Talk:Jihad/Archive 3

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Sixth Pillar of Islam

To my knowledge, Jihad is never referred to as the sixth pillar of Islam by Muslims. This is disinformation and should be deleted: "Jihad is sometimes referred to as "The sixth pillar of Islam" in honor of its religious status and in reference to the Five Pillars of Islam, although no verse of the Qur'an or hadith describes jihad as a sixth pillar." --Alberuni 01:10, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Your knowledge of Islam is very shallow. I did not put the info about the "sixth pillar of Islam" in there, someone else did. But I too have read that Jihad is sometimes referred to as the "sixth pillar of Islam." In due time, the a source for this information will be provided. In the meantime, I think it should be left as it, since hadiths with "weak isnads" that are rejected by most orthodox Muslim scholars are being used to water down the fundamental importance of jihad in Islam by calling physical warfare the "lesser Jihad." Thus the two claims balance eachother, and the reader can decide which view of jihad is more prevelant amongst the Muslim masses. --Pename 02:26, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

Please delete the Sixth Pillar of Islam. THERE ARE AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN FIVE PILLARS OF ISLAM. Unless Wikipedia is trying to misinform people - ?????????????????? Peacenik 2.12.2004 00:06

Section titled "Islamist terrorism" is POV

This should be placed in a different article as it has nothing to do with the philosophy of Islamic Jihad. - - - - - - - STOP ALL THIS BIGATORY. - - - - - - - - - - - - - At the battle of Uhud the prophet was so worried about the opposing armies thirst he allowed them water before the battle commenced. All religious communities pervert the teachings of there supposed religion by justifying Holy War, Jews, Christians, Hindus et cetera. But in Islam the concept is not to destroy life unless you are forced to do so to protect you own life. Allah created all men that they have the choice and opportunity to worship the Divine. What sense is there in killing a life that in the fulness of time would loose the opportunity of FAITH. Muhammad was very particular that his followers did not kill other combatants. It is said that he was very angry when some soldiers killed an enemy man when he said he accepted Islam by affirmation. They reasoned that his affirmation was to save his life. Muhammad very angrily retorted 'How did you know what was in his mind.'Peacenik 11:57 on 1.12.2004

The title of the section reflects the author's POV. The text actually points out that Islamists do not consider it terrorism. "To non-Muslims, militant attacks under the rubric of jihad may be perceived as acts of terrorism. Two Islamist groups call themselves "Islamic Jihad": Egyptian Islamic Jihad and Palestinian Islamic Jihad. Supporters of these groups perceive a strong religious justification for a militant interpretation of the term jihad as an appropriate response to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip." You forgot Hamas, Hezbollah and al-Qaida. --Alberuni 01:33, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

A discussion of Islamist terrorism is appropriate in an article about Jihad. Therefore a section titled "Islamist terrorism" is appropriate. --Pename 01:56, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

Just declaring your biased opinion as fact is not sufficient. You interpret Jihad as terrorism and want to impose your POV on an article that is about Jihad. --Alberuni 02:13, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

A discussion of Islamist terrorism is appropriate in an article about Jihad. Many Muslims do not see terrorism as Jihad, but many Muslims DO see terrorism as Jihad. The aim of this article is to present all the different views about Jihad in the Muslim world. That's why there is a sectonn on terrorism. --Pename 03:29, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

As the terrorists themselves say they're doing it because Allah commands, I think it's a good idea to have a section on Moslem terrorists.

No, the "terrorists" don't say they are doing it because Allah commands it. Even if they camouflage their terrorism in religious terms, the justification given are very specific and political, such as Israeli occupation of their land (in Hamas and PLO case), American occupation of Iraq (in Iraq case), and even reasons given by bin Laden are very political. In 2004 Bin Laden video he made this statement, "If Bush says we hate freedom, let him tell us why we didn't attack Sweden, for example." Huh? OneGuy 00:47, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"Even if they camouflage their terrorism in religious terms"? This is a clear case of unfalsifiability. Are the terrorists saying they do it because Allah commands? No? Then, obviously, they weren't doing it because Allah commands. But what if they do? Then they're "camouflaging" it. (Addition: you've clearly decided what you think without consulting the facts. Please refrain from making edits.)

No they don't. They give political reasons. When the justification given are clearly political and it happens in political dispute then it's political. People use religious phrases all the time. Even George Bush claimed, "God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam" [1]. That doesn't mean we need to insert the claim that some Christians invaded Iraq because God told them. The war was political, not religious OneGuy 10:35, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sometimes (rarely), they do, like the Osama Binladin pre-election video .. which was a joke anyway, intended to influence the American election. Osama Binladin giving a speech about American values is a joke, considering he was in cahoots with the Taleban .. you call that freedom? And you do know the Swedish leadership was furious about Binladin's comments? And yes, George W. Bush has repeatedly invoked that name of God .. and his wars have clearly been religious, but I don't see how that relates to Jihad.

Bin Laden in his previous tapes also gave political justifications. As for being cahoots with Taliban, the US was in cahoots with mujahedeen in Afghanistan, then Northern Alliance. The US is in cahoots with Saudi Arabia and Egypt, both oppressive regimes. Anyway, we are getting off-topic here. Some of the violence, such as in Israel and Iraq, are clearly political. You have failed to convince me otherwise. OneGuy 23:01, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

That is a good thing, as I haven't been trying to convince you otherwise. I never said that all of the violence is religious - that kind of stand would be absurd. However, this is not to say that there is no religious violence, or that no violence has a religious factor.

72 virgins is an Islamophobe misinterpretation

The article has been seeded with Islamophobic hyperbole: "To many Muslims, a person who dies as a part of struggle against oppression is a shahid (martyr) and is assured a place in Janna (Paradise) where they will have 72 virgins, rivers of wine and fresh fruit." The 72 "virgins" are pure spirits who attend the deceased in Paradise. They are not virgins for sex like sex-obsessed westerners love to contemplate and ridicule.

"If the death of the person is certain, some consider the act martyrdom rather than suicide, which is a hell-worthy sin under Islamic religious law." This makes no sense. It should read, "Even if death is a certain outcome of the struggle against oppression, militants consider it an act of martyrdom. Suicide is a hell-worthy sin under Islamic religious law." --Alberuni 01:38, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This is false. It is widely known that the Qur'an paints a picture of a carnal paradise, where there is wine, fresh fruit, thrones to sit on, garment of silk, and women to have sex with. Perhaps Alberuni has some sort of fringe belief about Islamic paradise, but the vast majority of Muslims believe that the fair maidens of paradise describe in the Qur'an, and the 72 virgins for martrys in paradise, described in the hadith, refer to a carnal paradise involving sex. This is a very common interpretation, both amongst Muslims and non-Muslims, and amongst common people and academic scholars; it is not an "Islamaphobe" interpretation. --Pename 02:00, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

Provide references to Islamic sources to substantiate your "it is widely known" ruse. Where is the carnality of Paradise described in the Qur'an? It is widely known in Islamophobic circles. That's about it. --Alberuni 02:11, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Here is an Islamic source that describes the virgins in the carnal paradise described in Islam: http://www.muslim-forum.de/index.php?showtopic=467&pid=3271&st=0&#entry3271

Here is a specific quote:

"There is nothing but joy and happiness in Paradise; there is no room for hatred and rancour in the hearts of the people of Paradise. Al-hoor al-‘iyn are something which Allaah has created to honour the people of Paradise and to increase their delight. Moreover a man will be given the strength of one hundred men for intercourse, so the large number will not have any effect on a woman, and her feelings towards her co-wives and her husband’s concubines will not be like her feelings in this world."[2]

As you can see, both Muslims and non-Muslims interperet the "72 virgins" given the martyrs in Islamic paradise as being virgins for carnal intercourse in a carnal paradise. --Pename 02:20, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

Apparently, there is a Muslim "scholar" on a bulletin board in Germany who is as confused as you. Good job finding that obscure source to substantiate your generalization about what "many Muslims" believe. Are there descriptions of the carnality of Paradise in the Qur'an or hadith? --Alberuni 02:51, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Evidence from hadiths:

Narrated by Ahmad, 18827; classed as saheeh by Ibn Hibbaan, 16/443; and by Shaykh al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, 1627:

It was narrated from Anas that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The believer in Paradise will be given such-and-such strength for intercourse.” It was said, “O Messenger of Allaah, will he really be able to do that?” He said, “He will be given the strength of a hundred (men).”

End of discussion. This hadith is concrete evidence that the Islamic paradise can be interpreted as a carnal paradise, and in fact is interpreted as such by most Muslims. --Pename 03:10, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

Actually, Pename copied the wrong citation from the German bulletin board. This hadith is not Narrated by Ahmad, 18827; classed as saheeh by Ibn Hibbaan, 16/443; and by Shaykh al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, 1627. The bulletin board writer cites hadith Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 2536; classed as saheeh by Ibn Hibbaan, 16/413; and by Shaykh al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, 8106 but I have not been able to locate this hadith or independently confirm it. --Alberuni 00:27, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The "72 virigins of paradise" are called Houris in Arabic. There is already a Wikipedia article about this issue. But since you insist that the Islam does not say that Muslim men will have sex with the houris, here is proof from the Qur'an that Islamic paradise is carnal and involves sex (at least for the Muslim men in paradise):

"So [it will be] and We shall marry them to Houris with wide lovely eyes." [Qur'an 44:54]

The words "marry" in conjunction with "wide lovely eyes" are sexually suggestive. Combined with the Wikipedia entry on "houris" it can no longer be denied that Islam promised martyrs a carnal paradise involving sex with 72 virgins. --Pename 01:41, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC)

My recent edit

I intended to delete the absurd timeline, which - as I pointed out - constitutes POV propaganda in favor of terrorism, insofar as it classifies a variety of terrorist acts starting with the bizarre Hashshashin as "jihad". However, I accidentally deleted rather more than that, and find the software won't currently let me restore it. Without in any way implying that the rest of what I deleted is any good - I haven't read it yet - I do not object to restoring it apart from the timeline. - Mustafaa 01:45, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The timeline has been renamed to "Timeline of Islamist Military History" so as not to imply that all events listed in the timeline are universally concidered to be "legitimate Jihad" -Pename 01:56, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

Under such a title, it belongs in the Islamism article, not here. - Mustafaa 02:01, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You think that a timeline of the miilitary history of Muslims does not belong in an article titled Jihad? THat's laughable. You just want to suppress any negative information about your religion. --Pename 02:04, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

Indeed I don't think it belongs here. For one thing, this is not a history article. For another thing, it is certainly not Wikipedia's place to define which wars constitute "jihad", and which "hirabah" - and the new title, far from alleviating the difficulty, merely highlights the timeline's irrelevance to this article. - Mustafaa 02:08, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You are trying to assert that a timeline of the miilitary history of Muslims does not belong in an article titled Jihad. THat's laughable.

"it is certainly not Wikipedia's place to define which wars constitute "jihad", and which "hirabah"" <--- the timeline includes any military conflicts or terrorist attacks perpretrated under the banner of Jihad. whether or not you, or anyone else, approves of what happened does not mean that it did not happen. --Pename 02:14, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

"the timeline includes any military conflicts or terrorist attacks perpretrated under the banner of Jihad." No it doesn't - not remotely. If it did, it would be many times longer than the article itself. I don't see the Algerian War of Independence, or Emir Abdelkader's struggle, or World War I, or the struggle against the Taliban, or Usman dan Fodio, or the GIA, or any of the Hui's battles... you get the idea. Nor do I see evidence that many of these have ever even been claimed to be jihad; they include secular organizations like the PLF and the PFLP, among others. Completeness is impossible, and incompleteness on the order of this clearly biased. And - more generally - no; a "timeline of the military history of Muslims" belongs in, unsurprisingly, an article on the military history of Muslims - which this is not. - Mustafaa 03:33, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The Timeline is a joke. The guy has collected every terrorist attack and called it a timeline of Islamic military history. What a joke. Is terrorism and military history the same? This makes as much sense as someone would collect every terrorist attack and massacre committed by Israelis (such as Goldstein, Qana massacre etc) and sticking that in Judaism page as, "Timeline of Jewish military history." OneGuy 07:33, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This list is found on many Islamophobic websites, where this fellow cribbed most of his material. He is a real scholar of hate. --Alberuni 00:28, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"This list is found on many Islamophobic websites, where this fellow cribbed most of his material." <--- No I did not. You are deliberately making false accusation, in blatentl violation of Wikipedia policy. Please cite the URL where you think I copied the timeline from, if you think that that is the case (it certainly is not -- I did not copy anything in the timeline from any external website). -- Pename

Do you guys want to decide what's legitimate jihad, and what's not? Are you Islamic scholars? Just include the list, and include a note that "all of these are not necessarily considered legitimate jihad". --some anon

Interesting argument. Are you an Islamic scholar?! - Ta bu shi da yu 03:56, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I don't see where the anon claimed to be an Islamic scholar. He actually said something quite contrary to this. Asking him if he's an Islamic scholar (and with an excalamation mark at that) is just evidence that you are hysterical and cannot comprehend simple communications in the English language. -- Pename

I'm not, although learning about Islam is sort of a hobby of mine. :) I just pointed out that it's not our place (that is, neither your OR mine) to point out whether some specific activity was "Islamic" or not (considering that many Moslems disagree over what's Islamic or not, as well). IF such a timeline is included, it should specify all attacks that could possibly have been Islamic, and then include an extensive discussion about how Moslems feel about these.

If it's "suicide bombing", no cleric approves of it

Muslim clerics approve of legitimate resistance attacks, not suicide bombings or homicide bombings or terrorist attacks. The editor is mixing terms to make the clerics look like terrorist promoters. It is a different definition, similar to the likes of Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell applauding US Marines engaging in suicidal missions.

"There are Muslim clerics who authorize suicide bombing as a valid form of jihad, especially against Israel, her allies, and her supporters, believing that such attacks are legitimate responses to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza [2] (http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=jihad&ID=SP54203). One of these so named is the United States."

The link provided does not name the United States.

"However, there is also a significant number of Muslims residing in the United States and the United States gives more foreign aid to all Muslim countries together than it does to Israel, the largest single recipient of such aid."

This is the editor's complete editorial fabrication without independent source. To refite the content, it should be pointed out that Israel is provided more aid in total than any other country. Israel receives far more per capita than all Arab countries combined. Most of the US aid to Arab countries is part of a payoff for making peace with Israel, so in a way it is also aid to Israel. Israel is guaranteed military superiority by the US. etc etc. --Alberuni 01:49, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It is widely known that many Islamic clerics approve of suicide bombings, especially against Israelis. Of course they do not refer to them as "suicide bombings," instead they refer to such attacks as "martrydom operations." The links and references in the article give explicit examples of clerics approving of suicide bombings. --Pename 02:02, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

"It is widely known" doesn't cut it in an neutral encyclopedia. If the cleric approves martyrdom operations, why do you continue to translate it as suicide bombings? That's MEMRI's interpretation/translation. MEMRI was established by "retired" Israeli Mossad officers. Their POV is as obvious as answeringislam.com although they do a better job of providing documentation to substantiate their slanted perspective. If the allegations are to be included they will be NPOVed and MEMRI will be cited as the source. --Alberuni 02:08, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"If the cleric approves martyrdom operations, why do you continue to translate it as suicide bombings?" <--- because "marytrdom operation" is a euphamism for "suicide bombing" --Pename 02:26, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

That's your (and MEMRI's) interpretation. This is an encyclopedia article. You can't switch words and meaning to suit your editorial desire. What if I take the meaning of US Defense Department and switch it for US Imperialism Department because "it is widely known" that in the US "defense" is a euphemism for stealing oil, oppressing other countries and killing people to support US imperialism. No, it doesn't work that way. And neither do your edits to Jihad. Facts must be substantiated by references, not by opinions and interpretations. --Alberuni 02:43, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Every informed and rational person in the world knows that there are Muslim clerics who approve of suicide bombings, especially against Israel. This is so commonly known that it is beyond question. The appropriate sources have been given and the evidence is ample. The wikipedia entry on suicide bombing also confirms that a large number of Muslims support suicide bombings, and that suicide bombings are often called "martyrdom operations" by Muslims. --Pename 02:58, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

Someone's practicing Taqiyya again. To say that no cleric approves of it is not ignorance but lying. Rather, it should be pointed out that 'a minority' or 'some' or 'many' or 'most' do .. does anyone have specific statistics on this?

That was real sneering comment there, dude. First of all, Taqiyya is only Shi'a doctrine. I don't know if Alberuni is even Shi'a. Second, if instead of relying on anti-Islamic sites, you go to Shi'a sites, they explain Taqiyya quite differently, such as "al-Taqiyya" literally means: "Concealing or disguising one's beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies at a time of eminent danger, whether now or later in time, to save oneself from physical and/or mental injury." see. I don't think that applies in this case of posting to wiki. OneGuy 01:15, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

And I will add (though I am not that familiar with Shi'a doctrines; though I have seen this on many anti-Islamic sites), I don't Taqiyya means "lying." My guess is it means concealing your belief to save physical/mental harm. That's not the same as lying. This shi'a doctrine probably developed because they were minority and usually persecuted by majority Sunnis OneGuy

Forgive me if I seem insulting, I meant to seem so, because I lost my temper. Sorry. I just meant to point out the fact that it's pretty much common knowledge that at least some clerics approve of it. On the issue of Taqiyya, it could very much apply to a wiki, as in "preventing harm to Moslems as a whole".. but that's irrelevant.

Muhammad had no poets murdered

This is a typical Islamophobic smear. In fact, everything in the article from this line forward has nothing to do with Jihad and is mainly editorial "original research" by an Islamophobe editor. See Talk:Abu 'Afak and Talk:Asma bint Marwan "However, it is not entirely clear who is and who is not an "innocent person," nor is it entirely clear what qualifies as "creating disorder in the land." Muhammad concidered poetry against his new religion to be a form of "creating disorder in the land" and silenced a number of great poets of his day by having them murdered. " The excerpts from the Qur'an are not related to Jihad as even the editor admits: "The Qur'an uses the term jihad only four times, none of which refer to armed struggle. As such, the use of the word jihad, in reference to holy Islamic war, was a latter day invention of Muslims. However, the concept of holy Islamic war was not itself a latter day invention, and the Qur'an does contain passages laying out the theory and practice of armed struggle (qi'tal) for Muslims." These sections are all irrelevant to Jihad (except as it is misinterpreted by Islamophobes) and so it will all be deleted or moved to appropriate articles for NPOV sake. --Alberuni 02:03, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, he did. it's written clearly in the sira. your fringe beliefs do not reflect what most believes beleive. even today people are executed for criticizing islam, so what are you talking about? You are an extreme apologist, and therefore your point-of-view is completely non-neutral and not fit for an enclylopedia entry. --Pename 02:10, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

The story is a well-known fraud, like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, seized upon by bigots to smear the Prophet Muhammad. This source completely refutes it. [3]. The subject matter is irrelevant to Jihad anyway. These encyclopedia articles need to be NPOV, not the Franklin Graham hate-speech POV version that you are pushing. --Alberuni 02:37, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"The story is a well-known fraud, like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion" <--- the stories of Asama bint Marwan, Abu Awf, and others like them, appear in the Sira (biography of Muhammad) written by the early Muslim historian Ibn Ishaq. Ibn Ishaq's Sira is the earliest written biography about Muhammad. It doesn't get anymore reliable than that. Every other biography written about Muhammad is based on what Ibn Ishaq wrote in his Sira. The Sira is a reliable source of information about Muhammad, while Protocols of the Elders of Zion is not a reliable source of information about Jews. Both common people and academics, both Muslim and non-Muslim, believe that Ibn Ishaq's Sira is quite reliable. Why would Ibn Ishaq, a devout Muslim, smear Muhammad? Ibn Ishaq and his contemporaries did not see these stories as smears against Muhammad, they saw these stories as illustrations of Muhammad's strength, success, and manliness, because in medieval Arabia it was very common and completely acceptable to assasinate poets (poetry was the primary medium of political discourse in medieval Arabia). --Pename 02:54, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

the qur'an actually has a chapter called "The Poets" in which "the poets" are condemned. -- anon

Post proof, the exact verse, and major different interpretations by citing Islamic and neutral sites on that verse. You have twisted and misrepresented facts before. Your above one line comment is just another twist. This is not anti-Islamic propaganda site. You need to find the right site if that's your goal. This is supposed to be an Encyclopedia article. OneGuy 06:51, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

CHAPTER 26 of the Qur'an is titled AL-SHUARA (THE POETS). It contains the following verses:

026.224

YUSUFALI: And the Poets,- It is those straying in Evil, who follow them:

PICKTHAL: As for poets, the erring follow them.

SHAKIR: And as to the poets, those who go astray follow them.

026.225

YUSUFALI: Seest thou not that they wander distracted in every valley?-

PICKTHAL: Hast thou not seen how they stray in every valley,

SHAKIR: Do you not see that they wander about bewildered in every valley?

026.226

YUSUFALI: And that they say what they practise not?-

PICKTHAL: And how they say that which they do not?

SHAKIR: And that they say that which they do not do,

026.227

YUSUFALI: Except those who believe, work righteousness, engage much in the remembrance of Allah, and defend themselves only after they are unjustly attacked. And soon will the unjust assailants know what vicissitudes their affairs will take!

PICKTHAL: Save those who believe and do good works, and remember Allah much, and vindicate themselves after they have been wronged. Those who do wrong will come to know by what a (great) reverse they will be overturned!

SHAKIR: Except those who believe and do good and remember Allah much, and defend themselves after they are oppressed; and they who act unjustly shall know to what final place of turning they shall turn back. [4]

Interpretation from an Islamic website is not entirely neccessary because the messages of these verses is clear and umabigious, and the messsage itself is self-explanatory. However, if one does want to know the traditional interpretion of these verses, one must turn to the Tafsir (classical exegesis of the Qur'an]] of Ibn Kathir. The website Tafsir.com has a section explaining the above verses - the section is titled, "[The Exception of the Poets of Islam]" The title of the section explains its contents (it most dwellls on the last verse, 026.227). Also, the historical context of the verse must be understood. Specifically, it is important to understand the central importance of poets and poertry in medieval Arabia -- in medieval Arabia, oral poetry was the primary medium by which history, political discourse, propoganda and religion were transmitted. Thus they poets were given such importance as to have one of the Qur'an 114 chapters named "the poets." -- anonymous

Fixing Pename's mess

This will take some time... starting with the section I just edited:

"Orthodox Muslims do not see this as logically sound, and believe that it is Islam's goal to establish a global theocratic empire. Such Muslims wish to return to the days when a single Islamic Empire was ruled by a single Caliph. Islamists see this as a pious and important ambition, and they find justification for their imperialist beliefs in the mainstream Islamic legal tradition of the four Madhabs, which was codified in the early centuries of the budding Islamic empire.

Uh, no. Have you been reading too much LGF or something? "It is Islam's goal to establish a global theocratic empire" indeed!

"Mainstream Muslim scholarship continues to see its historical imperialism, such as when Islamic armies conquered Spain, marched half way into France, laid siege to Vienna, and invaded large portions of Eastern Europe, as blessed and legitimate occurrences of jihad."

Not quite. The conquest of Spain would be widely accepted as legitimate Jihad; the Ottoman Empire's deeds are considerably more disputed.

"The conquest of Spain would be widely accepted as legitimate Jihad" <---you have admitted that Muslims widely view wars of conquest, even conquests of European lands, as "legitimate Jihad." This means you have no grounds on which to dispute the claim that Muslims widely view wars of conquest as legitimate Jihad. --Pename 02:48, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

I like that "even conquests of European lands" touch - I assume your implication is that it's always OK to conquer African and Asian lands. And "Muslims widely view wars of conquest as legitimate Jihad"? More accurately, "Muslims widely view some wars of conquest as legitimate Jihad" - if they were carried out to end religious oppression, or (as is believed to have been the case in Spain) they were invited in by people within the kingdom.

Historians dispute whether forced conversion was or was not carried out during the era of Islamic imperialism which lasted approximately 1,300 years. Whether or not "conversion by the sword" was systematically carried out,

Actually, they don't and it wasn't.

Historians do, in fact, dispute whether or not conversions by the sword took place and if so how widespread such practices were. Almost everyone has heard of this dispute. You cannot deny that the dispute itself doesn't exist, that no historian has ever concidered whether or not such practices took place. --Pename 02:48, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

No - almost everyone has heard of this claim, which originated as Christian propaganda. If historians dispute this, I assume you can name a few examples? - Mustafaa 03:16, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

it is established that the jizyah (a tax laid exclusively on non-Muslims whose proceeds go to the government) created a kind of economic and social apartheid in which non-Muslims were economically and socially punished by the state for not converting to Islam. Non-Muslims payed jizya while Muslims, under the empire, payed a taxed called the zakat (a so-called "charity tax" which all Muslims pay even today, but instead of paying to the state they now pay zakat to charities of their choice). The zakat is a 2.5% tax, while the jizyah was about a 10% income tax; as explained in the Encyclopedia Britannica entry on jizyah, "many converted to Islam in order to escape the tax." [5] Non-Muslims were also usually denied entry to high-ranking military and civil service positions, although there were historical exceptions such as the Mughal Empire where non-Muslims did reach high-ranking positions.

This entire section couldn't be more irrelevant to the article if it tried, even if it were NPOVed. This has nothing to do with jihad.

The paragraph on jizya IS relevant, and its relevance is explained in the discussion here titled #What do Zakat and Jizyah have to do with Jihad? --Pename 02:48, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

In the same spirit, today in several Islamic countries, Muslims who are known to have left the religion are accused of apostasy and are given an ultimatum to either convert back to Islam or face execution; though in modern times, such executions have been rare to nonexistent in some Muslim countries.

So is this.

The issue of apostacy, and history of the apostate tribes in the early days of Islam, relates to debate about whether or not forced conversions took place while the Muslims were waging their Jihads of conquests in order to expand the Islamic empire and the rule of the Caliph (a debate which you apparently think does not exist). --Pename 02:48, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

Economic motivations - as the theorists of capitalism constantly remind us - do not constitute "force". Nor do taxes - or executions for apostasy - constitute any part of jihad. The wider debate on why so many people in the Islamic empire ultimately converted to Islam is interesting, but is not relevant to this article, which at most would describe the nature of the conquest itself, not its possible consequences centuries later. The explanation above may have convinced whoever you were arguing with, but it does not convince me. - Mustafaa 03:16, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Economic discrimination based on relgion is a form of oppressive force. --Pename 03:34, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

No, force is a form of force. Economic discrimination is a form of differential taxation. I guess you think rich people are being subject to "oppressive force" if they pay higher tax rates than poor people... - Mustafaa 03:41, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thoughts on this article

I have a few questions I'd like to have answered about this article, mainly so we can tighten it up a bit and reduce edit wars and bias.

As Islamic "Holy War"

"The Islamic legal tradition identifies two types of armed religious warfare, namely the defensive jihad and the offensive jihad. Most Muslims consider armed struggle against foreign occupation or oppression by domestic government to be worthy of defensive jihad. In colonial times, Muslim populations often rose up against the colonial authorities under the banner of jihad (examples include Daghestan Chechnya against Russia, the Indian Mutiny against Britain, and the Algerian War of Independence against France). In this sense, defensive jihad is no different from the right of armed resistance against occupation that is sanctioned under the UN and International Law, though armed resistance against one's own domestic government is not sanctioned by international humanitarian law."

What Islamic legal tradition? References to this?

A quick search on google for "offensive jihad" will bring up many, many sources, both Muslim adnd non-Muslm. I have edited the article and added a source: http://i-cias.com/e.o/jihad.htm (Enclyopedia of the Orient). --Pename 03:43, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

"Offensive jihad is the waging of wars of aggression and conquest against non-Muslims in order to bring them and their territories under Islamic rule."

Reference to either where this is stated in doctrine, or who has stated this? If we can't provide a scholar or commentator who says this, then I think this is getting to be original research. Please note that I'm not saying that this is not the case, but I would like some external verification from a reasonably well-known and respectable source.

A reference to the Enclyopedia of the Orient entry on Jihad has been added as a reference to the claim regarding offensive jihad. Offensive Jihad is mentioned in the Enclyopedia of the Orient: " offensive jihad, i.e. attacking, is fully permissible in Sunni Islam" --Pename 03:55, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

And on what basis is the Encyclopedia of the Orient an authority? Indeed, how do we know that it's any more reliable than Wikipedia? Its self-description is scarcely convincing. Better and more detailed sources are clearly called for. - Mustafaa 03:57, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've added more sources and evidence of Offensive Jihad in the Offensive Jihad section --Pename 08:30, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

"Liberal Muslims, today, dispute its necessity."

Who are "Liberal Muslims"? Who in particular is disputing this?

"Liberal Muslims" refers to liberal minded, progressive Muslims who say that the offensive Jihads are not longer needed, even though the traditonal Islamic law say that it is mandatory. These people are liberal because they are willing to break away from long standing traditions. It is common sense that there are Muslims do reject the traditional imperialism of their religion; there is no need to say who in particular. --Pename 03:51, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

"Some say that it was practiced only to preserve Islam from destruction, and that the concept is now obsolete because freedom of religious practice is present in most of the world. "

Warning! Weasel words! Who says this?

This has been edited. This refers to what the "liberal Muslims" say about Islam's traditional imperialism. One could also say that this is the argument made by apologists for Islam, but I decided against exhibiting such hostility against progressive liberal Muslims who try to ideologically break away from traditions such as Islamist imperialism. --Pename 03:55, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

"Others argue that it is questionable whether Muslims established the second-largest empire in the history of the world, through war and conquest, only to preserve Islam from destruction. Orthodox Muslims do not see this as logically sound, and believe that it is Islam's goal to establish a global theocratic empire. Such Muslims wish to return to the days when a single Islamic Empire was ruled by a single Caliph."

Are the "others" Orthodox Muslims? Who or what are Orthodox Muslims?

"Orthodox" is a word used to describe the traditionalist faction within a major religion. Anyway, this section has been largely rewritten to address your concerns. --Pename 08:29, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

"Islamists see this as a pious and important ambition, and they find justification for their imperialist beliefs in the mainstream Islamic legal tradition of the four Madhabs, which was codified in the early centuries of the budding Islamic empire."

Can we have specific examples of Islamists and what they have said?

this has been rewritten. everyone knows that the muslim masses yearn for the glory days of Islam when the ISlamic empire was the world's superpower. Muslims do not see their imperial past as unethical and unfortunate, as many Westerners (especially liberals) have come to see their imperial past as unfortunate and unethical. --Pename 08:29, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

"Mainstream Muslim scholarship continues to see its historical imperialism, such as when Islamic armies conquered Spain, marched half way into France, laid siege to Vienna, and invaded large portions of Eastern Europe, as blessed and legitimate occurrences of jihad."

Define "mainstream Muslim scholarship". Please give examples of where "mainstream Muslims" have said this... though we can't until we define what is meant by mainstream.

this has been written --Pename 08:29, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

"Historians dispute whether forced conversion was or was not carried out during the era of Islamic imperialism which lasted approximately 1,300 years."

Which historians? Which historians are disputing this? Can we have references to such disputes?

i've elaborated on this, and described which historians --Pename 08:29, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

"Whether or not "conversion by the sword" was systematically carried out, it is established that the jizyah (a tax laid exclusively on non-Muslims whose proceeds go to the government) created a kind of economic and social apartheid in which non-Muslims were economically and socially punished by the state for not converting to Islam. Non-Muslims payed jizya while Muslims, under the empire, payed a taxed called the zakat (a so-called "charity tax" which all Muslims pay even today, but instead of paying to the state they now pay zakat to charities of their choice). The zakat is a 2.5% tax, while the jizyah was about a 10% income tax; as explained in the Encyclopedia Britannica entry on jizyah, "many converted to Islam in order to escape the tax." [6] Non-Muslims were also usually denied entry to high-ranking military and civil service positions, although there were historical exceptions such as the Mughal Empire where non-Muslims did reach high-ranking positions. The Sira (biography of Muhammad) also mentions the wars against entire Arab tribes who were followers of Islam while Muhammad lived, but tried either to defect from the religion when its prophet died. In the same spirit, today in several Islamic countries, Muslims who are known to have left the religion are accused of apostasy and are given an ultimatum to either convert back to Islam or face execution; though in modern times, such executions have been rare to nonexistent in some Muslim countries."

Uh... this appears to be getting away from Jihad. How is this relevant to the article? Could we have an explanation of why this is important and relevant to Jihad? Otherwise it may have to go.

this is indeed relevant to the subject of Jihad. For clarity, this paragraph has been put into subsection 2.2.1: "Offensive Jihad as a Method for the Propagation of Islam" --Pename 08:29, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

"Jihad is sometimes referred to as "The sixth pillar of Islam" in honor of its religious status and in reference to the Five Pillars of Islam, although no verse of the Qur'an or hadith describes jihad as a sixth pillar."

When has Jihad been referred to as "the sixth pillar of Islam"? Who by? Not everyone refers to it as such it seems. This is very unclear. Could we have this clarified?

i've deleted the "sixth pillar" comments. i've already read that jihad is sometimes called the "sixth pillar of islam" but the person who inserted this into the wikipedia article did not bother to provide a source, and i dont have a source. it's also unimportant anyway, so i deleted it. --Pename 08:29, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

(more to come)

Ta bu shi da yu 03:22, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm glad to see you agree with so many of my points. See my edits for my answers to a lot of these issues. - Mustafaa 03:38, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I do agree with many of your points, though I am not a Muslim. I dislike it when people mischaracterise my faith (I'm a Christian) and I dislike it when they mischaracterise yours! I hope you will be able to help us constructively NPOV and clarify information in this article. - Ta bu shi da yu 04:03, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Political military authority

"Muslims hold that an "Offensive Jihad" can only be declared by a lawful and legal Muslim authority, traditionally the Caliph. However, no authority is needed for the "Defensive Jihad" to become effective in Islamic traditional law, which holds that when Muslims are attacked then it becomes obligatory for all Muslim men of military conscription age, within a certain radius of the attack, to take up arms against the attackers. If the attacker is not defeated, then the "radius of obligation," so to speak, continues to expand, until it may encompass the whole world and every Muslim male of military conscription age."

Again, an earlier part of the article needs to clarify where it states that there is such a thing as an "Offensive Jihad" and a "Defensive Jihad". Also, a reference to the information about "radius of obligation" needs to be provided, as there is a risk that this will be accused of being original research. This definitely needs tightening.

"The question of which Muslim authority, if any, may carry out duties such as declaring Jihad has been problematic since March 3, 1924 CE, when Kemal Atatürk abolished the Caliphate, which the Ottoman sultans had held since 1517. There is no longer a single Muslim authority, which is considered a violation of the shariah (see Caliph). Sunni Islam (the largest denomination) has no religious hierarchy comparable to that of many Christian churches (although Shi'a Islam, which was historically persecuted by the Islamic state, does); its religion and government have been at times tightly woven into a political system known as the Caliphate, or khalifah. (Many of those termed Islamists in contemporary political rhetoric wish to return to this system of government.) Due to this lack of clerical organization amongst the vast majority of Muslims, any adherent may proclaim himself an "ulama" (Islamic scholar) and proclaim a defensive jihad by way of fatwa. Recognition is at the discretion of the listener."

Seems OK.

"In the absence of a Caliph, the only remaining "de facto" Islamic leaders would be the heads of the Islamic nation-states. However, due to the rampant corruption plaguing governments in the Muslim world and the view amongst some Muslims that the democratic or monarchic nation-state is an un-Islamic institution, there is widespread distrust of these heads of state. As a result Islamist movements (such as Al Qaida or Hamas) have declared jihad themselves, thus attempting to bypass (and even overthrow) the de facto authority of the nation-state."

Rampant corruption? Please expand and clarify! Also, another weasel word alert: "the view amongst some Muslims". Which Muslims please. Is the article referring to Al Quaida or Hamas exclusively, or is it referring to these and other movements? Or is it referring to other organisations entirely? - Ta bu shi da yu

I would add:

(although Shi'a Islam, which was historically persecuted by the Islamic state, does)" : the "historically persecuted by the Islamic state" bit is both vague (Shia have established their own states many times, starting with the Idrisids, and done their own fair share of persecuting too) and explains nothing (Kharijites were persecuted and developed no such structure.)
"Due to this lack of clerical organization amongst the vast majority of Muslims," - "lack of clerical organization" is a decided oversimplification of a complex issue. - Mustafaa 03:45, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Please, feel free! Be bold, and try to write from a neutral point of view. Please also cite external sources :) - Ta bu shi da yu 04:04, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Oh, I have - although this guy reflexively reverted it. - Mustafaa 04:10, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Islamist terrorism

To non-Muslims, militant attacks under the rubric of jihad may be perceived as acts of terrorism. Two Islamist groups call themselves "Islamic Jihad": Egyptian Islamic Jihad and Palestinian Islamic Jihad. Supporters of these groups perceive a strong religious justification for a militant interpretation of the term jihad as an appropriate response to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

OK, this seems OK. It's specific, seems pretty accurate and just attempts to state facts.

To many Muslims, a person who dies as a part of struggle against oppression is a shahid (martyr) and is assured a place in Janna (Paradise) where they will have 72 virgins, rivers of wine and fresh fruit.

I've heard this also, however where does this information come from? I've always wanted to know. Can we have a citation for this information?

If the death of the person is certain, some consider the act martyrdom rather than suicide, which is a hell-worthy sin under Islamic religious law. If non-combatant Muslims perish in such attacks, they are also considered shahid and thus have also secured a place in paradise. Hence, the only true victims are the kaffir, or unbelievers.

More weasel words! "some consider the act martydom rather than suicide". Who considers this martydom? Not only that, but for this whole paragraph I don't know where the writer is getting this information from. Sources for this information, please!

This section has been elaborated on. Sources are now given. --Pename 08:17, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

Those Muslims who disagree with the militant interpretation believe instead that suicide and killing civilians remain sins, since neither suicide nor attacks against civilians are considered legitimate outcomes of jihad.

Which Muslims disagree with the militant interpretation? Also, tighten up the language (I'll probably do this) in the last sentence.

I didn't write this paragraph and I'm not sure what to do with it. If someone else can improve upon it, it would be appreciated (e.g. if someone could elaborate on arguments by Muslim Islamic scholars AGAINST suicide bombings) --Pename 08:17, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

The basis of shahid can be traced back to the words of Muhammad prior to the battle of Badr where he stated:

"I swear by the One in whose hand Muhammad's soul is, any man who fights them today and is killed while he is patient in the ordeal and seeks the pleasure of Allah, going forward and not backing off, Allah will enter him into Paradise."

There are Muslim clerics who authorize suicide bombing as a valid form of jihad, especially against Israel, her allies, and her supporters, believing that such attacks are legitimate responses to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza [7]. One of these so named is the United States. However, there is also a significant number of Muslims residing in the United States and the United States gives more foreign aid to all Muslim countries together than it does to Israel, the largest single recipient of such aid.

Do we have specific instances of Muslim clerics who authorize suicide bombings? The link may talk about this, I haven't had a chance to check this... perhaps we could clarify this.

Yes, the link gives a specific instance of such a Muslim cleric. Other such instances are mentioned in the Wikipedia entry on suicide bombing.

Many Islamic legal rulings view any killing of civilians (whether through combat or any other such militant activity) as against the ethics of Islam.

Good to hear, however can we have specific instances of these rulings so we can verify the validity of this statement?

I dont have any on me. I wish the person who wrote that sentence had given a reference. Maybe someone else can do this (e.g. a moderate Muslim contributor)?

Moreover, since terrorist organizations do not constitute any autonomous state or de facto authority, and because targets of jihad can only be recognized military targets, most Muslims do not consider terrorism to be an extension of jihad.

OK... this statement might be OK, but I think that we could clarify this.

I dont agree with this statement. I agree it needs clarification. It also needs references. It also has a Weasal Word. But I won't delete it for now; maybe someone can clean it up. --Pename 08:17, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

Islamist proponents of terrorism argue, on the other hand, that economic targets can be seen as military targets, and often cite Muhammad's numerous caravan raids (see Battle of Badr for a description of one such caravan raid and the war that it led to).

Which proponents is the article referring to?

The Qur'an specifically forbids attacking women, children, elderly people, and civilian buildings during a military campaign.

Where does it say this in the Qur'an? I am not an expert, and I would like specific information so that I can verify this claim (I'm not saying this info is wrong, it just needs to be clarified).

I don't think that the Qur'an actually forbids these things, I believe they are forbidden in the hadiths. The person who wrote this statement should have provided a verse number. Now we don't know what he or she was talking about. --Pename 08:17, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

However, there can be exceptions. Just as Western philosophies of war permitted harm to civilians and categorized it as "collateral damage," so too did Muhammad and his followers devise similar justifications.

OK, dangerous ground. Which Western philosophies is the article referring to? How is it relevant to Jihad? Are we comparing the same things? Islam is more than a philosophy, after all. It's a religion. This bit most definitely needs clarifying!

Western philosophies such as the modern study of ethics, and secular humanism. In Western philosophical thought on ethics, the concept and legitimacy of collateral damage is well-established. For example, droppings bombs that might killed civilians is not concidered wrong in the Geneva Conventions. I don't think it needs much clarifying - I think it's common knowledge that the concept of "collateral damage" has legitimacy in conteporary western thought and discourse. --Pename 08:17, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

In 630 CE Muhammad led the Siege of al-Ta'if, where the Muslims first discovered catapults. Muhammad deemed it permissible to use the catapults against the enemy, despite the fact that women and children would be put at risk of being killed by the boulders and burning missiles launched from the catapults. Muhammad deemed this to be a sort of permissible collateral damage.

Very specific info, something this article lacks. Look OK to me.

One hadith discusses the circumstances in which military action may be taken against the enemy, even if it is known that fellow Muslims taken prisoner by the enemy would be killed as a result of such military action; the essential message is that it is permissible to take the life of an innocent person (even a fellow Muslim), during war, if it is demonstrably for the greater good.

Which hadith? Again, we need to verify this information.

I'm trying to locate this hadith. I've read it before, but must locate it. --Pename 08:17, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

The Qur'an denounces the killing of any person who is not guilty of at least one of two crimes:

"Whosoever killed a person - unless it be for killing a person or for creating disorder in the land - it shall be as if he killed all mankind; and whoso saved a life, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind." (5:32)

State the entire thing please. "Because of this, we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people. Our messengers went to them with clear proofs and revelations, but most of them, after all this, are still transgressing." (5:32)

However, it is not entirely clear who is and who is not an "innocent person," nor is it entirely clear what qualifies as "creating disorder in the land." Muhammad considered poetry against his new religion to be a form of "creating disorder in the land" and silenced a number of great poets of his day by having them murdered. One such silenced poetess was Asma bint Marwan. Another such poet was Abu 'Afak.

Specific information is included here, so that's good. Seems OK to me.

In a similar spirit, "Theo van Gogh (47), a Dutch filmmaker who had made a movie critical of some aspects of Islamic society and culture, has been shot dead in an Amsterdam street on November 2 [2004]. The late great-grand-nephew of famous Dutch painter Vincent van Gogh had received many death threats after releasing Submission last August, a short film detailing the treatment of Muslim women. He shrug off the threats, saying there was nothing offensive in his movie. The killer, a 26-year-old Moroccan residing in Holland, was wearing a long beard and Islamic garb when he shot and stabbed van Gogh in broad daylight. He was arrested after a shootout with the police." [http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2004/11/dutch_police_ar.php 3]

Uh... we don't need the whole report quoted verbatim. We can just state what happened and point people to the referenced information, also to the Theo van Gogh article. Perhaps clarification of the specific reasons for him being shot due to Jihad could be given also.

I removed the sentence about Theo Van Gogh "shrugging off" the death threats. As for the specific reason for his murder - it's stated right there above: he "had received many death threats after releasing Submission last August, a short film detailing the treatment of Muslim women." --Pename 08:17, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

Another famous incident of this kind was the death fatwa against Salman Rushdie, issued by Ayatollah Khomeini, in which Khomeini called upon any Muslim in the world to murder Salman Rushdie, because of the books which Rushdie wrote about Islam.

Fair point I think.

Today, most publicly known Western critics of Islam recieve a constant stream of death threats from Islamic fanatics seeking to silence them, and have to employ constant the service of body guards (Canadian TV producer and publicly known Muslim critic of orthodox Islam, Irshad Manji, is sometimes cited as the "new Salman Rushdie" and employs the service of a number of Israeli trained body guards). In the Muslim world, those who dare to publicly criticize Islam are usually executed or imprisoned by their governments, under laws against "spreading disorder through the land" and apostasy.

Seems OK, however someone may disagree.

Other examples of this ambiguity as to who is an "innocent person" and who is a "guilty person," and thus must be killed, are found in the discussion above suicide bombers in Israel (and their ideological supporters) who view all Isrealies as guitly persons who can legitimately be killed. Yet another example of this ambiguity can be found in the discussion above regarding the issue of apostasy in Islam, and the fact that traditionally Muslims who defected from Islam were guitly persons who had to be executed for their beliefs. Clearly, there are instances where Islam's and Islamists' views of who is innocent and who is guilty differ from modern secular democratic ideals. Also discussed earlier was Islam's 1,300 year history of imperialism and expansionism, a practice that started with Muhammad himself. Traditional Islamic jurists did not concider it a sin to aggressively make war against non-Muslims in order to conquer their lands; thus countless innocent lives were taken by Islam's imperial armies as they spread their empire, but the Islamists saw these non-Muslims as guilty persons who could legitimately be killed. The Qur'an explicitly outlaws many "crimes" which modern secular society sees as fundamental rights or civil liberties. The point being that the concept of who is an "innocent person" and who is a "guilty person" can vary widely between different cultures, nations, religions, and eras in history. Hence a solitary verse of the Qur'an declaring that "whosoever kills an innocent person or creates disorder in the land will burn in Hell" is not by any means the complete Islamic legal framework about who can and cannot be killed and under which circumstances.

I've done a bit of a copyedit already, but I think the piece needs tightening. Perhaps instead of saying "are found in the discussion above about" could be rephrased. This whole section seems to be arguing a point to convince the reader something. I think that this needs a whole lot of work, because we don't argue for or against anything, we only characterise and describe situations, facts and opinions. I think this clearly comes out in words like "the point being" (we're trying to make a point? Why?). This bit needs significant tightening!

The pargraph is not arguing for or against anything, it is describing the disparity between modern notions of "innocent persons" and the traditional Islamic (i.e. medieval Arab) notions of "innocent persons." In past centuries, Muslims deemed it permissible to aggressively wage wars of imperialism against non-Muslims. Normally, if somsone tries to kill you then that person is "guiltly" and can justifiably by killed. BUt if someone is not bothering you, and you kill that person, then most people would say that you've killed an "innocent person." But Islamic imperial ideology is not compatable with this notion of "innocent person" because imperialism requires attacking and killing people who are not bothering you. I think it's pretty a obvious fact and common sense fact that Islam's notions of "innocent" and "guilty" are different from modern secular liberal democratic ideas of about who are "innocent people" and who are "guilty." This is not an argument for against anything, it's a description of the state of current affairs as far as Islamic law compares to modern secular law. That's what this paragraph conveys. --Pename 08:18, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

This ambiguity and disagreement, within Islam, over who are "innocent persons" and who are "guilty persons" is most clearly evident in the modern history of Jihad and the theories of warfare that its modern proponents wrote. One of the most well known contemporary Jihad theorists was Sayyid Qutb (an Egyptian who was one of the founders of contemporary militant Islamic ideology) who wrote a series of books, while in prison, in which he declared that all people who participated in any form of government that was not an Islamic theocracy (either by participating in the councils of such a form of government, or campaigning for a political party in democratic system, or even encouraging people to vote in a democratic form of government) could be considered guilty persons who could justifiably be killed. In a recently aired documentary by BBC, titled "The Power of Nightmares: The Rise of the Politics of Fear," in its second eposide, it was explained that "The implication [of Qutb's belief] was that these leaders could justifiably be killed, because they had become so corrupted, they were no longer Muslims, even though they said they were." [8]. One of Sayyid Qutb's followers was to become Osama bin Laden's personal mentor; he was an Egyptian named Ayman al-Zawahiri, who wrote (like Qutb, while in prison) an even more radical framework for the contemporary militant Islamic ideology. In the first eposide of the BBC documentary, it was explained that "The mystery, for Zawahiri, was why the Egyptian people had failed to see the truth and rise up [against their un-Islamic secular leaders]. It must be because the infection of selfish individualism had gone so deep into people’s minds that they were now as corrupted as their leaders. Zawahiri now seized on a terrible ambiguity in Qutb’s argument. It wasn’t just leaders like Sadat who were no longer real Muslims, it was the people themselves. And Zawahiri believed that this meant that they too could legitimately be killed. But such killing, Zawahiri believed, would have a noble purpose, because of the fear and the terror that it would create in the minds of ordinary Muslims. It would shock them into seeing reality in a different way. They would then see the truth." [9]

Interesting information, however the paragraph starts by saying "This ambiguity and disagreement, within Islam, over who are "innocent persons" and who are "guilty persons" is most clearly evident in the modern history of Jihad and the theories of warfare that its modern proponents wrote." Then two proponents of an extreme view are given a large amount of coverage, from one source (a BBC series). There is nothing written about the disagreement that others have with their views, nothing about ambiguity over... something. Ambiguity over what? This seems biased to me, and should be expanded, clarified and NPOVed.

Ambiguity over who is an "innocent person," who is a "guilty person," who is a "real muslim," who can be killed and under what circumstances. There is a great deal of disagreement over these issues amongst Muslims, due to the ambiguity, in the Islamic ideology and legal theory, regarding these issues. But I agree that that the opposite point of view should also get more coverage in the article, like I said above, a moderate Muslim contributor could perhaps explain the arguments that moderate Muslims have against Islamist terrorism. --Pename 08:18, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

Ta bu shi da yu 03:57, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Muhammad had no poets murdered

This is a typical Islamophobic smear. In fact, everything in the article from this line forward has nothing to do with Jihad and is mainly editorial "original research" by an Islamophobe editor. See Talk:Abu 'Afak and Talk:Asma bint Marwan "However, it is not entirely clear who is and who is not an "innocent person," nor is it entirely clear what qualifies as "creating disorder in the land." Muhammad concidered poetry against his new religion to be a form of "creating disorder in the land" and silenced a number of great poets of his day by having them murdered. " The excerpts from the Qur'an are not related to Jihad as even the editor admits: "The Qur'an uses the term jihad only four times, none of which refer to armed struggle. As such, the use of the word jihad, in reference to holy Islamic war, was a latter day invention of Muslims. However, the concept of holy Islamic war was not itself a latter day invention, and the Qur'an does contain passages laying out the theory and practice of armed struggle (qi'tal) for Muslims." These sections are all irrelevant to Jihad (except as it is misinterpreted by Islamophobes) and so it will all be deleted or moved to appropriate articles for NPOV sake. --Alberuni 02:03, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, he did. it's written clearly in the sira. your fringe beliefs do not reflect what most believes beleive. even today people are executed for criticizing islam, so what are you talking about? You are an extreme apologist, and therefore your point-of-view is completely non-neutral and not fit for an enclylopedia entry. --Pename 02:10, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

The story is a well-known fraud, like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, seized upon by bigots to smear the Prophet Muhammad. This source completely refutes it. [10]. The subject matter is irrelevant to Jihad anyway. These encyclopedia articles need to be NPOV, not the Franklin Graham hate-speech POV version that you are pushing. --Alberuni 02:37, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)