Talk:Palmdale, California/Archive 1

An anonymous user added considerable material to the Rambot article. Much of the addition was plagiarized from the copyrighted website of the Palmdale Main Library (for example, the History section at http://www.palmdalelibrary.org/history/part2.shtml). Some other things were just silly, like the statement that Palmdale, with a current population of 135,515, "is expected to become the second largest city (Los Angeles-1st) in California and 3rd largest in the United States within the next couple decades." There may be a little bit of wheat in with all this chaff, but I can't sort it out and so have reverted the whole thing. JamesMLane 16:22, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

information

The information previously given is true and correct.

The information posted in the history section was from the city public library and is available for public use. The city does not copyright facts about it's history as long as they are not altered to reflect inaccuracies. As a matter of fact, the city wants accurate information available about itself abroad due to the poor, biased, inaccurate implications given to it by the entertainment media and others. Therefore, it is not plagiarism. I am a journalist and I know the definition.

And as far as criticizing the statement about the city's growth, that statement is true to fact. It is "expected" to have a population of "over 2 million by 2030 and over 3 million by 2040", therefore by today's current ranking's would place the city at second largest in California only to Los Angeles, and third largest in the U.S. because Chicago is currently shrinking, which was specifically written.

As far as the things to do,, general information, places to stay and eat, how to get there, airports, suburb listings, and giving websites of additional resources, there was nothing wrong with writing that at all. (AAA Tour Book lists them, Los Angeles Almanac lists them, and the city website lists them.)

And as of the 2004 city estimate, the current population is 135,575. (www.aveconomy.org - antelopevalleyguide.com)

I live there and you don't. I know what is and what isn't. I know the mayor and the city council. I know the state representative as well. I frequently look at the city website and newspaper. I also look at chamber of commerce site as well. Where do you get your information from? History is fact and therefore cannot be plagiarized, especially from a website that is controlled by a publicly owned entity. 2+2 is 4. It's a fact. It cannot be copyrighted. If you would like to know the truth about the matter, look it up on the city's website and others. www.cityofpalmdale.org - antelopevalleyguide.com - www.palmdalechamber.org - www.palmdalelibrary.org

Revision.

I have revised it by eliminating the statement about it's projected growth (even though I have it in print in a book).

To make you happy, I have also eliminated the "history" section which I cut and pasted from the city's public library website pending direct approval from the city to use the information. If not, then I'll research and rewrite it in my own words.

The rest of the information is true and correct as it stands.

I did not revise the demographic information on median incomes this time, even though the city's website has different information, which I used to correct it the first time. (2000 US Census states median income at approx. $46000, the city says it's approx. $73000 - who's right?) I left it alone.

I encourage constructive criticism, but please allow me to be the one to edit information on my hometown. I live there. I know it better than someone who lives somewhere else. If there is something you question, write about it. I'll answer it. All of my information comes from books and local websites.

Thank You

Response

Right now I don't have time to go over your comments and changes in detail. I'll mention just a few points:

1. Wikipedia has its own policies, established procedures, etc. Some of them are different from what you're probably used to. That's why I didn't simply revert all your edits, but took the time to explain what I was doing.
2. The Palmdale Library website page from which you lifted big chunks of copy verbatim has this notice at the bottom: "Copyright © 2002 by the Palmdale City Library, Palmdale, California. All rights reserved." Therefore, you err when you imply that this text is not subject to copyright. Furthermore, your understanding of copyright law is completely wrong. As an oversimplification: You can copyright words and pictures. You cannot copyright facts or ideas. Therefore, while you're correct that facts aren't copyrighted, a particular text that presents those facts is. Or do you think a newspaper would be allowed to take an AP news story and run it in the paper without paying AP? Although I admit I'm not a journalist, my basis for commenting is that I'm a lawyer. In fact, I used to represent AP, which is why I use that example. If some newspaper were to follow your view of copyright law with regard to an AP story, my former colleagues would soon set them straight.
3. If you know people in city government, and you think they want their promotional material circulated (as is certainly plausible), get the city or the library or whatever entity has the copyright to release it for this purpose. Note that it's not enough for the owner to release it for a one-shot Wikipedia use; it must be licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License. If you want to contact them to request the license, you'll find helpful suggested language at Wikipedia:Boilerplate request for permission.
4. You write, "please allow me to be the one to edit information on my hometown." In a word, No. Wikipedia is a completely open project. Anyone may edit any article, regardless of who lives where or who has what professional degree or who first wrote the text. It's probably nothing like any other writing environment you've worked in. Once you post something here, you no longer "own" it. You have to be prepared to see your copy edited mercilessly. Look at the Page History for any popular article, such as City of New York or Los Angeles, California, and you'll see how many different people get involved in editing.
5. You didn't improve your general credibility as a contributor when, for example, you edited the article on Jacksonville, Florida to say that the Panthers are based there. I'm not a hockey fan, and even I knew that was wrong. JamesMLane 08:03, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Revision

1. 1 The other revised information that was placed in the was not under copyright, only the history section was and permission is currently pending from the city to use that information. I just want the complete truth out there about my hometown. As a lawyer, you should know what should be written then. I was just trying to mimic the type of information given about other cities of similar size and stauts. I.E. Salt Lake City, Orlando, Richmond, etc... even 75,000 pop. Wilmington, NC.

1. 2 Florida Panthers - I realized that after I submitted it, but it was already changed by the time I went back to correct it. They play in Ft. Lauderdale. However, the statement that Jacksonville is Florida's largest city and the largest city in the South is correct. Jacksonville is another city that gets slighted in its importance. Ask anyone who the largest city in Florida is and you will almost always get Miami or Tampa as the answer. Ask anyone what the largest city in the South is and they'll say Atlanta, even though Jacksonville, Memphis, Charlotte, Nashville, and New Orleans are bigger. Just like Palmdale, it does not get the recognition that it deserves as a large independent city held on it's own. People don't realize that there is 40 miles of absolutely nothing between Palmdale and Los Angeles. They don't even touch. Just the San Gabriel Mountains are there. For that matter, you might as well include Bakersfield and San Luis Obispo too as suburbs using that logic. San Jose is another city just the same who always plays second fiddle to San Francisco, even though it is the larger city and has a better economy. Fresno always plays second fiddle to Sacramento. The statemtent that Fresno was the fastest growing city of America's 50 largest came from http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/ci/?id=102328. Las Vegas recently took that position because Las Vegas only recently became a top 50 city. In 2000, it wasn't.

1. 3 You state that you currently do not have time now to "go through and sort" through the information... do you intend to gather what you think is appropriate and repost it?

Discussion

This article reads more like a commercial for Palmdale than an actual encyclopedia entry. Including one or two of the most important travel spots would be OK, but that entry is more suited for WikiTravel. Also, the "Places to Stay" entry is just ridiculous. Those are the same franchises available in any city with a population of 30k or more. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Palmdale is simply not an important city, it's just another desert city experiencing unprecendented population gain from the multitudes of aging baby boomers fleeing the cold North for the hot golf courses of the desert. Also, I'm seriously doubting that Barstow (and most of the other cities listed) is a "suburb" of Palmdale. It's over 80 miles away. In addition, I am removing the part saying that Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and Northrop Grumman are based in Palmdale. The headquarters of Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and Northrop Grumman are located in Chicago, Bethesda MD, and Los Angeles, respectively. Anyway, I would advise removing most of the obviously self-aggrandizing material in this entry. --Kukuman 22:30, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I agree with you, but having gotten rid of some of the garbage, I felt I'd devoted enough time to Palmdale. The article still needs major cleaning up. JamesMLane 22:47, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Mr. Lane, I'd be glad to clean the article up as my time permits. Please see my note in your user page for more info.

As for Kukuman's comments, as a native of the Antelope Valley (AV) who is older than the incorporated city of Palmdale (but not the town of Palmdale!), I'll say:

• Yes, it presently reads as a promotional piece.

• Thankfully, the detailed descriptions on each and every place to stay are now gone.

• Actually, there is no aging baby boomer influx to Palmdale. The average age of its residents is 28. Lancaster, its northern neighbor, does have some influx of seniors, but nothing huge.

• The chief reason for people coming to Palmdale to live is because of its housing affordability vis a vis eastern Ventura County, the San Fernando Valley, South Bay, and San Gabriel Valley. The tradeoff is the time consuming commute to the Los Angeles basin to get to work and back home again. I, being a neighbor of Palmdale's, don't see too many "Rust Belt" types moving in - though we would welcome them very much.

• I totally agree - Barstow isn't a suburb of Palmdale. Furthermore, according to the US Census Bureau, there is no Palmdale metro area. The whole of the Mojave Desert California area population might be about 700,000 or so as our anon writer stated, but neither the Antelope Valley nor the Mojave Desert will ever approach the population numbers of the non-AV portion of Los Angeles County. Not enough water. Lots of land, of course. . . I'm old enough to have seen lots of real estate speculation here, and there have been two downturns so far in my lifetime. I've heard all the hoopla, and am more realistic as to what will happen developmentwise. I still remember the proposed Palmdale Intercontinental Airport (as reported on page 1 of the Los Angeles Times in 1966). Of course right now there is no passenger air service from that facility. LA still calls the shots.

• Regarding Lockheed, Boeing, and Northrop: the wrong word was used. "Based" implies headquartered, and that's certainly not the case. But do these companies have major facilities and activities here? Absolutely! Lockheed also has its famed "Skunk Works" at Site 10 at Plant 42 near Sierra Highway and Avenue P.

Looking at my thoughts above, I think you may see as I incorporate these changes into the article in due time, it will be a more balanced and factual piece than it is at present. Please let me know your thoughts. Postings are welcome at my discussion page. Thanks, and Happy Trails! --avnative 00:46, Aug 1, 2004 (UTC)

I was wondering whether there really was a Palmdale Metropolitan Area... it seemed like the cities listed as "suburbs" were too far out to be considered suburbs but I can't really tell just by looking at a map. --Kukuman 03:35, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Wonder no more, K. There isn't, and probably never will be. LA is just too big and near enough, Ridgecrest is in a valley of its own - the Indian Wells Valley, Bakersfield is on the other side of the Tehachapis, and Victorville and Barstow are too far away to the east and northeast. As a result, we are "captured" into the LA US Census data for metropolitan compilations.

On a more humorous note, I've heard it said that Palmdale is a "far suburb" of LA. Given the traffic conditions on certain days (fires, accidents, rain, etc.) it can be said it's easier to reach Las Vegas from Palmdale - timewise - than the usual LA work locations on those certain days. (The ride from LA areas back to Palmdale also tends to take longer than the morning commute). So does that make Las Vegas a far suburb of Palmdale (or vice versa)? Noooooo. . . But the travel time anecdotal angle is an interesting one! Las Vegas, of course, remains 245 miles northeast of Palmdale, and the two will never be suburbs, I humbly predict.

As a native of the Antelope Valley where Palmdale exists, when people ask where Palmdale is, I respond by saying "it's the forgotten part of Southern California" or "it's the other Southern California - the one without the smog and movie stars" - akin to the saying used lately of "pork: the other white meat." Palmdale is still confused regionally to this day with Palm Springs due to the use of the same word "palm." Of course, folks don't know Palmdale is around 125 miles northwest of PS, and cooler to boot! Why the movie stars didn't come to Palmdale in the 1930's I dunno. . . (smile) Seriously, because Palmdale has been with a small population most of its life, it has to a large degree an identity problem - one that the city fathers and Chamber folks are tackling aggressively. --avnative 14:14, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)

Metropolitan Area

As regards whether or not Palmdale has a metropolitan area: Before jumping to a “yes” or “no” answer, one should first research what the definition of a “metropolitan area” really is, should they not?

In doing research, there exist 2 types of metropolitan areas. The CMSA (Central Statistical Metropolitan Area), and the MSA (Metropolitan Statistical Area). The difference?

A CMSA is a major Metropolitan Area made up of several other metropolitan areas. For example, Los Angeles is a CMSA and an MSA, as is New York. The cities of San Diego and Philadelphia both have an MSA of their own, but are included in the CMSA’s of Los Angeles and New York City. CMSA’s are generally referred to as a “Greater Metropolitan Area” or a “Megalopolis.”

An MSA is a standard metropolitan area, and is the one usually referred to by most people. The definition of a MSA or Metropolitan Statistical Area is: “a geographic area comprised of a central urban area (usually the largest city within it) that serves as the hub for employment, commerce, government, educational, and medical facilities, surrounded by smaller urban or suburban areas, that are dependent upon the larger hub-urban center for the above services.”

Does Palmdale fit the criteria for an MSA? Certainly!

EMPLOYMENT CENTER: While Palmdale at one time just a few years back was considered a “commuter city,” it has since grown and developed a central employment area so that now 60% of its residents now work locally. 40% of its population still commutes to Los Angeles. It also employs and has more employment opportunities than any other city in the California high-desert area. A great deal of people commute to Palmdale from places as far as Barstow, Frazier Park, and Ridgecrest for work at its retail establishments and manufacturing companies like Boeing, Lockheed, BAE Systems, American Pole And Lighting, Northrop Grumman, Senior Systems Technology, etc...

COMMERCE CENTER: Palmdale is the principal retail and commerce hub of the high desert region, home to more stores and shopping centers by itself than all the other high-desert communities combined. Victorville is the only other high desert community with a mall and its mall is only 1/3rd the size of Palmdale’s. Palmdale Regional Airport is the only commercial passenger airport in the region, with a proposed 30 gate terminal in the works. While it is true that there has been talk over the years about building this terminal, it has never came true. However, 2 years ago the City of Los Angeles, looking to ease congestion at LAX, BUR, ONT, LGB, and SNA, put forth a $2 million study to develop the project, finally. A city is not going to spend that kind of money on something that they are not planning on doing rather quickly. The airport is resuming commercial service to Las Vegas in September. The airport also has a cargo ramp for local manufacturers. Palmdale is also the hub for the Foreign Trade Zone, which is a federally zoned area for international trade and commerce, granting special tax breaks to manufacturing, industries located within that zone. This zone, governed by Palmdale, surrounds Palmdale Airport and extends as far north as California City, placing all of that area within Palmdale’s SOI or Sphere Of Influence.

GOVERENMENT CENTER: Palmdale has the largest SOI of any city in the high desert region, therefore it generally organizes most planning and development of the area communities within the high desert portion of Los Angeles County (minus Lancaster), and the entire Foreign Trade Zone, which extends far into Kern County. As far as government offices go, the Local Senators and House of Representatives offices are all in Palmdale, as is the County Supervisors district office. The municipal courthouse was equally divided between Palmdale and Lancaster until the new courthouse opened on Columbia Way, the city limit border between the 2 cities.

EDUCATIONAL CENTER: Palmdale is home to more private colleges and universities than any other high desert city. Palmdale started offering satellite University of California classes in the building formerly used for the courthouse. This is being done in plans for a permanent UC campus in Palmdale. Antelope Valley Community College also has plans for a Palmdale campus. As it sits, Palmdale and Lancaster are pretty much even as an educational center, Lancaster being dominant with the basic post-high school education, and Palmdale being dominant with the more advanced bachelors and masters classes.

MEDICAL CENTER: Currently the high desert region’s cities transport the most serious medical and trauma cases to the major hospital facilities in the Inland Empire and L.A. Basin. While Lancaster currently has both general practice hospitals and the senior facilities in the area, Palmdale has the most individual doctor’s and specialist’s offices. Palmdale currently has under construction a major hospital facility with a special care center and trauma center, the first one in the high desert region. Surrounding the new hospital will be senior facilities that will surpass the quantity and services given of those in Lancaster. Upon completion of this hospital in 2005, Palmdale will be the complete medical hub for the entire high desert region.

Part II is about the smaller dependent urban communities or suburbs. Does Palmdale have these? Yes.

While there is much argument about the locality and distance of these, those arguments are irrelevant. The MSA definition answers whether or not a city will qualify or not.

For Example: Toledo, Ohio is closer to Detroit than Palmdale is to Los Angeles, yet Toledo is not counted as part of Detroit’s MSA. Youngstown, Ohio is not counted as part of Cleveland’s MSA, yet it is also closer than Palmdale is to Los Angeles. Milwaukee, Wisconsin is also closer, but is not a part of Chicago’s MSA either, however it is a part of Chicago’s CMSA. The same is true about Palmdale. It has its own MSA, by definition, just as the Inland Empire, Ventura/Oxnard, San Diego, and Santa Barbara. However all of these fall under the Los Angeles CMSA or “Greater Los Angeles / Southern California Area” The basic Los Angeles MSA is strictly the L.A. Basin, San Fernando Valley, San Gabriel Valley, and Orange County. Even Santa Clarita is not part of the Los Angeles MSA.

What are these suburbs of Palmdale? Other cities that are dependent upon Palmdale for the services of Employment, Commerce, Government, Education, and Medical.

I began my career working in retail and sales and now I work in the medical field. I can truly tell you that Barstow, Victorville, Adelanto, Phelan, Pinon Hills, Hesperia, Apple Valley, Tehachapi, Ridgecrest and California City are dependent on Palmdale for these services. As a matter of fact, the Palmdale Newspaper, Antelope Valley Press, prints the local news from these cities and is distributed in them. Also all of Palmdale’s 9 radio stations and 3 TV stations also are shared among them, boring as though they may be. While the eastern communities of Victor Valley and Barstow may be equally split on dependence between Palmdale and the Inland Empire right now, that gap will close in Palmdale’s favor when the SR-18 is completed as a freeway. Now there is also talk about extending Interstate 40 into Palmdale at the same time as well. However, Tehachapi, Ridgecrest, and California City are all completely dependent upon Palmdale for shopping, educational, and medical needs. People in those communities do not travel to Bakersfield. It appears closer to them on a map, but is really farther away. Go ahead and take a survey. I worked in a department where we sorted the locations of customers and so I know these things for a fact.

And… Victorville is 45 miles from Palmdale and Barstow is 51 miles, not 80. It takes 80 miles to get there because we do not have a direct route there (main reason for extending I-40).

Plus, as I mentioned before, distance is irrelevant. If you still think that it is, look at Flagstaff, AZ’s MSA boundaries and maybe you’ll change your mind.

So upon examination of the actual definition of a Metropolitan Area, I can truthfully say that there does exist a Palmdale Metropolitan area. While its boundaries I gave may be disagreed with, nevertheless, using the definition will help you define the boundaries.

The US Census may not have given an official Metropolitan Area statistic during the 2000 census (once again, due to the lack of knowledge and bad impression), but I guarantee they will in 2010. This still does not take away from the fact that Palmdale has a metropolitan area according to the definition.

It doesn't matter whether or not the US Census will create a Palmdale metropolitan area or not... the point is, there is no official Palmdale metro area right now, and that's what's going in the article. As for the suburbs... shared TV stations does not mean they are a suburb. When I lived in Montana, we got a Denver station. Is Butte Montana then a suburb of Denver? In Vancouver BC they have Seattle TV stations... is Vancouver BC a suburb of Seattle? Barstow is "only" 51 miles away? Both Palmdale and Barstow are too small for that distance to have any meaning. Distance is quite relevant. The fact right now is, Palmdale is technically a suburb to Los Angeles. Perhaps that will change in the future... but Wikipedia is not for speculation. --Kukuman 10:38, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia encyclopedia articles of good repute go by the Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines, among other things. I would encourage our friend anon to peruse that section of the Wikipedia. One of the more basic parts of editing an article such as Palmdale is hewing (adhering) to verifiable facts (always best to footnote them, too).

Now as to the issue of whether or not Palmdale is an "official metropolitan area:" key question: as defined by whom? You? Me? a local tire store? A real estate agent? A governmental agency? Which one is more reputable and/or unbiased? The governmental agency, correct. So far, so good!

However, we need also to consider what that governmental agency states in the information presently available via its internet site, documents, etc., etc. about the subject of the article, e.g. Palmdale. The US Census Bureau currently lists Palmdale as part of the Lancaster/Palmdale Urbanized Area (UA). Please see [[1]] to see what the US Census Bureau says, not what you or I say. Based on this research, I would humbly submit - though it flies in the face of what our dear editor contributor anon would like said - That Palmdale, by itself alone, is not a CMSA, nor an MSA. It is, however part of a recognized Urban Area (UA) with Lancaster. In fact, the US Bureau of the Census officially refers to it as the Lancaster/Palmdale Urban Area. That wording by the Census folks is quite different than the wording Palmdale metropolitan area. Words have meaning, and words help winnow the wheat from the chaff. Words also point to the actual facts of a matter, not what we wish were true, or what might be true in the future. Again. . . Wikipedia is not for speculation. Just facts.

We ought always to aim to help the reader who might stumble on a Wikipedia article through a Google or Dogpile search engine search - on Palmdale, or another subject - to see Wikipedia as an evenhanded reliable teller of those verifiable facts. The goal here is to compile an online encyclopedia, not make a homepage about our hometown or home valley. Those with particular points of view that wish to be expressed can always create an internet page of their own elsewhere on the Internet (there's a Palmdale crime website that comes to mind). Respectfully submitted, --avnative 04:18, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)

Census

Were the local commercials involved on those radio stations you heard in MT directed to you? No. Were you part of the target audience? No. They were directed to those who live in Denver and it's surrounding metro. You were fortunate enough to be in the right place or to have a high power antenna enough to receive it. Those stations were not shared with you. That is a bad comparison. Philadelphia can receive plenty of New York stations too, but Philly is not the target audience and the local commercials do not really pertain to them.

Palmdale's stations are shared in that the target audience includes the communities of Victor Valley, Barstow, Cal City, and Ridgecrest, and the local commercials are directed to them as well. You hear advertisements for Tehachapi businesses, Ridgecrest businesses, and Victorville businesses on the Palmdale radio stations. You do not hear advertisements for Palmdale's or any other high desert city's businesses on any L.A. radio stations.

Actually there are other references to Palmdale's Metropolitan Area as independent from Los Angeles, such as these sites one of which includes the United States Census Bureau:

http://www.valleyrealty.org/av_demo.htm

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/AdvSearchByPlacenameServlet?_command=getPlacenames&_keyword=palmdale&_programYear=&_placename=40000US47611&_geoBucketId=50&_treeId=4001&_state=&_lang=en

The technical name for the metropolitan area is the "Palmdale/Lancaster, California - High Desert Metropolitan Urbanized Area" and it is recognized by the U.S. Census Bureau as far back as the 1990 Census with an actual number (Code 4010). It is recognized as a binary city urbanized complex just as Raleigh/Durham, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Tampa/St. Petersburg, Cleveland/Akron, Dallas/Ft. Worth, Seattle/Tacoma, etc... So, yes there is an official metro for PMD, which is not part of L.A.

"Palmdale/Lancaster" implies that that covers Palmdale and Lancaster and not the other towns you mention. Palmdale and Lancaster are very close together so I can see that... but I still don't see how places like Victorville and Barstow can be considered part of an "urbanized" area... the Mojave Desert is far from being urbanized. --Kukuman 12:02, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Please see my response in the "Metropolitan Area" section above. K has it right. . .

It might be worth noting that if Palmdale were to be in a state of lesser population, it probably would get more attention than it does as a California incorporated city. The actual fact, is, of course. . . it is not in Montana, South Dakota, North Carolina, New Mexico, etc. etc. It's a city within the geographic confines of California. As such, Palmdale does not get as much noticed as cities of similar size in states with lesser populations. Palmdale is kind of like South Barrington, Illinois to the larger Chicagoland area (although South Barrington has far fewer residents). It's overshadowed by the larger key city of Chicago. --avnative 04:38, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)

kukuman

Are Burlington, Cary, and Chapel Hill, NC included in the Raleigh/Durham area? They are not mentioned in the name either.

While the area may not be as densley populated as others you have in mind, there is a constant chain of towns and cities between Palmdale and the communities of Victor Valley. Are no point during the journey between the two are you in an unnamed locality where nobody lives. You leave Palmdale and you're in Littlerock. Then you get to Pearblossom, then Llano, then Pinon Hills, then Phelan, then Adelanto, then Victorville. You are either in a city or a town. They may be cities and towns of 3,000 to 20,000 inbetween, but it still counts. You go north on the 15 out of Victorville, you're in Oro Grande, then Helendale, then Barstow. Still, city and town chains have nothing to do with setting an MSA. Otherwise, everything between Virginia Beach and Boston could be counted as an MSA.

Palmdale's metropolitan area's boundaries are really the same as the geographic Antelope Valley itself. Victor Valley, which has Victorville, Apple Valley, Adelanto, and Hesperia, is a sublet valley within the larger Antelope Valley, as is the Tehachapi Valley and Indian Wells Valley that is home to Ridgecrest, Barstow, and California City. So not only are these cities dependent cities, but they are also within the natural geographic area. Those valleys are not separate from the A.V., but rather a part of it. A topographical map will show you that.

Plus, distance is irrelevant when it comes to staging a metro area. City dependency is the greater formula that is used. Take Flagstaff's MSA. (CODE 2620) *Census Website. It's real name is "Flagstaff, AZ - UT MSA." Is Flagstaff heavily urbanized? Flagstaff's MSA includes Kanab, UT. How far is Kanab, UT from Flagstaff? 206 Miles driving, about 175 miles flying! That is quite a bit farther than the 51 miles to Barstow. That would actually be the same as including Needles in Palmdale's MSA. What is between Flagstaff and Kanab? Nothing! The Grand Canyon, Page, and Tuba City, that's all. It is given to Flagstaff based on the fact that people who are in Kanab use Flagstaff as their urban service center. The same way that Barstow and Victor Valley residents use Palmdale for their urban service center. Plus, there are plenty more people living between Palmdale and Barstow than live in that whole Flagstaff MSA. It is not as sparsely populated as you may think.

Stating that Palmdale and Barstow are both too small for them to be included in an MSA is rediculous. Barstow yes, Palmdale no. Palmdale is larger than any city in Montana by far. Are you saying that Billings doesn't have an MSA? Quite to the contrary. Palmdale is quite large enough to have an MSA. It is larger than any city in the states of: Montana, Wyoming, Connecticut, Delaware, South Carolina, North Dakota, South Dakota, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, & West Virginia. 11 States. All of those states have cities with MSA's. Palmdale rivals cities like Salt Lake, Orlando, Boise, Little Rock, Knoxville, Reno, Amarillo, and Shreveport in size. Getting people from the outside to understand this is the hard part. This is what I am trying to get you to see. We have suffered long enough by being counted only as important as Barstow and I think avnative will agree.

Anyway, like I said before, Victorville and Barstow are evenly split between Palmdale and the Inland Empire for their services.

Education, Medical (with major trauma going to the I.E. and basic services going to Palmdale), Employment, and Government (with County going to the I.E. and House & Senate Representatives going to Palmdale) are evenly split between the two MSA's. Commerce and shopping primarily goes to Palmdale.

Say what you want about them. It can go either way. Include them with Palmdale or the I.E. for the time being. But when the new freeway is built, they will be completely included in Palmdale's MSA for everything.

The other communities of Tehachapi, Cal City, and Ridgecrest are all currently fully dependent on Palmdale for everything and are therefore counted as part of the MSA.

Is Palmdale more populated than Barstow? Of course! is it a more important city in California? Depends on whose point of view (POV) is expressed. That can get subjective fast. . . If you are near Barstow and need a hospital, you probably aren't going to go to Palmdale (which presently has no full-service hospital), or even neighboring Lancaster. For your ordinary cuts and bruise scenario, you'd go to Barstow.

If you (still being near to Barstow) are looking for a Hyundai car part for your broken down Elantra, you'd probably not be going to Soutar's car dealership in Barstow, though. They don't carry that line of car, last I heard. You'd be looking at Victorville, San Bernadino, or Palmdale for the part.

Point is, each locality in the Mojave Desert has services (of more or less amounts) to offer its residents, citizens, visitors, travelers. . . you get the point. Palmdale does indeed have a population significantly larger than Barstow, and in that regard can be considered a more viable place of business in many respects. Yet Barstow is a well-known traveler's stop in its own right (that Las Vegas traffic comes to mind - ugh) and is a famous Route 66 place name, while Palmdale is miles away from the Main Street of America. Palmdale still doesn't have a commercial vehicle "truck stop" as yet, while Barstow/Lenwood has that well taken care of. . .

The message our friend anon wants the world to know is this: Palmdale isn't a small place anymore - it's grown up now. And indeed it has. (Palmdale) Mayor James C. Ledford (whose brother went to school with hizzoner) recently stated in the Antelope Valley Press "Palmdale now has retailers asking to come in and do business here." (Words to that effect) "People have found us and are coming on their own - we don't have to sell the city the way we did anymore." (Words to that effect) "We've turned the corner on the city's growth." (Words to that effect)

The days of Palmdalians getting blank stares and dismissive remarks about what the city of Palmdale has to offer the rest of the state of California are now over. Palmdale is getting a reputation as a good place to do business, a friendly place with affordable housing (such as that is in the state currently) and as a very livable city of many desirable amenities within the Antelope Valley. It's "Bubble Boy" days are over and done with. Those who have a chip on their shoulder and live there ought to take another look at Palmdale. . . it's not your father's (or mother's) Palmdale of 10,479 (1960 census), 8,511 (1970 census), or 12,000+ (1980 census). It's no longer "Palmdale, Pride and Progress" as the local Chamber has long sloganeered. It's "Palmdale: a place to call home." And Palmdalians can take an urbanized pride in that which they never could previously.

That said, Palmdale ranks 194th in population in the US cities list as compiled/defined by the US Census Bureau. It's not a Fresno yet, but it's also not anything like a Carlsbad, New Mexico. Some cities to compare Palmdale to would include Modesto, Moreno Valley, Menifee, Temecula and Oceanside. All of these (except Modesto) are "ring cities" surrounding the LA megalopolis (as colloqually defined in conversation). Modesto is a Northern California example of an agricultural trading center that became a commuter haven for SF Bay area folks much like Palmdale has become for Southland folks. I'd say Palmdale is as important - give or take - as any of these incorporated cities.

But it doesn't have its own MSA as yet. Again, speculation on when Palmdale will get this or that. . . a MSA designation, or a freeway, or for that matter - a world renowned (fill in the blank) is just that: speculation. In writing the Palmdale Wikipedia article we have to stick to the actual, verifiable, checkable, academically known facts. Thanks for your kind consideration. Respectfully submitted, --avnative 05:55, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)

History

The Palmdale City Library gave permission to place a link to it's website history page. http://www.palmdalelibrary.org/history/ for information regarding the history of the city.

Come, let us reason together

Dear anon, since you and I live in the Antelope Valley around the Palmdale area, I would like to invite you to dinner - hopefully sometime next week (I'm away at a seminar the rest of this week). I'll buy! Please let me know your likes and dislikes as to times, days, and cuisine. I think this way our differences may be amicably settled in a friendly way without creating embarrassment regarding the Wikipedia Palmdale article. Of course, our "password" to help the wait staff bring us to the same table would be "Wikipedia."

I (and you) could continue on in print the way it's been going, but I think a verbal and friendly dinner meeting would be a good thing. Waddya say? Looking forward to hearing from you at your convenience. Happy Trails, --avnative 16:08, Aug 11, 2004 (UTC)

I'm not the anon guy to whom you refer, but damn, that sounds awesome. ✈ James C. 12:46, 2004 Aug 12 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback, Xmnemonic (James). I am indeed most humbled by your kind praise. I serve an awesome God, and he gave me that idea from Jesus Christ's own example while here on earth as found in the New Testament Gospel accounts in the Bible. Happy Trails to you! --avnative 12:18, Aug 13, 2004 (UTC)