User talk:Tabib/Nagorno-Karabakh

What's wrong in this version of the article

• The version of the article states that "as of 1989 Karabakh had a population of 192,000". This is not correct. Last official demographic data for this region have been received as a result of the Soviet population census in 1979. At that time the general population of Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Region was 162,200 persons from which 123,100 were Armenians (75,9 %), and 37,300 - Azeri (22,9 %).Rovoam 10:26, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I’m surprised that you are not aware (or maybe you are?..) of simple historical fact that the last population census in Nagorno-Karabakh was conducted in January 12, 1989 as part of the All-(Soviet)Union census. I could bring you dozens of Azeri and Western sources, but here’s an excerpt from newspaper “Azat Artsakh”, published by Karabakh Armenians themselves:

According to the results of the 1979 census Karabakh had 162.2 inhabitants, of them 123.1 thousand Armenians, 37.3 thousand Azerbaijanis and 1.8 thousand of other nationalities. The sixth census in Karabakh was carried out during the Karabakh movement in 1989. At that time Karabakh had a population of 189.1 thousand: 145.5 thousand Armenians and 40.7 thousand Azerbaijanis. The number of people of other nationalities totaled 2.9 thousand.

(Source: “Census to be conducted”, Azat Artsakh newspaper, January 26, 2005) It’s never late to learn something new…--Tabib 09:01, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• It is historically incorrect to state that Nagorno-Karabakh was a part of Aghbania, or Caucasian Albania. These are the reasons:
  • Karabakh name was invented in XIV century by Turks. At that time Albania did not exist.
  • Neutral sources testify, that Armenians prevailed in region during more than millennia (see main talk page for details).
  • The territory of this region was part of Armenia, as you can clearly see on the old maps, presented on the main talk page for the article.Rovoam 10:26, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Rovoam again employs his tactics of intentionally complicating the things in order to confuse people and derail the discussion. Contrary to Rovoam’s argument:

• Naming of Karabakh as “Karabakh” in medieval period and Artsakh’s Albanian belonging are two different things, two separate historical issues. By saying that “Nagorno-Karabakh comprised one of the historical parts of Aghbania, or Caucasian Albania.”, (initial page sentence deleted by Rovoam), we simply state that the territory of what today is known as Nagorno-Karabakh area was part of Caucasus Albania. It’s very simple, correct and unambiguous logical sentence.
• I have numerously stated in a clearest language I could and bringing authoritative historical and contemporary sources that Artsakh was a historical region of Caucasus Albania and was conquered at times by the ancient Armenian kingdom. I also explained that except for antique authors who lived somewhat during the I BC. and I AD, i.e. Strabo, Plinius, Ptolemeus etc. no sources show that Armenians ever controlled Artsakh. Armenian kingdom had conquered Artsakh from Albanians approx. in II-I cc. BC, but as ancient Armenian historian Moses of Chorene testifies, by I BC Albanians returned Artsakh and it became part of Albania again. Here are the specific posts on Albanian belonging of Artsakh in the main discussion page (by the time of posting this message): Artsakh province of Caucasian Albania (includes my initial arguments and a proposed paragraph on Artsakh’s history), Maps Comment (comments on the maps posted by Rovoam proving contrary to his allegations that Artsakh was not a part of Armenian homeland), Albanian province of Artsakh and Armenian claims (quoted authoritative, even including ancient and contemporary Armenian (!), sources testifying that Artsakh was part of Caucasus Albania); Devil’s advocacy and the irrefutable facts (responding to counterarguments), On subjugation of Albanian church to Armenian etc. Unfortunately, Rovoam simply chooses to ignore these authoritative sources.
• I have given my comments on maps posted by Rovoam in a rather detailed and exhaustive fashion in which I addressed both the historical Armenian homeland questions and the issue of “Greater Armenia” kingdom. It’s unfortunate that Rovoam continues to use these evidences for his POV purposes, whereas these maps (esp. medieval ones) actually disprove Rovoam’s allegations. Please, see relevant page discussion. --Tabib 09:01, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• The Caucasian Albania has nothing to do with modern conflict between Armenians living in Karabakh and Azeri people. Rovoam 10:26, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Right, and that is exactly what I've been trying to tell you throughout the whole discussion (surprisingly, now you bring this argument to me). So, the sentence you deleted "Nagorno-Karabakh comprised one of the historical parts of Aghbania, or Caucasian Albania. In ancient times the region was called Artsakh." is simply a statement of historical fact, and has nothing to do with current politics.--Tabib 09:01, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• According to history, the Christianity was accepted in Albania in 4th century, not in 5th century, as it is incorrectly stated in this version of the article. Christianity in Albania was introduced even before by Gregory the Illuminator and his grandson Grigoris, who became the first bishop of Albania (during time of Albanian king Urnair). This historical fact can be easily verified. See Moses Kalankaytuk "History of Alwania" for details.Rovoam 10:26, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Certainly Christian missionaries appeared in Albania and in Caucasus in general long before V c. The first Christian missionary to come to Albania was St Eliseus yet back in I c. AD. But I am tired to repeat over and over again that Christianity became official religion in Albania in 488 AD after church meeting in Aluan (a settlement once situated in present-day Karabakh). This is 5th century and not 4th. probably we proceed from different starting points here: I proceed from the time Christianity became official religion, rovoam proceeds from the time when Albanian king Urnayr was baptized by St. Gregory. So, the initial sentense was: "In the 5th century Christianity become the official religion in Aghbania." While this is perfectly correct sentence, I am prepared to accept editions to it which would reflect that Christianity had an influence in Albania even before that. So, what about such a sentence: "Christianity first came to Aghbania with the mission of St. Eliseus yet in I c. AD. Christianity was widely accepted in the Vth century after St. Gregory the Illuminator converted and baptized Albanian king Urnayr. In 488 AD, following a church assembly near Aluan (situated in present-day Karabakh area), Christianity become the official religion in Aghbania." Hope it's ok now?--Tabib 09:01, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• The statement that Karabakh’s de-facto belonging to Azerbaijan was recognized in 1919 by the Allies has no meaning at all. The Allies could not act as UN or similar international organization.Rovoam 10:26, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Actually nobody said that Allies acted as "Un or similar organization", this is your misinterpretation. The proposed paragraph stated:

"Despite the fact that the Ottomans were defeated in the course of World War I, Karabakh’s de-facto belonging to Azerbaijan was recognized in 1919 by the Allies, who recognized Khosrov-bey Sultanov appointed by the Azerbaijan government as general-governor of Karabakh. Whereas Azerbaijan commended this decision as a recognition of its rights to the territory, the Armenian side criticized it reasoning that this decision was adopted because of the Allies' economic interests in the oilfields nearby Azerbaijan's capital, Baku."

As I've said earlier, Karabakh’s de-facto belonging to Azerbaijan was recognized yet in 1919 by the Allies and on April 3, 1919 the commander-in-chief of the Allied troops in the Caucasus general Thompson officially recognized the authority of the Karabakh general-governor Khosrov-bey Sultanov appointed by Azerbaijan. This is an indisputable historical fact, which should be clearly stated in the final page content--Tabib 09:01, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)