User talk:Ramapoughnative1

Welcome!

Hello, Ramapoughnative1, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! --Duk 15:47, 16 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ramapough Mountain Indians[edit]

Hi Steven, I understand that you are frustrated with this page and will try my best to help you fix it. New users are often frustrated by the wiki process, it takes a little time to see how things work, but with some effort I'm sure that you can fix this article. Some tips;

In general, don't copy and paste text from other websites into wikipedia, it will likely be deleted on copyright violation grounds.
If you are the author, or have permission to use previously published material in wikipedia, then you need to state this on the article's talk page. Include contact information (for example, refer to your tribal website's contact information).
Offensive material- The best way to attack this is to make your case on the talk page. And then, slowly fix the article little by little. If a previous version of the article is deleted and replaced with your version, the editors who wrote the earlier version might get upset, even if they had some incorrect information.

If you have any more problems, don't hesitate to ask--Duk 15:50, 16 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

PS. what is your email address?--Duk 17:08, 16 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'd just come here to say the above; now all that I can do is to endorse it. There's nothing wrong with anyone changing the articles (with appropriate citations), it's just the copyright/plagiarism issue that's the problem. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:18, 16 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

pokey5945: I have found more derogatory info added to this page. I have updated your page to include the information from Ed Lenik from the N.J. Highlands Historical Society. The point i'd like to make is Cohen did not work or even consult with the tribe to write his books. Ed Lenik did. Therefore, Cohens only reference was the one sided stories and myths written about us from the people who wanted nothing more than to steal our land. Their writings of us were less than perfect because they didn't care. ( think of Abramhoff who was hired to lobby FOR the tribes but did the opposite and called them names behind their backs) At this time, it is documented that the white colonials beat, raped, and stole from the indians. When the indians tried to get justice, there was none. This is why the tribes sold their land and moved north and west. They were invited by other tribes to live with them and they feared for their existence if they stayed here.

Thanks for editing the input. I want to bring to your attention that the BIA hasn't recognized any of the 3 state recognized tribe here in New Jersey. As a matter of fact, they have removed a few who were. The BIA is loaded with flaws and will add or remove a tribe based on who's paying. PERIOD. We never wanted recognition for a casino and filed our petition in 1978, years before the casino law was inacted but a powerful person here who owns the casino business assumed we wanted to get in on his business and guess what? He petitioned against us and we didn't get recognized. What ever happened to examining the facts? This event is well documented can be found on the web. We don't need anyone to decide if we are or are not Indian. We know who we are and don't care what anyone else thinks. You adding the part about the BIA decision, a branch of the federal government (who has done nothing to preserve or keep it's treaties with any tribe), doesn't recognize us as Native American adds no merit to the facts. This is the same branch that has members who have been caught lying, stealing tribal funds, and conspiring against all Native Americans. I thought this was suppose to be a factual site. Seems you want to push propaganda. Do you work for the government too?

Steven

The federal government's relationship to the group is relevant to this article, regardless of whether one agrees with the govts' decisions or not. If you can document some corruption in the BIA acknowledgment process, that would relevant too, but it would need to be verifiable.Pokey5945 06:47, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

The proof will be when the Shinnecocks claim about Blumenthau contacting the BIA and tampering with the decision making comes to light. Why is it that legend about the Ramapoughs being descendent of deserter soldiers and slave women (which has NO proof even existed and is considered slander) has to be mentioned here but the fact that there are hundreds of documents and some noted anthropologist such as Roger Josilyn saying we are whom we say but that's not good enough? We didn't get recognition because it wasn't in the governments best interest. If you read the document by the BIA, we failed because we weren't documented before 1870 or after 1950. How does a whole village of people appear out of nowhere overnight? Since I was born in 1958, Why doesn't birth and death records suffice to the existence of the same tribe? Doesn't geneology records have any part in the decision? It's all B.S.

The Assistant Secretary found that Petitioner satisfied the criteria in § 83.7(b) and (c) for the period 1870-c.1950. However, she stated: "Meeting a criterion for a limited period is not sufficient to meet the criterion overall because of the requirement of continuous existence. No adequate evidence has been submitted to show the continuous existence of a community from first sustained contact with non-Indians until 1870, or from 1950 to the present. http://www.ibiadecisions.com/Ibiadecisions/31ibia/31ibia061.PDF(31 IBIA 67)

POKEY5945: The part you added about COHEN "who conducted extensive genealogical research among the group." is removed because it is a lie. He never did any geological research. His information is based on documents written by John C. Storms in 1936. Roger Josyln who IS a geneologist disputes Cohen and had stated otherwise. Here is Joslyn's credentials.

Roger D. Joslyn, CG, FASG, is a Fellow of the American Society of Genealogists (and its immediate past president), The New York Genealogical and Biographical Society, and the Utah Genealogical Association.A full-time genealogist since 1978, he became a Certified Genealogist in 1981. He is a former trustee of the Board for Certification of Genealogists, a founding member and past vice president of the Genealogical Speakers Guild, and a member of the New York Archival Services Advisory Committee (State Archives). Roger is a past president, former trustee, and former Editorial Advisory Board member of the Association of Professional Genealogists, and in 1994 he received that organization’s Grahame Thomas Smallwood, Jr. Award of Merit. He is a frequent speaker and has had many articles published in leading genealogical journals. He was the editor/compiler of the two-volume Vital Records of Charlestown, Massachusetts, and is the author of the Mid-Atlantic state chapters in Ancestry's Red Book.

We are not going to publish our geneology on your website to prove it. I also want to bring to your attention in Cohens book "The Ramapough Mountain People", page 7. He himself states "there is no evidence that this information is related to the origin of the Ramapo mountain People." So he himself disputes the Jackson White theory. So please stop printing misinformation.

P.S. Cohen is a historian NOT an geneologist. They are not the same. David Steven Cohen holds a B.A. in History from Rutgers University, an M.A. in American History from Claremont Graduate School, and an M.A. and Ph.D. in American Civilization from the University of Pennsylvania. He taught History and American Studies at Rutgers University in Newark for nine years, prior to coming to the New Jersey Historical Commission, where he is a Senior Research Associate and Director of the Ethnic History Program.

Steven

This is my email address. Ramapoughnative1@hotmail.com

1-12-06 To whom it may concern: I have made changes to your information. I have also supplied proof of what was written. The BIA document can be found anywhere on the web since it's public knowledge. Can we just leave it alone now? I would like to know why we had to go through so much more to disprove what was written. No other tribe listed here had to go through so much to get their info corrected.

Steven. ramapoughnative1@hotmail.com

1-13-05 Once again I have found errors added to this document. Roger Joslyn is a Geneologist not a Historian. What he found was the blood links to other tribes, not the shared history. There is a difference. The BIA findings did not say we were not an Indian tribe, it says we didn't prove consistant community leadership and that is different. We failed to prove items (B, C,and E), not (A) which states.. (a) The petitioner HAS been identified as an American Indian entity on a substantially continuous basis since 1900. Evidence that the group's character as an Indian entity has from time to time been denied shall not be considered to be conclusive evidence that this criterion has not been met. Evidence to be relied upon in determining a group's Indian identity may include one or a combination of the following, as well as other evidence of identification by other than the petitioner itself or its members.

(1) Identification as an Indian entity by Federal authorities. (2) Relationships with State governments based on identification of the group as Indian. (3) Dealings with a county, parish, or other local government in a relationship based on the group's Indian identity. (4) Identification as an Indian entity by anthropologists, historians, and/or other scholars. (5) Identification as an Indian entity in newspapers and books. (6) Identification as an Indian entity in relationships with Indian tribes or with national, regional, or state Indian organizations.

The Federal Government does recognize our Native American status as well as the states of New York and New Jersey. Don't misprint the facts.

P.S. look at this from the Courant.com, "Tribal Nation Files Appeal" dated 1/13

"In its latest ruling, the Interior Department rejected the Schaghticokes because the tribe failed to prove it had a viable, intact community with its own government for decades-long stretches in the 19th and 20th centuries. Tribal leaders say new evidence was ignored."

Look familiar?

Ramapoughnative1 14:52, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

ChrisR- Thanks for the updates. I can say we have reached a middle ground. One other part I need to dispute is the part about Cohen stating we were "mainly descended of free blacks and Dutch." In his book "The Ramapough Mountain People" he stated "He established that their ancestors included free black landowners in New York City and mulattoes with some Dutch ancestory who were among the first pioneers to settle in the Hackensack River Valley of New Jersey." (1974: inside cover). Can we change that? Thanks.

1/14/06 - I found more documented evidence from C.A. Weslager and included here. I have a few more books to read thru so there will be more updates coming, or did I prove my point sufficiently? Thanks! Ramapoughnative1 01:32, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

1/15/06 - Found more documented evidence of our existence before 1850. Ramapoughnative1 22:23, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

1/15/06 - References to our 'claim' of our connections to other Native American tribes north and west. I can give you this because it's published on the web. Our relations are the Brothertons of N.Y., Wisconsin, and Canada. Joslyn's publication of our geneology will remain private.

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/a/n/d/Caroline-K-Andler-Dousman/index.html

Ramapoughnative1 04:09, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

changes to Ramapough Mountain Indians[edit]

Chris.. Why did you change my work? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ramapoughnative1 (talk • contribs)

Hello. I reverted the (anonymous) changes to Ramapough Mountain Indians because they removed several requests for citation, and made claims that were disputed by some of the sources listed in the below paragraphs. That is, the changes violated the neutral point of view and the citation of sources policies. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 02:58, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To whom it may concern.. I have noted and quoted 5 distinguished Historians and Geneologists who have acknowledged the Ramapough Lenape Nation as an Indian tribe. They are all in agreement(see the annotations and read for yourself.)The only one who disagrees is Cohen in this discussion. As per your rules on NPOV, your president, Jimbo Wales states "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not." So can you please remove the bit about Cohen since he is the minority and since he couldn't prove his claim against 5 others, i'd say he is in the extreme majority.

Steven Ramapoughnative1 03:38, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Steven, the new citation added, Kraft, says that the origins of the Ramapoughs are "controversial". To change the article to ignore that controversy when it is acknowledged by experts would be illogical. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 04:09, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Chris, I added Evan T. Pritchard to the mix. He answers most of the questions you asked in his book and I can use him for the references. Thanks!

Ramapoughnative1 04:14, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure you are aware of the facts but how is this for proof of conspiracy?

Native American Indian reservations are not international (although they are often compared to Third World nations [46]), but they are not governed by the same laws as the states either. States have no power to tax, regulate, or police casinos run by Indian tribes. Indian gambling revenues are exempt from federal, state, and local taxes! Of course this does not leave state officials or other casino competitors with a good taste in their mouths. [47] (New Jersey imposes an eight percent tax on casino revenues which funds senior citizen and handicapped programs.[48])

Donald Trump has also attempted to interrupt the growth of Indian

reservation casinos. On April 30, 1993, he filed a civil suit in U.S. District Court in Newark, New Jersey against U.S. Secretary of the Interior, Bruce Babbitt, and Tony Hope, chairman of the National Indian Gaming Commission, claiming that the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act is unconstitutional and gives Indians preferential treatment and an unfair advantage in acquiring licenses for setting up legal casinos on their land.[49] [50]

Coincidentally, Trump's three Atlantic City casinos, Trump Castle,

Trump Plaza, and Trump Taj Mahal, are feeling the heat from the Mashantucket Pequot's Foxwoods casino in Connecticut and are fearing the possibility of the Ramapough Indians of Northern New Jersey opening a gambling operation near Atlantic City. "Unabashed motor mouth Donald Trump lived up to his reputation on Oct. 5 when he told a congressional hearing that organized crime is rampant on Indian reservations. Trump went on to predict that if the trend toward gaming on Native American land continues, 'this will be the biggest crime problem in this country's history.'"[51]

From the Nightly Business Report transcript of December 20, 1993,

announcer Mikkelson said, "...others say the fate of Atlantic City still rests in the hands of the state,... And competition is getting closer. Indian run Foxwood Casino in Connecticut is luring high rollers away."[52]

http://www.colorado.edu/Sewall/ramirez/cashin.htm

Guess when we lost our petition for fed rec? Dec 8, 1993! We have never wanted a casino. Coincidence?

Ramapoughnative1 22:19, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Genealogy[edit]

If you need help with your genealogy, let me know. I have access to the census and other ancestry.com information. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 03:59, 7 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Get well soon[edit]

Hi Steven, I saw your message saying you are in the hospital. I hope it is nothing serious. Get well soon. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 19:45, 19 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bman11091[edit]

Regarding Bman11091 (t c), the next step according to policy is to warn him again. See Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism for more information. The previous warning was for vandalism, the next one will be for defamation. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 00:35, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to inform you Chris but he's still at it..someone has already undone his edits. Ramapoughnative1 18:33, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think the next step is alerting an admin at WP:ANB. A statement from you that he is posting things that violate WP:LIBEL should have some weight. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 11:55, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Blocked indefinitely. No need to jump through a lot of hoops if the person hasn't made any serious edits, and if they are obviously just trying to cause trouble. --Duk 16:44, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your help, Duk. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 20:46, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]