Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Olympic Games/archive1

Olympic games

(Uncontested -- July 8)

Self-nomination. My (personal) objective is to have this article featured on the main page the day the 2004 Olympics start in Athens, 13 August. There should be plenty of time to resolve objections. I think the current article gives a sufficiently detailed overview of the Olympic Games, and I've already provided links to other articles for more details (some of them do not exist yet). There's still several "dead" links, which I hope to fill with at least stubs in the next few days/weeks. Jeronimo 20:33, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• Object for now. Sorry to get so nitpicky, but this will get a lot of readers. All the best, [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 23:19, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  • The table at the bottom of medal winners needs formatting; the number of golds runs into the year.
  • No mention of the "amateur" requirement, or famous controversies over it, or why it was dropped
  • No mention of criticisms of the Olympics (i.e. cost, doping, etc.)
  • The section on "Summer Olympics" and the stuff about the founding of the Winter Olympics should be folded into a section called "Modern Olympic History", and the Summer Olympics should then have another page describing them (what sports go on, etc.)
  • Inconsistent capitalization, esp. of "De Coubertin". Which is correct, de or De? You learn something every day
    • No please, get nitpicky, we need that to get good articles. I will look into your objections. A few remarks: 1) I included a section on amateurism, but it disappeared, probably because I was edited the page concurrently myself. It should be back right now. 2) I'll look at the capitalisation, but if I'm not mistaken, it is normal use in France to capitalise "De" when the name is used without a given name ("De Coubertin"), but use lower case for the full name ("Pierre de Coubertin"). (This is also the case in my native language, Dutch). If this is incorrect, or if I should not use the French method, let me know. 3) As for your fourth point, I'm not sure what to do. I could make the Summer/Winter sections subsections of a new "Modern Olympic History" section. Would that accomplish what you envision? Jeronimo 06:34, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
      • Well, people I know generally use lower-case 'd' in all cases (so, "John de Smith" and "de Smith, John"). Maybe this is a British thing? There's some recent discussion of this in the MoS... James F. (talk) 10:40, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Yes, that would be a start. Currently, the section on "Winter Olympics" is almost all history, except for one paragraph beginning with "The sports conducted...", while the "Summer Olympics" section is almost all history as well. These two sections could be merged into a new section, called "modern olympic history". Then, perhaps, general details about the actual summer and winter games could go into one smaller section, perhaps called "summer and winter olympics", which would compare the two and draw in some details from the relevant articles.

Also, the table does need formatting--unfortunately, I don't know table markup. Also, there probably should be a section called "Criticisms and scandal"--no article on the Olympics would be complete without those East German swimmers. Brrr. [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 13:07, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• I think I've addressed all your above points now. 1) I slightly reformatted the table. 2) I've added a section on doping and one on criticism on the IOC; there was already a part on the costs in the modern history section. 3) I have refactored the organisation of sections on the modern history. – Let me know if you think I have addressed your concerns sufficiently, or if they still require work. Jeronimo 10:01, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• Support. A much better article now. Oh, and good use of images. That said, I hope that Revival of the Olympic Games gets made into an article by the time this gets on the front page. [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 17:18, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
• Object. 1. The article uses "Baron Pierre de Coubertin" and "Pierre de Coubertin"—both of these should be replaced with "Pierre, Baron de Coubertin." The article also uses just "Baron de Coubertin" without the definite article - this does not sound correct, for it is like suggesting "Contrary to what Baron of Coubertin had hoped"; obviously, in such cases, the sentence sounds better with "the Baron" rather than "Baron." Also, the article uses "De Coubertin" in the middle of sentences. To summarise my reccomendations on the naming: for the first reference and as the caption for an image, use "Pierre, Baron de Coubertin," with the capital B. For all subsequent references, use either "Pierre, Baron de Coubertin" or "de Coubertin" (with the small D, except of course at the beginning of sentences). One could easily avoid "the Baron de Coubertin," the "Baron," etc. 2. The article uses inappropriate dashes (for instance: "Either way, the 1906 Games again attracted a broad international field of

participants in 1904, 80% had been American and great public interest, thereby marking the beginning of a rise in popularity and size of the Games." Em dashes (—) would conform to standard practice more. 3. The article makes awkward use of certain words: for instance, "The perhaps darkest chapter" as opposed to "Perhaps the darkest chapter." One sentence ends in "however", which sounds rather unusual: "Most contemporary Olympic historians consider them to be official Olympic Games, however." (Not an objection: To be pedantic, some sentences begin in "however"; these howevers can also be reworked into the middle of sentences.) 4. The article rather inconsistently uses "Olympics," "Olympic games," etc., as both plural and singular: "The first modern Olympic Games were a success ... it was the largest international sports event ever." One should consistently employ the plural; this involves using "they" rather than "it." Also note the sentence "Many athletes have become celebrities or heroes in their own country, or even world-wide, after becoming Olympic champion." 5. The article uses both "while" and "whilst"—one could just employ the latter. 6. The table could perhaps use solid borders. -- Emsworth 02:38, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)

• • I would like to note that small grammar fixes can usually be done by the person objecting. Snowspinner 05:21, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)
  • I went through Emsworth's remarks, but I have some notes: 1) There are two issues here. First, the formal name is indeed "Pierre, Baron de Coubertin". However, as far as I know, it is perfectly acceptable not to use this formal form at every occurrence. The name "Pierre de Coubertin" is used commonly in both English and French; both in books sources and the internet; I think we can safely use it here as well. Second, de vs. De. I explained my view on this in my answer to Meelar above. If you disagree, let me know. Changes made: first occurrence/image caption changed to "Pierre, Baron de Coubertin", changed "Baron de Coubertin" usage. 2) Done. 3) Done. 4) Done, although the occurrence you mentioned is the only one I could find. 5) I've replaced whilst by while, but as far as I know English (not a native speaker), there's nothing wrong with using them both. Whilst is just a British alternative for while, right? 6) This is actionable, but I don't see why this makes the table better (I guess this is pretty

subjective), so I haven't changed it. You're welcome to change it if you like. Jeronimo 08:28, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• • • My objection is based on the article's inconsistency. Both "whilst" and "while" are acceptable, but the article should use one or the other, not both. -- Emsworth 14:35, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)
    • I've looked up the Baron de Coubertin on Encarta: it appears that the correct reference is just "Coubertin," not "de Coubertin." [1] This assertion is consistent with the rule that "de" is used for collation purposes only when the surname includes one syllable. [2] -- Emsworth 14:42, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)
• Comment: I took a shot at improving the captions, and while I was there, I noticed many passive sentences throughout. Active sentences would help, though when I try to fix them, I sometimes presume an incorrect actor. -- ke4roh 00:15, Jul 13, 2004 (UTC)