Talk:List of films considered the best/Archive 1

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This is discussion prior to the vote on deleting the article. Most of the discussion is not relevant to the current version.

Pre Vfd discussion

"**Star Wars: phenomenally popular 1977 science fiction adventure is credited with creating the concept of the event movie and voted top film by Channel 4 viewers in the UK; the 1997 "special edition", it should be noted, is widely considered inferior." by everyone except George Lucas. --cuiusquemodi 03:07, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)

Haha...I like how Titanic is on both lists! Adam Bishop 04:07, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Personally I would remove both Titanic and Gone With The Wind, I certainly don't consider them very good. I would add It's a Wonderful Life to the list, but that is just me. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo-stick 21:44, Aug 31, 2003 (UTC)
If you want to add it, go ahead!
Your subjectivity here is a reason that List of movies that are famous for being widely considered extremely good isn't a good encyclopedia page. However I think it is an interesting, quirky, and funny page, so I'm not going to list it on VfD. Lypheklub 23:02, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I removed Stalingrad, Metropolis, and Das Boot. Not to say these are not great films but there was no evidence for there inclusion present. Try to find some support e.g. "In 199x Das Boot was voted best film of all time by the readers of Der Speigel," or "Noted critic ---- considers Metropolis to be the greatest film before WWII." - SimonP 13:08, Oct 20, 2003 (UTC)

I disagree with the page move. "List of movies that have been considered the greatest ever" is more vague than the previous title, and could include any movie that has ever been considered the greatest, by anyone at any time. Tuf-Kat 16:21, Oct 21, 2003 (UTC)

I think the new title is much more specific, there are many thousands of films that are considered extremely good, while only a few have been regarded as the greatest ever by recognized authorities. - SimonP 16:37, Oct 21, 2003 (UTC)
Well, I disagree (for the record). Tuf-Kat 07:14, Oct 23, 2003 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with Pulp Fiction being rated as one of the best films for its influence on modern film. A Clockwork Orange beats it in content, cinematography, and social influcence and was released 25+ years earlier.

No matter how much we all dislike Titanic, I do think it has one of the stronger cases for being considered the greatest ever:

  • It is tied for most Academy awards ever (and for most Americans the Oscars are still the foremost evaluator of good films)
  • It is the highest grossing film of all time, and had the most people go to see it in theaters around the world, and popular acclaim has to be included in any measure of greatness.
  • It made more money than any other film. If you ask the people at Fox or Paramount they would certainly rank it as the greatest.

-SimonP 23:44, Oct 22, 2003 (UTC)~

I think, in general, the very vocal "Titanic Sucks" minority is a response to the fact that many people DO think it was a very good film. Lirath Q. Pynnor

Wasn't Cleopatra (the Liz Taylor version) regarded as the greatest (most ambitious, at least in production cost) movie ever in its time? Luis Dantas

This is always going to be a bit subjective but; I was really surprised to see Titanic in this list. In my opinion it really was a dreadful screenplay with very mediocre acting by an average cast. The fact that it got a lot of oscars was because it was big Hollywood movie in an otherwise lean year. Anyone else like to remove it ? Julianp 06:30, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Also, while I've got my orange box out, why are there no David Lean films here? I would thought that 'Lawrence of Arabia' and possibly 'Dr Zhivago' warranted an entry. Julianp 06:30, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Shouldn't we list The Day The Earth Stood Still under the Science-Fiction header? Paul Soth

There seems to be many important great movies (mostly foreign) missing from this list. A few missing greats that quickly jump out at me are THE RULES OF THE GAME (on the top of several lists), THE GRAND ILLUSION, THE BATTLE OF ALGIERS, TOUCH OF EVIL (the restored version), RASHAMON. I think this list should be as international as possible. --Samuel Wantman 10:23, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

I have added La Regle de Jeu (Rules of the Game) by Jean Renoir. Using the discussions of other films as I guide I went looking for documentation for its inclusion on this list. Along with Battleship Potemkin is the only film listed 6 times on Sight and Sound magazine best films of all time polls (http://www.filmsite.org/sightsound.html), and higher up on the lists than Potemkin. This makes it the historically second higheset rated film on that poll after Citizen Kane. It is also # 2 on the Village Voice list [[1]]. Unfortunately, this film is not seen by many people outside of film classes (which is where I first saw it). --Samuel Wantman 20:11, 29 May 2004 (UTC)


I'd agree with Julianp here that Titanic has no real place on this list, and including the Lord Of The Rings trilogy makes the whole thing laughable. No-one except Tolkien fans (and then only those who appreciated Jackson's adaptation) would ever dream of putting it in such lofty company as Battleship Potemkin and Citizen Kane. If we're going to include every film that wins a truckload of Oscars, we'll end up with a list of highest-grossing hypes, which isn't (or shouldn't be) the same thing.

I know this is controversial, so for the moment I've left the main list alone. Some of the descriptive sentences in the "Films that are considered among the greatest in their particular genre" list, however, were blatantly POV: "The martial arts film starring the genre's greatest star, Bruce Lee", ..."is still, by objective critics, regarded as cinema's greatest achievement in propaganda" (objectivity is subjective in this instance). I've nipped and tucked these a little, but some meat should be added to phrases like "The 1970s film of this genre with its profound political cyncism", and "The independent horror film", which make it sound as if no other film of that type had ever been made (at this point, the majority of horror films are probably produced independently, and many noirs are politically cynical. Similarly, describing Blazing Saddles simply as "the American parody film" isn't much use. I know fuller information about each film can be found on their respective pages, but let's try to pique the reader's interest at least. I've also changed All Quiet On The Western Front from "the first major anti war film" to "the first major American anti-war film". Let's remember we're talking about a worldwide phenomenon.

I'd also suggest that 2001: A Space Odyssey deserves to be on the main list, in addition to its current place on the Science Fiction list.--Chips Critic 14:48, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

Despite what you, I, and most other movie fans might wish the Oscars are the world's best known film awards and one of the most popular measures of film quality. Just because we might think the three that have won the most Oscars are not great does not mean they should be excluded. There are many definitions of film greatness (box office gross is certainly one) and each should be represented on the list. - SimonP 20:29, 29 May 2004 (UTC)


Vfd: List_of_movies_that_have_been_considered_the_greatest_ever

Same as above. Wyllium 01:44, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

  • Everything from "Films that are considered among the greatest in their particular genre" onwards is almost entirely POV. Delete unless fixed. -Sean 01:58, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
    • Unless the article provides the famous movie critics (several per movie) who said it, when and where, this seems almost impossible to fix. Wyllium 02:04, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
  • Absolutely keep. See above. RADICALBENDER★ 02:07, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. This one does contain some perfectly valid and well referenced facts. A lot of it is also arguably true, such as e.g. The Seventh Seal being considered, and note that it's about being considered, the greatest Swedish movie. Of course, it can be argued that what's "considered" is not encyclopedic material. Non-factual bits should be deleted. As with the worst-ever list, opinions attributed to notable people and publications are valid for inclusion. Fredrik 02:13, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete as above, but this one is slightly better. However, such a list is inherently POV and should not be kept. Guanaco 02:32, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep! Similar reasons as above. There are simply widely-acknowledged "all time great" movies, and it's nice to have them collected like this. A title change might be nice, however. VV 03:05, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Acegikmo1 03:11, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
  • I agree with the folks that argue that there are some movies that are simply widely-acknowledged as great or exceptional. However, who's to say what is and what isn't widely-acknowledged. This article and its sister above are both inherently POV. And that just simply cannot work on Wikipedia. This is an encyclopædia; we've no room for opinions in the articles. DELETE. blankfaze | ♫ 03:18, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
    • P.S. - what is with everyone lately? it's like all of the sudden everyone just stopped following VfD protocol. none of the articles listed on today or yesterday have MediaWiki messages for the debates. how odd.
      • See the footer. Wyllium 03:32, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
        • Oh. Well that's a good reason. I wonder what the reason is for the change. blankfaze | ♫ 04:22, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
          • See list of changes in new Wiki version. Wyllium 04:41, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
            • To provide a less cryptic response: MediaWiki 1.3 handles edit conflicts much more gracefully than the older version did. Which means VfD won't grind to a halt even with everyone editing it directly (or at least it isn't supposed to). -- Cyrius|✎ 06:07, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Fascinating article, encyclopedic and accurate. Much room for improvement, yes, especially who says? type info, but that's not a reason for deletion. Andrewa 11:46, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
  • Another obvious keep, see above listing. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 11:58, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
  • Agree with Pete, again; keep. James F. (talk) 12:06, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
  • delete. Exploding Boy 12:15, May 30, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep, as above. Lord Bob 17:01, May 31, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep Abigail 00:07, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep, this is much better done than its worst ever counterpart siroxo 00:13, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete - Tεxτurε 17:04, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep, and encourage everyone to document their edits, not just add personal favorites --Samuel Wantman 08:11, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
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