Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Rotherham Five

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The Rotherham Five was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE

A band that was formed and disbanded in the same year over 20 years ago??? Only google hit on search "Rotherham Five" + band is not related to this subject. Delete -- Graham ☺ | Talk 16:43, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

  • Delete: Seems like another elaborate joke. It may well be a "fake" old band to hype an upcoming project for all I know, but it looks exactly like a nothing. Dig that photo, too. Geogre 17:44, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • "Keep": as the author I can guarantee the authenticity of the band. Their lack of commercial success should by no means negate their place in history nor their value. I would argue that the artlcle should remain as a testament that our society is not as media reliant as it appears. Just because something does not appear in the media does not mean it did not happen or is not relevant. This band is encylopedic as a document of one of the non-runners, an alternative story where for once success is not the imperative factor. Furthermore the remix work done on this band is unique and extremely interesting for an studio professionals. For anyone wanting to hear the results I will happily e-mail them an mp3 as proof. Ronson 19:08, 27 Oct 2004 (GMT)
    • I recommend that you login if you want to vote, since anonymous votes are might be considered invalid Sietse 18:34, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Ronson, the reason we delete without CD's or such is that without artifacts, the article is unverifiable, and all articles have to be verifiable. Further, the article is not NPOV. Further, there are no references or citations to support the allegation that an unrecorded and unsigned band changed the world even a little. Geogre 04:01, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. In my opinion, lack of commercial success (or some other kind of commonly recognized notability) is a good reason for not putting such an article in an encyclopedia. No offense to the author though, the article is well written in my opinion. I just think that it does not belong to Wikipedia. -- Sietse 18:34, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. allmusic.com hasn't heard of them, and 3 google hits for "The Rotherham Five", only one of which might refer to this band. The article is somewhat entertaining, but the subject doesn't seem notable. Niteowlneils 19:08, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. NeoJustin 23:22 Oct 27, 2004 (UTC)
  • It's pretty fascinating. Most of the names of zero hits whatsoever, a couple have irrelevant hits. But it very well might have happened. But so what? Of what possible importance is it? Once the remix is out, the band, assuming it really did exist, might be notable -- if the remix itself is. Until then, delete. --jpgordon{gab} 00:13, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. As absurd as this may sound I lived in Rotheram in the late seventies with my aunt and uncle and each year for about three years running I attended the jazz festival there. Although the memories are fading I do remember a band by this name. Admittedly I remember them more for the fact that they were one of the few forward thinking groups of local musicians I had come across than for their actual musical merit, but I can confirm they exixted at some point. They may hold little historical merit in the wider academic field that my fellow users populate however in the small but humble realm of Northern English Jazz music of this period they are of great importance, merely by merit of their existence. I would be extremely interested in hearing these new reworkings. I am even having a rummage to see if I can dig up any photos of them at the festival. I was keen photographic as well as jazz enthusiast in my youth. I I find any I would be more than happy to provide them as proof of the fact that contrary to poular belief Rotheram is not a complete cultural waste land.
  • Keep. I was a member of the band Kingdom of the Franks and therefore had the opportunity of working with producer Ronson Hermitage. Although I never met The Rotherham Five personally, Ronson used to talk of them in quite high regard and I once saw them play back in 1983 at a small festival in Selby, North Yorkshire which had been organised to promote local upcoming talent. Therefore I can not only vouch for the existence of the band but for their stunning musical prowess and visionary approach to Jazz. I am really looking forward to hearing these new reworkings and hope it might create a little interest in the much maligned North Yorkshire jazz scene. User:Stuntman 16.35 28 October 2004]
  • I think that it is suspicious that all three keep-votes are written by an unregistered user (one anon, two users with no contributions), who all claim that they were involved in the North Yorkshire jazz scene in 1983, use the same layout (e.g. no sig) and have a very similar writing style. This is either a very strange coincidence or the last two votes are sockpuppets. I suggest that these three votes are counted as one (unless one of the keep-voters can prove I'm mistaken of course). Sietse 12:30, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. I am one of the guys who remixed The Five. I received a phone call from Ronson last night who explained the situation here. I'd like it stay for two main reasons. Firstly I agree with Ronsons argument that as a culture we have fallen into this strange mindset that things are not relevant unless they have been noted by the media or can be found on Google. I think this undervalues the worth of a single human beings existence. Are we really so obsessed by celebrity. For me the beauty of Wikipedia (and it is a wonderful thing) is that it allows individuals to document their own personal histories (and as we can see above, the histories of even just a few people. People like The Rotherham Five are Encyclopedic in that they existed and have a story. The point of an encyclopedia is surely the documentation of actaul events in this curious existence that we all find ourselves in. Secondly, the remix we did is extremely relevent to the history of the music industry because it is using techniques that are constantly used on people such as Kylie and Robbie Williams. These "stars" do make mistakes and people like myself do fix them. They are nowhere near the class of performance as say the Beatles or Led Zeppelin were. The relevence of our remix is this: It doesn't matter how bad you were (apologies to followers of the North Yorkshire Jazz scene!) we can make good sounding music out of anything, and one million hits on Google does not make Robbie Williams a good singer, people like me do!!! I am trying to upload a ogg file of one of our remixes but am having difficulties, it won't recognize it as a Media file only as an Image file. I'd like to provide an artifact of this band so if anyone can help me, please do!!!! otherwise I can e-mail it to any doubters. Ian Sherwin 1:36 28 Oct 2004 isherwin@hotmail.com
    • Note: User:Ian Sherwin is not a registered user on wikipedia and has no user contributions. In response to your point Ian, can I just say that the purpose of wikipedia is not to credit every single human being with an article, just the notable ones. As yet, I have seen no evidence of notability either through the available media or in anything you or any of the other users arguing for this article to be kept, have said. So this band use the same techniques as Kylie Minogue and Robbie Williams... so what? I bet millions of bands out there do, and that doesn't make them notable at all. I've just run a google search on a local band that I follow who are (imo) not notable enough for an encyclopedia entry, but still get 25 google hits. -- Graham ☺ | Talk 12:55, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. How can a band that didn't last a year have any significance? Gazpacho 12:47, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Note I am a registered user, I just entered my name incorrectly Ian Sherwin should read IanSherwin. So apologies to Graham for my oversight. No contributions as yet, would I become a more Valid Human Being if I were to enter a short article on Tapeworm?? You seem to have missunderstood my argument, so allow me to simplify it. The Rotherham Five did not use those techniques (they weren't available back then) We used them to take something rubbish and turn it into something good. It is a statement on the manufactured nature of the current pop industry. "So What" is not a particulary articulate argument, a neo-facist could make the same comment about the holocaust, many might agree but it would still not make him right!!! User:IanSherwin 2:27 28 Oct 2004
    • This is not about being "Valid Human Beings", it's about being notable enough for an encyclopedia. something which you have still been unable to provide evidence for. Apology for oversight noted btw. -- Graham ☺ | Talk 13:38, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • I just got an email from Ivor Hillman who fronts a band called 'My Pierrot Dolls' (Who also should be in wikipedia), he pointed me at this website, thought Id be interested. I used to run the The Charter Arms in Rotherham, remeber them well, Derrick used to ferry them all in in his BT van! They existed allright, and had a following, I'm sure they were around longer than a year though. I'd like to think they deserve a little aknoledgement, Hope they can find a space here. My Pierrot Dolls actually lasted 4 years and have recently released some new material.
    • Guys, guys, you're missing the point. Was this band studio-recorded? Did it have wide distribution? Was it something other than a local band? Gazpacho 19:33, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • Gazpacho, No offense intended, but did you actually read the article? The band were studio-recorded at Westpoint Studios, London. User:Ronson 12.35 29th Oct 2004

Ok, Lets set the record straight once and for all. I am Keith Tapithwaite, although I haven't used that name since 1985. I am now known by my stage name Keith More. I wanna tell you all that Ronson Hermitage is nothing but a big fraud. Yes, The Rotherham Five existed, Yes, we were the greatest thing to ever come out of the Yorkshire Jazz scene. Yes, we had a recording session in London with Ronson but all that stuff about my PCP addicition and the reasons for our demise are totally false. Ronson Hermitage totally ripped us off and by his snide interventions broke up my band. The so-called studio deal was nothing but a sham. he promised us free studio time but then when we returned to pick up our gear, we were landed with a £3000 bill and told to pay if we wanted our rig back. Funnily enough the studio was co-owned by one Ronson Hermitage. starting to make sense yet!! As if that wasn't enough, I later heard one of our recordings being played on Radio Two, accredited to Martha and the Muffins. Basically, this man was a total crook and is obviously back up to his old tricks by getting these two mugs to "remix" MY MUSIC!!! I want this Article taken down immediately. Thankfully, all of the Five have gotten our lives back together, Cornelius Thorpe is now a respected Doctor working on Speech Therapy in the States, Susan Ferre is one of the worlds most respected organ players and if you want something about me here then my work with Asia amongst others is much more notable!!!

  • Delete. It looks to me like some suspicious stuff is going on is this thread. Indrian 20:27, Oct 31, 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. Someone is clearly having way too much fun with this topic. Chuck 22:04, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like other '/delete' pages is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.

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