Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yeshu
"Yeshu" is simply the name that is usually translated as "Jesus". The basis of this article is the claim that the "Yeshu" mentioned in the Talmud, who is sometimes referred to as "Yeshu Ha-Notzri" (Jesus the Nazarene) and who was executed on the eve of Passover, is a different person from Jesus of Nazareth. Although the article attempts to label identification of this person with the Christian Jesus as amateurish, the books I've consulted disagree. For example, the Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels (Ed. Green, McKnight, and Marshall) states that (pg. 366) "there is good reason to identify this "Jesus" with Jesus of Nazareth". Mention of this person in the Talmud is already covered at Quotations about Jesus in the Talmud. Josh Cherry 02:23, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Deletionist Josh Cherry put this here for no apparent reason and with no explaination. At worst the article needs formating. But thin info there is top notch.Zestauferov 02:19, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- I was in the middle of editing my explanation, as you might have guessed if you'd looked at the times. Josh Cherry 02:24, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- OK Sorry about that.
Check the chronologies in question. Ben Pandera and Yeshu are from two different time frames. One is a contemporary with Quene Salome Alexandra, the other is contemporary with Jacob Kephar. Chronological correspondence and the works of Rabbinical authority (Toledoth Yeshu is folklore and not Rabbinical) should have more clout in the matter. None of the arguments Josh has cited are omitted from the article so there is an equal presentation of the different views and their origin. There is also an early 2nd century heretic who was excecuted on the eve of passover, are we to assume that he too is the christian saviour?Zestauferov 02:45, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)- Yes, there is an anachronism in the Talmudic story. The accepted scholarly take on this seems to be that this is legend, and like a lot of legends contains an anachronism (the Talmud even mentions Mary, and a Carpenter!). This mainstream view is manifest in the quote I gave above. I don't really want to argue this point; it's not my view, it's accepted scholarship. Josh Cherry 12:46, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- OK Sorry about that.
- I was in the middle of editing my explanation, as you might have guessed if you'd looked at the times. Josh Cherry 02:24, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Keep and cleanup. This is clearly an encyclopedic topic, and VfD is not the place for disputes on the accuracy of the content. Create an article talk page for a start. Andrewa 03:23, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- VfD is not the place for accuracy disputes, but the accuracy of the very premise of an article can have a bearing on whether an article by that name should exist. In this case, it is as though someone created an article called "Jorge Washington" that discussed a person mentioned in Mexican writing, treating him as different person from George Washington when most scholars thought this obviously was the famous George Washington. I agree that the Talmudic story is encyclopedic, but it belongs at the existing Quotations about Jesus in the Talmud (kind of like we already had "Mentions of George Washington in Mexican Literature"). Josh Cherry 13:02, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Comment: Thank you, this is actually relevant to a VfD debate. But IMO the argument you put above would justify at most merge and redirect, which implies keep not delete. See the talk page. No change of vote. Andrewa 18:35, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- VfD is not the place for accuracy disputes, but the accuracy of the very premise of an article can have a bearing on whether an article by that name should exist. In this case, it is as though someone created an article called "Jorge Washington" that discussed a person mentioned in Mexican writing, treating him as different person from George Washington when most scholars thought this obviously was the famous George Washington. I agree that the Talmudic story is encyclopedic, but it belongs at the existing Quotations about Jesus in the Talmud (kind of like we already had "Mentions of George Washington in Mexican Literature"). Josh Cherry 13:02, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Keep. Don't even see a question, as a large number (most likely not the majority) of sources deny the identity of Yeshu and Jesus. Wikipedia is not a primary source — if User:Josh_Cherry has enough evidence for the final victory of the identification hypothesis, this must be battled out in academic discussion. Wikipedia will report the result. Pjacobi 16:22, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Keep. All criticisms mentioned above should be resolved through NPOV editing. If there is a controversy about the claim, then the article should describe the controversy, explaining the arguments by both sides. Postdlf 19:38, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Keep. NPOV work and make sure there's a link to it from Jesus Christ. Bacchiad 21:45, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Keep and seriously cleanup. This needs a lot of work. It could be an interesting article, but it is too one-dimensional and reads very much like an out of context cut and paste from somewhere else.Fire Star 21:53, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- I just realised Josh's comments above are pertaining to one of the characters in the Mishnah called Ben Pandera and also to the Toledoth Yeshu It is a simple case on his part of not knowing the correct Jewish terminolgy. Not every Yeshu in the talmud is the same man. I think the situation can be cleared up by adding "see also" links to these pages at the bottom of each pageZestauferov 22:22, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Keep. Aris Katsaris 03:41, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- I can see how this is going, so I've done my best to NPOV the article. Josh Cherry 15:16, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- I just had to undo your work. It was horribly inaccurate and without a single source to back it up. Remember this is a Jewish topic page not a christian one. Yeshu is an acronym standing for "May his name be erased" and is used for many people even today by Haredi Jews against certain secular politicians. It does seem like you are trying to force the article into an excuse for anti-semitism. Are the books you have read written by southern baptists per chance. You ought to be careful where you read things from there is a lot of anti-semitic propaganda out there. The chronological and orthodox Jewish fact is that Yeshu Ha-Notzri was not the same as Ben-Pandera no matter what people try to accuse us of. Please read through the Ben Pandera page for further original source and scholastic references and clarification.Zestauferov 16:55, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- So you just went and reverted my NPOV changes? This is the sort of thing I was afraid would happen. VfD is not the place for this, but for the record your accusations are baseless and reckless. I have not read any anti-semitic literature on the topic, and I am not a Christian. In fact I come from a Jewish background. The American Jewish Committee seems to think that the Talmud refers to Jesus (see [209.157.64.200/focus/f-religion/997317/posts]). You are simply confused. Josh Cherry 18:33, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- I just had to undo your work. It was horribly inaccurate and without a single source to back it up. Remember this is a Jewish topic page not a christian one. Yeshu is an acronym standing for "May his name be erased" and is used for many people even today by Haredi Jews against certain secular politicians. It does seem like you are trying to force the article into an excuse for anti-semitism. Are the books you have read written by southern baptists per chance. You ought to be careful where you read things from there is a lot of anti-semitic propaganda out there. The chronological and orthodox Jewish fact is that Yeshu Ha-Notzri was not the same as Ben-Pandera no matter what people try to accuse us of. Please read through the Ben Pandera page for further original source and scholastic references and clarification.Zestauferov 16:55, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Apparently controversial, but clearly an encyclopedic topic, which should indicate what scholars on both sides of the question say. Keep. And take the arguments over just what it should say to Talk:Yeshu. -- Jmabel 23:59, Jul 28, 2004 (UTC)
I vote that they be merged into an article about "Jesus in the Talmud", along with several other articles such as Pandera, and the rest deleted. As I've said in the Talk:Yeshu page, the only reason anyone cares at all about Yeshu(s) and Panderas and Ben Stadas etc. in the Talmud is because of the alleged connection to Jesus; if not for that, Talmudic stories about these individuals would be ignored by Wikipedia, as are the many Talmudic stories about hundreds of other individuals. Jayjg 22:12, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)