Talk:Big Ben/Archive 1

Untitled

What's with the line in French at the end of the first part? Pretty sure that doesn't belong in the English version of the article128.62.107.198

According to the House of Commons factsheet [1], there is no C quarter bell in the tower (the four are G#, F#, E, and B); which one has two hammers? (Or is the factsheet wrong? Any Londoners with perfect pitch handy?) Psmith 12:05, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Well, according to Westminster Quarters, and my vague memory from some music lessons at school (we once studied the chimes, as we all heard them every day), the notes are "G, C, D, and E" (as said); certainly, I don't think there were any accented notes, and the MIDI file on the page sounds right - well, as right as any MIDI file will. But, then, I'm not an expert on bells. I dunno, TBH. I'll ask some people who might know, though.

James F. 13:30, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Another picture

This has a fair amount of detail in it. The angle makes the inscription under the face easier to read. It's not a perfect image, though. Hope it's useful. Mr. Jones 08:57, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Removal of BrE template

I notice that SpNeo removed the BrE template—obviously didn't like the fact that British English says that the -ize spelling is preferred by many British dictionaries, and about on par with -ise in actual usage. Gene Nygaard 09:25, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

is Big Ben really just the bell?

I noticed that according to www.dictionary.com "big ben" or "Big Ben" is the clock in the clock tower not just the bell. It sites as its source WordNet® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University.

Yup, its just the bell. But as the article says, it is commonly mistakenly used to refer to the clock and even the whole clock tower. See also Palace of Westminster which User:Lord Emsworth has been doing a nice job of expanding recently. You wouldn't really expect an American dictionary to know what it is talking about on this matter would you? -- Solipsist 20:31, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It was originally the bell, but has it taken on a second larger meaning as well? I found numerous travel web pages that refer to the clock as big ben. A google image search for "big ben" returns hundreds of pictures of the clock, but in the first 400 of them or so I found only one picture of the bell. Do people in England use the phrase "big ben" only to refer to the bell and not the clock? The fact that there's a "little ben" which is a smaller clock not a smaller bell suggests to me that even in England the usage has evolved.

It's one of those cases where the common usage is not the technically correct usage. DJ Clayworth 19:25, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

For example, may millions of people think that there's a Queen of England. There isn't, and hasn't been since 1707 (or the 13th century, if you take the commonly-used meaning of 'England').

James F. (talk) 19:26, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Do people in England use the phrase "big ben" only to refer to the bell - Well no, most people in Britain make the same mistake as everyone else, although a fair percentage of them will point to the tower/clock calling it 'big ben' then correct themselves saying "well actually that's just the bell, but..." and then they get a bit confused because they have no idea what they are supposed to call the clock tower if it is not 'Big Ben'. -- Solipsist 20:35, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, the tower is formally known as St George's tower - but let's be honest - in reality it's called "Big Ben" in practice. The name of "Big Ben" for the tower originated from the name of the bell. However, "Big Ben" is so established as the common name of the tower that it would be perverse to say it is wrong to call the tower by that name. There'll always be the clever dick technocrats who like to stick their noses up, say na-na-na-na na-na, you're wrong - it's not called Big Ben - but they're really the ones that fail to see that tempora mutant, et nos mutantur in illis. In short - nowadays "Big Ben" is the name of the clock tower, and the name of the bell, but the clock tower also has a formal name that is sometimes used instead of "Big Ben", jguk 20:44, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sorry Jguk, that's just not right. I'm sure it is still pretty much the case that all school children in the UK are taught that it is only correct to call the bell 'Big Ben'. The problem is that we are not generally taught the correct name for the clock tower. So we all know it is wrong, we just don't know what the right answer is. -- Solipsist 21:11, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm not really sure what schoolchildren do get taught - if anything it will be what their teachers think. However, words mean what people use them to mean - and they can change meaning over time. Nowadays, Big Ben is used so frequently for St George's Tower that it can be taken to mean that (as well as the bell too, of course). To say it is "wrong" would not be recognising that language and usage change over time. There are loads of examples, this is just one, jguk 06:31, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ordinarily I'd be the first to agree with you. However, is this really true when it comes to proper names? If it were a person, they would be the only ones who could control what their real name is, even if most people know them by another one (I'd like to think of an example, like a stage name, but Elton John seems to have changed his name by deed poll). I'm not sure who gets to name bits of the Houses of Parliament, but the official/government web sites are all quite careful on naming the clock tower and the bell. -- Solipsist 07:59, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I beleive that the name of the tower is officially the Clock Tower, but if the tower has other designation in common usuage the article should reflect that without making value judgments on them. The article in fact does do this already with the designation "St George's tower" which the article point's out is not official but the article never claims that it is wrong for people to call it that. I think this pattern should be followed in the case of Big Ben used for the tower. The article should reflect that Big Ben is the name of a bell in the tower but that the name has become so closely associated with the tower itself that the tower it is now generally called Big Ben. It's fine to point out the the official name of the tower is still the Clock Tower but there's no reason to decree that it's wrong to call the tower Big Ben.

What's all this about "St George's Tower?" Has it ever actually been called that? --Hux 17:45, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone know how the St Stephen's Tower comment got back into this article? As I wrote, when I shunted that article to Clock Tower in January 2004, no-one who works at the Palace of Westminster calls it that - though tour guides and guidebooks perpetuate the name, without any justification for it. [2] - MykReeve T·C 15:02, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

According to the history and building FAQ on www.parliament.uk it is just called the Clock Tower. Technicall the bell is just the Bell of the Great Clock of the Palace of Westminster. Teriyaki 22:44, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The bell is 'Big Ben', the clock tower is 'Saint Stephen's Tower'. I've always known these as such for almost the full 20 years I've lived in the United Kingdom.Kingpin1055 23:12, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Broken from August to May?

The article states:

"The clock had its first and only major breakdown in 1976. The chiming mechanism broke due to metal fatigue on August 5th, 1976, and was reactivated again on May 9."

Is that May 9th, 1977? Does anybody have a cite for that? this article claims the clock restarted on August 27th 1976. --Jmstylr 20:14, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Merge with Clock Tower?

Considering the duplication between this and the Clock Tower, as well as the confusion in its naming, should we just merge the two articles? violet/riga (t) 11:47, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like a plan. -- Solipsist 12:43, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Right, I've gone ahead and done this. Hope people are happy with how it's turned out. I think a small map of London, highlighting where the Palace of Westminster is, might be a nice little addition – then we might wish to prepare this to be a FAC. violet/riga (t) 13:10, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Foundation dimensions?

"The tower consists of brickwork with stone cladding, that is 61 m (200 ft) high; the remainder of the tower's height is accounted for by a framed spire of cast iron. The tower is founded on a 15 by 15 m (49 by 49 ft) raft, which is is made of 3 m (9 ft) thick concrete, extending for 7 m (23 ft) below ground level." Ok, now I have a mental picture of a rectangular block 49 ft along one side by 49ft on the other and 9ft deep. How does 9ft extend for 7m (23 ft) below ground? I assume it means the whole foundation goes this deep but that muudy so I am editing. If my assumption is incorrect please re-edit with a description that can be comprehended without ambiguity. Dainamo 08:26, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Think of an open-topped box instead of a block. the walls of the box are 3m thick --JimWae 18:21, 2005 July 18 (UTC)

Sound of Big Ben

What this article needs is a link to a sound file.

Does anyone have public domain recorded sound of the Big Ben?

St. Stephen's Tower

Why is this a Big Ben article with a redirect from St. Stephen's Tower; shouldn't this be a St. Stephen's Tower article with a redirect from Big Ben? joturner 02:30, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Given that "Big Ben" in near-universal common usage refers to the whole thing - tower, clock and bell(s) (however technically wrong that may be) - it makes the most sense for this article to remain as the default, I would think. --Hux 17:45, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Too! Many! Pictures!

Is it just me, or does the number of pictures need cutting by about half? Repeated pictures of the clock tower don't really add much to the page. --Mpk 12:53, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Summer time?

Can someone clarify what happens when the clocks change. Does the clock face spin faster for an hour in Spring and slower in Autumn for an hour? What's needed to do this?

I'd imagine someone would set the clock forwards and backwards just like any other clock tower. I can't say for sure.--Jcvamp 15:07, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I read on the BBC clicking a few links on who maintains it, it was dated December 30th not sure what year (2002-2005) probably

Units of measurement

Since this page deals with a device designed to keep an accurate measurement, could people get over these little contradictions in metric/imperial units please? It would be great if something could be decided and kept that way right across all of WP, but maintaining the same units on one page would be a start! I for one feel anyone who makes imperial measurements the default in an encyclopedia is crazy. 124.168.242.221 13:48, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Isn't imperial the standard in America? Either way, it would be a good idea to use both American Imperial (or whatever its correct name is) with a note specifying that, and a conversion to decimal, again with a note.--Jcvamp 15:10, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Intro paragraph

"Big Ben was originally created so that people in England wouldn't need pocket watches. Also it is the bell of the Palace of Westminster in London, England, United Kingdom also known as the Great Bell of Westminster, the largest bell in the tower and part of the Great Clock of Westminster. Many people refer to the whole tower as Big Ben, but the name properly refers only to the bell. The clock tower, St. Stephen's Tower, is at the north-eastern end of the building, the home of the Houses of Parliament, and contains the famous striking clock and bell"

At least the first part of this paragraph doesn't come off as being either factual or competantly written 'Big Ben was originally created so that people in England wouldn't need pocket watches'? What on earth is that? I'll do a rough revision but it'll need a more professional edit soon. Kingpin1055 19:10, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Just Checking

So does the first strike indicate the start of the new hour, because on the Big Ben software I downloaded is programmed to start the chiming upon when my computer says the hour exactly, but then strikes 20 seconds later, apparently you have to put it forward. Does the clock itself go 20 seconds fast?

Disambiguation page

I find it hard to believe that _anyone_ would type Big Ben into Wikipedia and not want to know about the clock (or maybe the bell). Surely the disambiguation page should be Big Ben (disambiguation)?

Or have I missed the discussion on this somewhere else?

--JimmyTheWig 15:25, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes - its wrong. Someone (it looks like User:Cacophony [3]) did an ill-advised page move at the beginning of September end of August. Worse, they did a cut-n-paste page move which is just wrong, wrong, wrong. It'll take a bit of work to disentangle it and put it back to the way it should be. Wikipedia is running rather slowly for me at the moment, but I might get a chance to sort it out later. -- Solipsist

I didn't move the page. I removed some of the content to make it look more like a disambiguation so that it wouldn't be confused with the real article. I agree that Big Ben should redirect to Clock Tower, Palace of Westminster with a link to this page at the top. Cacophony 18:35, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, looking into the problem more User:Stevouk removed most of the contents on August 29th. To fix this issue, the current contents of the page need to be moved to Big Ben (disambiguation) (which currently redirects here). This page should redirect to Clock Tower, Palace of Westminster.

Sorry, my mistake. You are right. It looks like the edit by User:Stevouk on the 29th August was the root cause of the problem [4]. And since they removed the {cleanup} tag at the same time, I suspect they thought they were helping with tidying up the article. Response times are improving now, so I should be able to sort it out. -- Solipsist 19:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately its too hard. I've now listed the affected pages on Wikipedia:Cut and paste move repair holding pen for more direct help with access to the database. -- Solipsist 19:42, 4 October 2006 (UTC)