgrimage to Jerusalem.

In medieval catholicism, the "Compostela" counted as an act of indulgence. The bearer was entitled to a partial indulgence, if the Compostela was obtained in a Holy Year, a plenary indulgence.

But even so, a source should be cited. Rwflammang 17:12, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I had a smile on my face when I read your comment, which is very insightful. If you go into the history of the crusades and the pilgrimages to the holy land, Rome and Santiago, you will find that your question was never answered. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Certainly most Santiago pilgrims through the centuries felt that they were going for a plenary indulgence. This is one of the basic problems with the indulgence system that Martin Luther objected to so strongly after his own pilgrimage to Rome. He felt that the Catholic church was corrupting itself by making false promises to the common people. I have a little book that spells it all out and makes it quite clear that the official church policy was contradictory for about 250-300 years. Actually, they are still trying to straighten this out, but since most pilgrims are tourists nowadays anyway, it's sort of a moot point. The quotes you are seeking are to be found in various canon writings in France and Italy. Pretty dull stuff. I think it is important to mention what the pilgrims and crusaders were led to believe, namely that they would be granted 100% forgiveness for all sins. They really needed to believe this in order to take valuable months off from farming duties or whatever else they did at the time. Jane 13:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

So. Do you have a source? Rwflammang 19:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

this, this, and this. Arnoutf 19:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Cool links! Thanks Arnout! I was thinking of adding Canterbury to the list of 3 Catholic pilgrimages, since that was a big pilgrimage place from the 12th century on, as well being a Unesco site today for many of the same reasons as the Way of St. James. Jane 11:13, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

There is probable a lot more in the printed press, but I had no time to find more (or build it into the article). At least we can start replacing the (justified) fact tags with these .

The 3 catholic pilgrimages are the three only places where a full indulgence could be gotten; i.e. of which city the archbishop (or pope) could forgive all sins in a single go. I am pretty sure that was never the case for Canterbury, that would be a reason for me not to add it. Arnoutf 11:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Extra links

I have continued to compile an approximate list of our removed references at Talk:Way of St. James/Links. Please look at the list and realize that we cannot accommodate all those who wish to include commercial links etc in this article. This is not a list of links and commercial advertisements, but an encyclopedia.--Filll 15:40, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I culled out the links a bit with what accumulated in the last couple of months I think. This just builds up like crud.--Filll 21:00, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Are there criteria for a work's inclusion here? Neither Louise Collis nor her book have articles and neither is mentioned in the article on Margery Kempe, the woman whose book is the basis for that of Collis. The volume by Staley might be a better choice if Kempe is to be included at all. JimCubb 18:25, 9 October 2007 (UTC) I am removing the Louise Collis reference. The work seems to be a commentary on the work of Margery Kempe and, as stated above, is not sufficiently notable to have its own article. JimCubb 06:31, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

We try to keep both additional reading and links manageable (ie not more than about 10). This is not easy as there at tens of thousands of books. In general, for books and links both it should be very notable and in English. Arnoutf 09:43, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

We regularly cull out the lists of books and external links that people suggest. I have captured about half of what has been suggested and placed it in Talk:Way of St. James/Links. From examination of this list, it should be clear that:

• We cannot acccommodate all links and books that people want in the article
• Most of the links and books are of minimal interest or relevance
• If the links and books and other ephemera were not regularly trimmed and managed, the article would soon be buried in a sea of cruft

We try to be reasonable about this and not too aggressive, and err on the side of generosity, but as you can see, this still leaves many people unhappy, and also leaves many questionable links and books in the article itself.--Filll 12:20, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

It would be appropriate to have at least one book on the list that has a description of the pilgrimage either from the perspective of a pilgrim or an observer during the Middle Ages. It seems to me from a cursory reading that the Kempe book does that although the pilgrimage is a very small part of her book. An historical novel that is set in the town in the Middle Ages might be useful to someone.

I find it hard to imagine that an interested person would read a book on the pilgrimage written by an American actress, a Brazilian Crowley-influenced mystic or a British humourist. It is somewhat easier to imagine an interested person slogging through the Michener book in order to read the single chapter that is relevant.

However, as there are two editors who have appointed themselves as the sole, bold arbiters of what is appropriate for this section of this article, the works cited above are the only literary works that are available to a user of WP, a person who comes to gain information. JimCubb 04:20, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Your books seem relevant, and following your reasoning to the point, I would have no problem with their addition. I agree Coelho is a rather disappointing mystic romantisation of the Way, however it is very well-known and for many (especially Brasilian) pilgrim a motivation to walk the way. For that reason alone it is notable.

The reason why I (and I think Filll as well) tend to be harsh is that many pilgrims provide links to what is basically "My hike of the Camino" website, or small circulation print. These sources often tend to be (I am overstating slightly but really not that much) badly written, poorly illustrated (holiday quality photos), are ofen not in English, tend to be incomplete personal accounts with little to no interest for anyone but close relatives of the author. I guess you agree these publications should be kept out at all cost.

But even in the published literature there are by now hundreds of books, which cannot all be listed. If you have a book that you think should be listed, providing motivation on this talk page will likely prevent quick deletion; at least by me. I hope with this explanation you understand my fairly harsh and bold actions in the link and further reading section. It is not because I want to claim ownership, but merely to prevent this article being (literally) swamped in irrelevant references, links and further readings. Arnoutf 09:47, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. If anyone can come up with a more reasonable rationale for how to decide which books and links to include and describe it here on the talk page, then we will probably follow it. We are not some sort of self-appointed guardians here. I personally do not care, except that I want there to be some order in what we include, since we obviously cannot include everything. Look at the material I have removed in the link above. Do you think we can or should have all of that in the article? If we did that, how easy would it be to find anything of interest? I am not an expert in the literature describing the pilgrimmage and any assistance would be welcomed. My only criteria that I have applied is notability, which is admittedly hard to determine and maybe inadequate in this case.--Filll 13:21, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I setup some of the initial categories for this article, and added some of the entries, including those for Camino Chronicle by Susan Alcorn, my wife. Those have since been deleted. This is not about that - just letting you know upfront. I do consider myself somewhat of an expert on current usage of the Way of St. James, and on the popular literature about it, as I have maintained a non commercial webpage about the Camino since 2003, as a way of giving back for what I got when walking it in 2001. I try to read every English language book that is discussed on any internet Camino forum. I have about forty books that have risen to the level of forum or listserv attention, and that includes some fiction ones, and some loosely related ones.

I can give you some criteria for at least determining a book has been read by a large number of people. Please stay with me for a moment. First we have the Amazon Sales Rank. If that number is to be used for anything, it should be observed daily for a week, as it is reset every week, and becomes more accurate as the week goes on. A little number in sales rank means lots of readers. The second factor to examine is book published date. If the Amazon Sales Rank is divided by years in print, you get an average sales rank per year. For example, at this moment Paul Coehlo's book has a sales rank of about 12000, and has been in print since 1995 - 12 years. That gives an average yearly sales rank of 1000. Shirley Maclaine's book has a rank of about 30000, and has been in print since 2001 - 7 years, so an average yearly rank per year of about 4000. Tim Moore's book, which I like, but is a travelogue, has a rank of about 200,000 and has been in print for 2 years, so an average yearly rank of 100,000. Gitliz and Davidson's Pilgrimage Road to Santiago is most popular Camino history book out and has a sales rank of 20000, and was published in 2000, so roughly a yearly sales rank of 3000. If you include anything with a yearly sales rank of under 10,000 you will have a very short list and each item will be a book of importance to the Way of St. James, just because of the attention it brings to the trail.

I think links with high text content should be included but don't know how an editor without Camino knowledge could judge. Maybe count clicks to 1st content page and count ads shown enroute. If more than 2 clicks or 2 ads, eliminate.

One nit - the List of Confraternities should say something like List of Associations, as Confraternity is a specific Catholic term. There has been discussion in AmericanPilgrims.com about becoming a Confraternity, but it has not happened.

This article badly needs an editor with academic knowledge in the subject. Important content is being removed without malice, but just lack of knowledge of the material. For example, Louise Collis's book on Margery Kempe. Why would one remove a reference to one of the very few English language accounts of someone who walked the Way of Saint James during medieval times? There is an account soon to be republished, of a woman who walked the Way in 1920. This will be a valuable reference to someone interested in the more recent history of the Way of St. James, but the current editors I'm sure would delete it if entered.

76.202.63.253 (talk) 20:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree, a few more links are possible; and an editor with academic knowledge of the way would be welcome to do so. Although I walked it (from the Netherlands passing the Way of Tours) I do not think I qualify.

However, I would like to present the reason why we are so 'bold' in removing the links/further reading. At one time there were literary dozens and dozens of references. Many to published books (of which there are many hundreds in dozens of languages). Afterwards several dozens were added. I think in total over 200! such references were removed. I am convinced this staggering number includes several valuable sources that would benefit the article, but I also think that in this specific case removing a few relevant references is less of a problem (mnd you a problem it is), compared to leaving up all the additions creating an ureadable lengthy list (made in good faith, no doubt). Arnoutf (talk) 22:52, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I would concur. I am no expert in this area. However, as I have noted above, unless we keep this list trimmed down, it soon grows beyond all reason. Take a look at the links I have removed over the last few months alone, here. If an expert was able to maintain this article and patrol it, great. Otherwise, we make do for now. I am sure we have removed useful material, and kept in material that should not be there, at least by someone's definition. That is unfortunately the tradeoff that has to be made when we do not have someone who is an academic specializing in the Way babysitting this article. --Filll (talk) 23:12, 12 February 2008 (UTC)