Talk:Fan fiction/Archive 1

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The following contradicts what I have read elsewhere:

An historical version of fanfiction, "Slash" has been around since the 1960s. Named for stories featuring two characters interacting (often sexually) as in Kirk/Spock, these stories were often passed around in feminist fanzines.

According to [1]:

Is it true the first fan fiction was gay fiction?!!? Though many people seem to have that impression, it's not correct. [Slash] stories... appeared in the late seventies.

And:

The first recognized and widely read fan fiction came into being as a result of the fan fervor over Star Trek.

As I understand this, non-slash Star Trek fanfic predates slash. The article gives the impression that slash came first. -- SJK

Slash began in the mid- to late 1970s. Sexually explicit Star Trek stories were extremely controversial prior to that time and existed only in heterosexual form. Certain fanzines such as Grup existed for these stories. They were not widespread nor widely accepted prior to the mid-70s. About as racy as it ever got was Spock Enslaved and some of the implied BDSM of Sondra Marshak and Myrna Culbreath's Price of the Phoenix and Fate of the Phoenix. I saw most of this, and I wouldn't refer to the authors as feminists, although I wouldn't know about the readers. --Bluejay Young 10:52, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

There was a period a few years ago when Lucasfilms went on a rampage against fan sites, sending cease and desist letters to many. In contrast, they were ecstatic with people who made professional-looking films with Star Wars characters. Someone even wrote an essay analyzing the pattern, concluding that it's because Lucas can't control fans like he can control professionals he can coopt. Or perhaps it's the class differences. We know that Lucas is an aristocratic fuck whose preference is for a dictatorship to rule the unwashed masses (hence the whole Jedi Knight shite). And we know that Lucasfilms is "protective" of its trademarks, suing people for using the name "skywalker". Can you imagine Paramount suing someone for calling themselves Captain Kirk or something?

Anyways, is it accurate that the most important source of fanfic (or slash) is based on manga? This seems extremely unlikely to me. -- Ark

In terms of volume? I don't know -- sounds to me like whoever wrote that just had more exposure to anime fanfic. Trek fic goes back to the days of the original series, so there's lots of it, even though it may not be on the Net. The author may have been thinking of doujinshi, which are Japanese fan-published comic books that often (but not always) feature sexual scenes with popular characters from anime, manga, or video games. There are heaps and heaps of doujinshi. Whether doujinshi count as "fanfic" as opposed to "fanart" is arguable, especially considering how many of 'em are low on plot! --FOo

Well, it does say "Nowadays", which can be taken to mean "Available on the internet." In that case, it might be true that there are more fanfic stories based on anime and manga than others. If you use FanFiction.net as an indicator of relative popularites, there around 230,000 anime/manga stories, 150,000 book based stories, 108,000 TV based series, and so on. However, Harry Potter makes up about two thirds of the book based fanfic on that site, which would make Potter based fanfic third most popular, behind anime/manga and TV, and make non-Potter book based fanfic fifth, behind game based fanfics.

However, the extent to which the fandom of a particular series, or even class of series, partipates on FanFiction.net isn't always the same. For instance, outside of FFN, Ranma fanfics are the most numerous, but on FFN, they are about the 7th most numerous. -- Khym Chanur 07:25, Nov 2, 2003 (UTC)

At the moment (April 17th) the article states the following: Nowadays the largest form of fanfic is based on Japanese anime/manga series, followed by those based on J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter series, American cartoon series, and science fiction serials.

I find this an odd comparison. Stating the 'largest form' of fanfic is based on anime/manga series might be correct, but comparing such a large group of television shows and comic books to one single collection of 5 books is not entirely fair. I think this should be changed.

Anyone else have an opinion on this before someone does the deed? --Mgm 22:47, Apr 17, 2004.

I don't understand the example of Kirk/Spock for slash fiction. Does the article mean to assert that Kirk and Spock had a homesexual relationship going? --Ed Poor

I found the following factoids here:

an entire subgenre devoted to taking the friendship of Kirk and Spock to its ultimate expression -- by making them into lovers.
One FAQ list defines slash as "fan-written fiction that posits that characters of the same sex from a media show are sexually involved with each other."
Fan fiction about speculative romances between characters of opposite sexes is called "het," or "gen," which I guess means "general" or "generic."

The term "slash fiction" originated with Kirk/Spock (abbreviated K/S, hence "K slash S") sexual fanfic. Slash is pretty much by definition out of character -- so asserting the existence of K/S fanfic does not allege that the canonical characters James Kirk and Spock had a sexual relationship. --FOo

Thanks, FOo. I think the phrase out of character would help the slash fiction explanation. On my first (rapid) reading about K/S, I gathered the impression that homosexuality was being imputed to the characters. Now I get the idea that despite their original non-homosexual nature, someone has gone ahead and made them homosexual for their fanfic. --Ed Poor

I've removed out of character from the beginning of the article now (replacing it with "very frequently outside the canon of the source"), and mentioned it later on in explaining why some people don't like slash. While slash often does go out of character (at least in regard to the characters' sexuality), it's not the case in all fanfic (at least not these days, when we have Willow/Tara, etc.) and so the previous wording was inaccurate. And Ed, these things are a matter of degree: many slash fans consider that there are subtexts visible on screen (some recent examples I'm aware of: Buffy and Faith, Janeway and Seven of Nine, Chakotay and Paris). Some of these are reaching, but not all. --Bth

Bth, that addition to slash fiction doesn't strike me as encyclopedic. It sounds like you're talking about your reaction to netiquette problems on current online fanfic forums (e.g. Web sites, newsgroups). Content labeling of stories and what is considered "way out of the ordinary" are conventions local to particular forums. They might be suitable to mention (with examples) in an article about online publication or fan-publication, but they seem provincial here. --FOo

You're probably right. I was correcting the inaccurate "out of character" statement and got a bit carried away in describing the minutiae. On the other hand, it's a long way from being the only article with a similar level of "unencyclopedic" detail in the Wikipedia. What's really missing from that article is a discussion of the "slash is predominantly written by heterosexual women" phenomenon. --Bth

"Gen" is not merely about erotic relationships. Gen refers to the general universe in which a series takes place without any of the original characters or settings necessarily being present. Nu Ormenel was a genzine; a series of stories, poems and novels based entirely in the Klingon Empire. --Bluejay Young 10:52, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Can someone more informed than me add a bit on "fanon" - things which have been used so much in fan fiction that they have become accepted as part of the canon by most fans even though they were not part of the original show/book/whatever.

-- PMA

Take a look at Xena: Warrior Princess. It has hundred of fic, incluiding virtual seasons, I think it must be reflected in this article (my english is too bad to do it by myself ^_^U)

--Althea

Rewrote legal issues section. The previous version was somewhat misleading in that it asserted that fan fiction are almost never derivative works, which is not the case at all.

Roadrunner 20:37, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Is something being insinuated in regards to the mention of Douglas Adams? -Litefantastic 12:10, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The definition of fanfiction is wrong. Fanfiction is, by definition, done without permission. Unlicensed. Licensed Star Trek products are not fanfiction.

--Scott

Who are these "some" that have argued that the aeneid was the first work of fan fiction? That is absurd in the extreme. I think fan fiction doesn't really apply to famous works of fiction that are widely read and published. It is by definition amateur writing. Virgil was a professional. I propose that this phrase adds nothing to this article, and should be deleted. protohiro 06:55, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

OC's

I have shortened the insane definition of OC. Not only is much of it pointless, but it saying that orginal character is "closely related" to a self-insert/Mary Sue is stupid. Pata Hikari

Well, someone must have changed it again between you and I's edits, because I STILL had to re-edit it today for rather blatant bias (by the way, the OC is closely-related to a Mary Sue, in that most characters considered Mary Sues are in fact OCs. But I do get your meaning, because I had to edit a bit that sounded really biased and related to Mary Sues). It now reads: "An Original Character (OC) is a character originated by a fan author, as opposed to being a character who comes from the canon source. The label "OC" includes everything from bystanders, to minor characters, to major characters. Almost all characters in original fiction are OCs (save perhaps for historical figures), so the terms Original Character and OC have a completely different contextual meaning depending on whether one is speaking of original or fan fiction." ... which probably could still use a couple of tweaks, but is still less-biased than it was before. I also had to REALLY clean up the Mary Sue and Self-Insert sections, which instead of talking about facts about the concept, mostly just kept sounding defensive and in some places very biased (such as claiming that some people labeled characters that were't Mary Sues a Mary Sue. This is blatant bias; "Mary Sue" is a completely subjective term. I don't care how much consensus there is for a character being or not being a Sue, regardless of the character's characterization you SHOULD NOT state that a character is or is not something that is completely subjective for the reader). I fixed this as best I could while also elaborating on what is generally considered a "Mary Sue" by various groups. There is actually never complete consensus on any one character for the obvious reason that it's subjective, but those labeling a character a Mary Sue often do so for different reasons. And I have seen some people on Fanfiction.net especially who think it just meant the same thing as OC and that people who didn't like "Mary Sues" must just hate OCs or be really weird, which is why that portion was included in my edit. Mary Sue was probably the section most in need of editing and may still need a couple of tweaks here and there for it to be as good as it could be (I'm not sure if the final paragraph should be included in full or at all, or not - I leave that up to the Wikibeast to decide). I gave the following example: "Generally, if the character has a tragic-yet-romantic backstory, steals the heart of the hero who already had a canon paramour he was madly in love with, triumphs over (or redeems) the main villain, is exceptionally beautiful, and has many talents and skills at which she is exceptionally good, and is loved by all of the characters the reader is meant to find sympathetic, chances are extremely good that she'll be considered a Mary Sue." Which is a classic example that most people would agree is a "Mary Sue"... though I did note that it would be CONSIDERED one, most likely, not that it WAS one. Because again, one thing many people forget is that Mary Sue is a REALLY subjective term. One person's Mary Sue is another's "decent but underdeveloped" character. ;) I also hope that somebody keeps this section, even if they tweak it in later edits: "A common mistake (or misnomer, rather) is that of saying that a Mary Sue "has no flaws"; most characters that are called Mary Sues actually do have flaws. The problem most readers have with such characters is that the flaws seem to them to be either cliche (eating disorders, cutting, depression), badly-researched (see previous), not "real" or sympathetic-seeming (being embarassed because she's so beautiful she can never go anywhere without being stared at, for instance), too minor to balance out the overachieving aspects, or else simply melodramatically handled." Because it's worth noting; many people who write stories that I commonly see labeled "Mary Sue stories" argue that "she isn't flawless! She has flaws!", which leads to many a long arguement over whether or not being depressed counts as "a flaw", or a cheap attempt at drama. It's worth noting WHY people see these "flaws" as being not well-executed enough to redeem the character from their current form being a "Mary Sue". Cutting, eating disorders, and depression were all listed because those are very common trends in fanfiction in general, especially with the kinds of OCs that get labeled "Mary Sues". If you searched any one of them on Fanfiction.net (the largest archive for fanfiction online now), you'd get a huge number of hits, especially if you totaled them up cross-fandom instead of just searching one (though eating disorder might be trickier to search for, what with there being multiple keywords possible, but I bet if you searched for "anorexia" you'd get quite a few, as it's the most popular one. Probably because it simply involves starvation, not binging. Less gross, you see, and easier to romanticize or at least more bearable to write about). I really think the songfic section needs a serious tweak. I do not believe individual authors were sued; I think, if I recall, that they originally just sent cease-and-desist letters to the archives. In fact, it may have been some groups' suing the sites which provide lyrics and also get money from advertizing that prompted sites such as fanfiction.net to preemptively ban songfic. I really hope someone with clearer, more specific knowledge of that subject will go in and clean it up! 4.235.6.19 09:06, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Songfics

I removed the legal bits about fan fiction. That material is already covered in the article about FanFiction.Net and labelling something parody does not make it so. Fan fiction has no real solid legal precedent, let alone songfic. Claiming as true that which is unproven and legally dubious is not very credible. --PurplePopple 22:48, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of which, I do not believe, once again, that any authors were specifically sued. If so, who was sued? That section seriously needs help! That Fanfiction.net has "no real solid legal precedent" actually is not a bad thing, nor a good thing. It just means that it's currently a grey area that the law (in this case, primarily U.S. law) has not addressed yet, let alone at the level required for "precedent" (read: Supreme Court-level) to be actually set. It's also worth noting (as it is in Fanfiction.net's Wikipedia page) that Fanfiction.net always bans fanfic for stuff based on works by authors who do not want fanfic done of their work. They also have a tendency to usually ban anything else they think might get them in legal trouble; hence why songfic and MSTs are outlawed on the site (because each contains someone else's copyrighted material), and why RPF isn't allowed on Fanfiction.net anymore (they were afraid of musicians or actors suing). 4.235.6.19 09:16, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Psychology

Anyone want to put in some disscusion on the psychology of fanfiction? With sources of course. Why it's done, how it can lead to Mary Sues etc.

That really would constitute "original research" (albeit interesting OR). I did include a section in the Mary Sue edit about the claim I've seen many put out that every or nearly every writer starts out writing or wanting to write Mary Sues (every writer I've talked to has said they created at least one Sue during their childhood/early interest in writing), but it's merely a claim I've seen quite often, and is stated as such, as opposed to arguing for or against (though you may or may not want to tweak it). It would be interesting to note that mythology and folk tales are considered by some to be the early forms of "fan fiction", but that should be a side note in the History section, at best, IMO. 4.235.6.19 09:20, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

crossover and songfic fan fiction

I'd like to point something out, here, before somebody tries to do this again: in the list of methods of setting up crossover stories, somebody put in the following:

A story about the Legend of Zelda people joining forces with Final Fantasy VII that Link and Cloud Strife might have join forces to defeat Ganondorf and Sephiroth

Right before:

Having the story itself be AU, with the two (or more) stories' characters already existing in the story in the same universe, and initiating a contact through the introduction of a conflict or chance meeting; examples might include having the Doctor from Doctor Who landing the TARDIS in the middle of Middle Earth, or Tru Davies from Tru Calling running into Harry Potter while on a trip to England.

Which made no grammatical sense, and did not even fit. The list was not made as a list of examples of crossover, but the most common methods for setting one up. Two very different things. Additionally, there were already examples of crossovers following different methods of setup included, usually two examples per point; if you really want to include more examples of crossover, do it in the main article for it, which is linked from the fan fiction page, please. Adding MORE references just makes the page unnecessarily long. Anyway, please don't do it in THAT LIST, because that specific list is for, once again, methods of setting a crossover up, not actual examples of potential crossovers. Which, coincidentally, means that this:

Sonic the Hedgehog joining forces with Crash Bandicoot to defeat Dr. Eggman and Dr. Neo Cortex.

should never have been tacked on to the end of the list, as it wasn't the kind of thing (method methods of setting up crossovers) that the list was made for. I did add a bit about how crossovers frequently include characters teaming up or facing off, but NOT on that list, since that isn't a general method to set up for the actual crossover in line with the kind of examples also given on the list, it's the method to set up the conflict or plot of the fic in question, which is something rather different. -R 63.21.13.191 00:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

There are many fanfic sites on the Internet devoted to these specific types of fanfic (especially crossovers). Links should be provided.

-Klea

FanFiction.Net's policy change and the effect of the Cease & Desists sent to German and Indian lyric sites should also be noted in conjunction with SongFic. As for Crossovers, some dates for consideration relating to this genre: 1979: The Network, the British Man from U.N.C.L.E. fanzine, is one of the first crossovers in fan fiction. 1979: A Trek/Man from U.N.C.L.E. is one of the second known crossovers in fan fiction. 1984: The Future Tense Affair, an early Star Trek/Man from U.N.C.L.E. crossover, is written by Chong. 1994: On January 13, Like a Shepherd, possibly first piece of X-Files fan fiction, posted to the Internet. It was a Forever Knight/X-Files crossover. It was written by Lisa Payne. 1994: On May 24, Beyond the Sea Monster by Gail Celio was posted. It was probably the third piece of X-Files fan fiction posted to the Net. It was a humorous piece and an X-Files/Scooby Doo crossover. 1998 to 2000: WPAdmirer writers her Chicago series, an ER/X-Files cross over that was influential in ER slashy circles.

-- PurplePopple 12:14 14 May 2005 (CST)

"FanFiction.Net's policy change and the effect of the Cease & Desists sent to German and Indian lyric sites should also be noted in conjunction with SongFic. " I thought so! So it wasn't specific authors being sued. Somebody should seriously edit that section. Right now, I have to get ready for bed, so I can't do it, but somebody doesn't, I'll have to! Generally, the providers of content to archive sites aren't the ones who are sued; it's the archives themselves, first, who get C&D letters. 4.235.6.19 09:23, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

There were many crossovers much earlier than that. When Nimoy starred on Mission: Impossible beginning in 1969, the fans wrote crossovers where the Trek and Mission characters met for some reason. One in particular had to do with Paris (Nimoy's character) helping to locate things that Spock needed to fix his time-traveling shuttlecraft. In the course of the story it was implied that Paris was one of Spock's ancestors, through Amanda. This was a favourite theme in fanfiction of the pre-slash era.

You might want to take a look at http://www.crossovers.net/makeitgoaway/STused.htm for early Trekzines exemplifying the earliest days of Trekfic and crossover. Dr. Who seems to have been very popular, not surprisingly. --Bluejay Young 11:50, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

historical instances of fan fiction

To what degree can apocryphal stories about folklore or historical or religious events/stories be called fan fiction? I’m sorry if that came out a little funny, but is there such a thing as pre-20th century fan fiction? Just an interesting perspective, but since time immemorial, humans have been listening to stories told by other people and then retelling them, often with various changes and embellishments.

One example with which I am farmiliar is the midrashim (singular: midrash) of Jewish culture, which are sometimes stories about or relating to biblical charaters. In other words, bible fanfics. -Micha 21:29, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ever read the Gospels of the Infancy?

Infancy Gospel of James Infancy Gospel of Thomas --Bluejay Young 10:36, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Other pre-20th century fan fiction includes the Brontë juvenilia, which was a huge body of work written by Charlotte Brontë, her sisters and brother. It was RP fiction about the Duke of Wellington and his sons Charles and Arthur. I have put a reference to that in the article. --Bluejay Young 10:36, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

What is the operating definition of fan fiction? Because the definition that people seem to be offering is that anything can be fan fiction and at that point, the distinction becomes totally meaningless and fan fiction becomes a part of the rest of literature, lacking any distinctness as a genres. - PurplePoppl 12:12, 14 May 2005 (CST)

I'm adding a summary of another view I've heard--that fanfic is the latest incarnation of amateur storytelling, rather than either a completely new phenomenon or exactly the same as mainstream literature. If anyone objects, please remove it and explain the objection here. -KKM 9:00 PM CST, May 28 '05

I think that's exactly what it is. --Bluejay Young 10:36, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

How is fanfiction just a new incarnation of amateur storytelling?

It's not. Fanfiction is a story based on the work of SOMEONE ELSE. You take something someone else created, and you do something else with it yourself. Usually it's amateur fiction, and there a lot of people out there that say that stuff that's officially sanctioned from the get-go such as novels based on Buffy or Stargate, do not count as fanfiction, because the writer was hired. But the one part of the definition that NEVER changes is that it is a DERIVITIVE WORK. In this sense, a lot of early folk tales and myths can be considered fan fiction if they're retellings with differences from the original versions. Additionally, I would consider any story, televised or novel, no matter what, any story that features characters whose origins do not lie in that author's head as a form of fan fiction. Hercules: The Legendary Journeys was every bit as much a fanfic to me as "Darth Vader at Hogwarts" is (if it hadn't been a hero from actual Greco-Roman myths, it would not be, but it really is just another version of the same character and same stories, with a bunch of embellishments). Again - fanfic by definition must be directly derivitive of another's previous work. 4.235.6.19 09:32, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Fan Fiction: "a fictional account written by a fan of a show, movie, book, or video game to explore themes and ideas that will not or cannot be explored via the originating medium; also written fan fiction, also called fanfic"

Take it or leave it. Colonel Marksman 17:10, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Wha?

Can someone explain to me how the Aenid is fanfic? That makes no sense. That would be like saying Oedipus is fanfic because it involves the Egyptian Sphinx. Mythologies sometimes merge and overlap, esp those of two cultures where one assimilated the other (Rome doing so to Greece). All he was showing was the lineage of the Roman empire. Sorry...but I think that section should be removed, unless someone can explain this theory better, and provide bibliographical text that agrees with it.

Text was (has been removed by 12.25.87.58 who documented it above).

Some have argued that Virgil's epic poem, The Aeneid, was the first work of fan fiction, based on Homer's Odyssey. In it, a Trojan named Aeneas leads a group of Refugees after the fall of the city to find a new homeland, eventually founding Rome.

I remember reading that paragraph and viewing it more as amusing than historical. It seems to say that Virgil took characters and settings from Homer's great works (which he did) and added on to them. If this was done as homage to Homer then I suppose it would, by stretching the definition, count as fanfic, but it is really a stretch. There are a number of problems with considering it fan fiction. (The paragraph does sort of explain the concept of fan_fiction, but mainly if you already know what it means). RJFJR 17:38, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC) Hey, 12.25.87.58, have you considered getting a logon so we can refer to you by name instead of just number?

After hearing your explanation, it could definitely be the first recorded instance of fanfic, in the very loosest sense. He used someone else's characters, and "added on to them", it sounds like fanfic. - "R" 4.235.6.19 09:35, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Something weird just happened

I just responded to 12.25.87.58's comment at heading Wha? but now when I go back to the history for this talk page I don't see the revision where he posted it. Is this lag from the edit not getting sent to the mirror server yet? RJFJR 17:48, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)

Now it's back. Either it was lag or entering that edit to ask what it was fixed it. RJFJR 17:51, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)

Not really-

[quote] It seems to say that Virgil took characters and settings from Homer's great works (which he did) and added on to them. [/quote]

Since the Roman empire had a shared mythology with Greece, the heros mentioned in Homer's Iliad were probably also Roman hereos by a similiar name. Besides, Homer didn't create the characters nor the story of the sacking of Troy. He just wrote about it in a brilliant way. That would be like saying the New Testmant is a work of Fanfic from the Torah.

The Odyssey is fantasy-ified historical fiction (relgion-ified historical fiction?). ;) Considering even today, there is such a thing as RPF (Real Person Fic), which is fiction stories about real people, I think historical fiction that includes fictionalized versions of historical figures can count as a form of fanfiction in the strictest technical sense.

The New Testament... I thought that was the sequel, though? ;) - "R" 4.235.6.19 09:39, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Why are certain wikilinks bold?

This makes no sense to me: I've never seen this used in this fashion before. Does anyone have an expanation? Otherwise, I'm unbolding them. Ambush Commander 22:37, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

I say go for it. :) -drmike

Role Playing

There's plenty of Star Wars, Gundam Wing, etc Role-playing sites out there. Do you suppose we should mention role playing of copyrighted stuff in fan fiction? It's sort of the same thing... -Cookiemobsta

No, it's not really the same thing. It's related, in that it's usually done by fans, and involves creating a new story based on another story or setting... but roleplaying requires more than one person. Fan fiction does not. Additionally, fan fiction is closer to being pure literature; text-format roleplaying is more of a melding of literature and gaming. You might want to mention it in a brief aside, but I wouldn't elaborate too much on it in this article, as it's considered a different subject entirely by most people. Coincidetentally, please, people - sign your stuff with four tildes, so we know who posted what when! - R 63.21.2.196 02:27, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Timelines

Somebody recently added a bunch of timelines. There's some interesting information there, but it's a bit repetitive; there are some repeated entries in the timelines, and in addition, the same person has posted some of them as independent pages as well, duplicating the same content. Some trimming and consolidation would make sense. *Dan* 01:35, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Possibly we could put the major fandoms (Star Wars, Harry Potter...) in their own articles and put the appropriate timelines there. SujinYH 14:17, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The first entry has an item published a year before it was written. I know nothing about the material to correct it. (GLD)

All of the timelines have inconsistent tenses, poor grammar, misleading phrasing, and misspelled names. A few examples:
-"Rareslash" is attributed to both "Sofie Werkers" and "Sofie Werkes", and sometimes called "Rare Slash".
-The sentence “Letters over the Sea,” one of the first pieces of slash published to the Internet and one of the more influential stories in the Lord of the Rings slash community, was published. should be rephrased to say that it was one of the first LotR slash pieces posted, not one of the first slash pieces in general (I am assuming this is what the sentence was supposed to be saying).
-Several events are listed without mention of the fandom to which they belong.
-One could argue that the several mentions of Rescue Rangers fanfic are not necessarily vital to this article. Alama 12:52, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

The timelines are significantly lacking in content about anime/manga fandoms. It would probably be wise to correct this as well. -anon 19:38, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I have added a few words about the alleged existence of real person fiction starring Paul Darrow. For various reasons too complicated to go into, there was a rumour of such stories' existence during the late 80s and early 90s, but no such story was ever proved to have existed, and fans around at the time looked hard. --88.110.104.194 20:31, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Another type of fanfic: conversion fic?

I'm considering adding another type of fanfic: "conversion" fic, in which a religious OC (usually fairly Sue-ish) goes and converts all the characters (or all of the author's favorite characters) to his or her religious beliefs (usually some kind of literalist Protestantism) in order to save them (and/or the readers) from hell. I know fics like this exist for Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings, but they certainly aren't as common as the other categories listed, and I don't know whether or not they exist in other fandoms. I'd really appreciate others' comments! -KKM 9:00 PM CST, May 28 '05

Never heard of them. Haven't seen them really in Star Trek or other communities to have it really defined as its own genre... --PurplePopple 21:46, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Conversion fics tend to be looked down upon as unrealistic at best. They probably aren't worth a mention. --Densetzu No Gaizen 9:17 PM EST, 11 Mar 2006

We're mentioning Mary Sues, though. I think if we reorder the breakdown, and prehaps have subsub categories there could be a place for it in a section discussing original characters. Conversion fic OCs certainly have a different MO to Mary Sues. -- RoseWill 22:09, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Mary Sues are a much more common phenomenon, but I will say that I HAVE seen quite a few Conversion Fics on Fanfiction.net. No, they're not as common as the massively-popular genres of Slash, Crossover, AU, Pairing, etc. (which by the way, are not as specific or limiting, which is probably part of why they happen more often in comparision), but there are quite a few around, especially on Fanfiction.net. All Christian, from what I've seen, though who knows, there could be one for Islam, Judaism, Wicca or Buddhism somewhere. Perhaps this very brief (for a small phenomenon, of course): "Conversion Fic refers to stories in which one character converts one or more other characters to a religion, usually a form of Christianity." Technically correct, short but sweet, wouldn't take up too much room on the page, and it covers that particular base, as it were. What do you think? I think it's a phenomenon I'm seeing more and more often, and that it's worth a mention, but, not a long one. That would fit the bill, IMO. -"R" 4.235.6.19 09:48, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Real Person Fic

Does "Real Person Fic" in general, and the rules conerning it at fanfiction.net in particular, include even the casual mention of real world people? Memenen 02:08, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Casual mention, or dropping real people's names in a story, is usually thought of as a cute joke or device (known in science fiction as Tuckerism) as opposed to an all-out story. Are the rules at fanfiction.net now assumed to apply across the board? RPFs, in my view, are things like the Brontë juvenilia (reams of RPF about the Duke of Wellington and his kids) or the stories that have come off of the actual historical events behind the Romance of the Three Kingdoms. --Bluejay Young 12:09, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Fanfiction.net forbids using real people (including oneself) as characters; the use of real people OTHER than oneself in a story counts as RPF. Mentioning JK Rowling does not count; writing a story in which she features as character, however, would. Hope that helps. -"R" 4.235.6.19 09:51, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

MSTings

Does anyone else think there should a mentioning of MSTings or at least a link to the MSTing Wikipedia article?--68.228.190.177 04:02, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

family fiction

This fanfic website mentions "family fic". What is family fic? Memenen 14:38, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't see any reference to that term on the page you linked. *Dan* 22:12, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

At the start of the second paragraph, "My stories so far are vignettes of varying lengths and are primarily MSR and/or what has come to be called Family Fic." --Memenen 22:18, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

OK, I see it... for some reason my browser's search-in-page function failed on this. *Dan* 22:21, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

Family fic is to write a fan fiction story about a character which shows his involvement with his family. For instance, a story about Hermione Granger going home for the holidays and what her mom, dad and home life are like. Or Harry Potter's grandchildren. Or all those stories about Spock's relationship with his parents. --Bluejay Young 10:43, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry but...

It really bothers me to see fanfiction.net get so much attention here. The subject is fanfiction, not fanfiction.net. All that garbage needs to be in a subject called fanfiction.net, not fanfiction. Just because it's just one of the sites that hosts fanfiction does not mean it needs to be promoted here like it is. drmike

I think the FFNet timeline belongs in the Fanfiction.net article, not here. Its author actually posted it in two different places (neither of them really being the proper one), here and as its own article (which is currently facing vote for deletion, and seems to be headed for being merged with the FFNet article). As for the other references to FFNet, it does deserve some mention in the general history of fan fiction, but it's debatable exactly how much. *Dan* 22:17, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

Anyone who has useful fanfic information that is being excluded from Wikipedia can post it at the Fiction wikicity. Memenen 22:24, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Timeline moved to the Fanfiction.net article. Sorry but I was catching a bus last night and caught that right at the end. --Drmike 15:25, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Timeline (1950?)

I have removed the timeline section from the article. Can someone explain why it says there were mailing lists and ".net" websites back in 1950? - Tεx τ urε 18:19, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It actually was giving stats by year of birth, so it wasn't claiming there were online things in 1950, just that people born then were using them. (Though, I think some ArpaNet digests and Usenet groups existed by the late 1970s, so some of that stuff has been around longer than the newbies think.) *Dan* 19:27, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

Usenet didn't come around till the 1980. The first Star Trek Usnet group was founded by Roger Noe in 1980. There was some fan fiction posted at that time but it wasn't much. Real Internet based fan fiction didn't start to begin really until 1983 or 1984 after some one at, I believe it was Media West, gave a demonstration of Usenet and informed zinesters that people were beginning to use Usenet as a means of fannish communication and sharing of stories. Usenet really didn't begin to take off fannishly till 1985 or so though. There was a lot of restructing at various points...

Following that up, the chart is showing YEAR OF BIRTH. It isn't a timeline of anything but rather giving an idea as to the ages of people in various fan ficiton communities. Age isn't really a good indicator because the next year, those dates are out of date, where as year of birth stays constant. --PurplePopple 21:12, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Showing the year of birth of the founder is too confusing. It should be the year the thing was founded -- that's what most people expect to see. All you have to do is mention in the body of the article that fan writers are men and women of all ages -- not just immature kids.

The timelines are far too lengthy and will be of little or no interest to anyone who is not involved in the fan communities in question. If I'm not mistaken, many of these timelines appear on the pages which are referenced in the reference section, especially fanfiction.net. --Bluejay Young 10:32, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Does "Media West" = MediaWest?

"Slash was discussed at a panel at Media West." According to this webpage there was no MediaWest convention in 1980. Does "Media West" = MediaWest? --Memenen 23:10, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Anyone higher up the chain at Media West feel free to correct me. Yes, Media West = MediaWest. You would have to go to the official website at Http://www.mediawestcon.org to find out when exactly Media West started to be called that but I know it wasn't back in 1980. I don't think it was called Media West until 1982 or '83.Auntie A. 04:26, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Canon

Is fan fiction canonical when it comes to the original film, novel or whatever original work of fiction? Scorpionman 02:06, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Fan fiction is fan derived works and as a rule, noncanonical. There are rare exceptions. Kyaa the Catlord 14:48, 5 December 2005 (UTC)