Talk:Clef

Merge

I've taken a stab at integrating all the clef atricles here, as per the discussion on Talk:treble clef. I'll wait to change the others to redirects until I hear your comments. -- Merphant

I like the integration very much - the whole thing seems much clearer now, with the potential confusion between G clef and Treble clef virtually eliminated. Go ahead and make the other clef pages redirects.

Just one thing: maybe it would be best to put the images under "G clef", "F clef" and "C clef" rather than under "Treble clef", etc. That way we know what they look like from the start. This makes it a bit tricky to distinguish between alto and tenor clefs, but probably the thing to do is to put the alto clef under "C clef" and keep the image of the tenor clef where it is. Otherwise, this is great! --Camembert

Or, here's another idea I've just had - how about making the "Treble clef" section a subsection to "G clef", "Bass clef" a subsection to "F clef" and "Alto clef" and "Tenor clef" subsections to "C clef"? So the overall scheme of the article would become:

• G clef
  • Treble clef
  • Violin clef [or whatever else you want to call it, when I get round to writing about it]
• F clef
  • Bass clef
  • Baritone clef [if anybody ever wants to write about it]
• C clef
  • Alto clef
  • Tenor clef
  • [any other C clefs that people want to write about]

Obviously, I don't mean to use bullet points, you'd do it with headings, I guess. The more I think about this, the more I like the idea of it. I won't touch anything for now though. --Camembert

Yeah, I was thinking of laying it out like that too - group by clef symbol then by clef. BTW, anyone got any idea where to find an image of the old-style F-clef, same quality as the existing images? -- Tarquin

Ok, done. As for the other F clef, Your best bet is probably to find some printed music that uses it and scan it in. I made the others with Finale, but it doesn't seem to have that symbol in any of its fonts. It does have the F and G clefs with the 8, but I don't think those are really necessary to have here. -- Merphant

I have some music that has the old F clef that I can scan if necessary, but I'll look around for a better quality image first. I've scoured Sibelius (the program, not the, erm, composer), but can't find it in any of the fonts there, unfortunately. --Camembert

• • I've wrote a small bit on the french clef, baritone clef and the subbass clef. Sotakeit

"same line/pitch, different note" diagram

I think that diagram (at the end of the "Individual Clefs" section) is confusing. I understand it, but one of the main things that confuses people when talking about clefs or transposition is changing the "direction" you're talking about. The rest of this article sticks with the "placing the clef HERE results in THIS set of notes". Switching to "let's look at a note on a single line and change the clefs around it" seems like a recipe for confusion. Special-T (talk) 18:00, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

I've found that approaching this kind of theoretical taxonomy from different directions can be helpful in understanding it on the fly. One semi-related example that comes to mind is how the modern mixolydian mode is the white-key scale on G, a major scale with a flatted seventh, and a major scale with the last sharp removed from the key signature (or one flat added) while keeping the same tonic. One of those views may save me from having to count on my fingers every time, you see. If the diagram is confusing (which I'm not sure of) might it be a useful confusion?

Thanks again for what you've been doing with this article, Just plain Bill (talk) 20:09, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

It's a nice diagram, and I think it can be useful if it's in the right place in the article, and suitably explained. I'll think about how to maybe do that. I teach transposing instruments all the time - one sure-fire way to confuse someone is to reverse which "direction" you're doing. i.e, "If your D is a concert F, what's a concert C on your instrument?". Special-T (talk) 21:36, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Octave treble clef

There is another form, in which the K-like hooks of one form of the C clef are overlaid onto the G-clef. It's U+E056 in SMuFL. Double sharp (talk) 15:05, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Link doesn’t work Skysong263 (talk) 13:49, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Try this: SmuFL Clefs —Wahoofive (talk) 00:57, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Symbols for the clefs

I see in other music articles that there are relevant symbols for the topics. However, it seems that this one doesn't have these kinds of symbols. It doesn't make sense how we couldn't do this. However, I would like some consensus as to is we do this or to improve on its implementation if it does go through. Thank You!

SpacedShark (talk) 01:43, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Good Boys

Whatever happened to "Every Good Boy Deserves Fun?" Is that no longer true these days? 2600:4041:D5:D600:C00:4B7D:96EE:7E73 (talk) 21:18, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

I've never heard that one. I always used "Every Green Bug Detests Finland". Ravishsingh00724 (talk) 01:04, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

More of a "Every Granite Billboard Denounces Freedom" guy myself. Aza24 (talk) 06:25, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Is that some sort of incel slogan? —Wahoofive (talk) 20:38, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Another sub-octave tenor clef

At least as late as 1924’s first printing of Arrigo Boito’s Nerone, Ricordi used as a sub-octave tenor clef, a G clef on the left, and the right part of the old C clef () on the right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by John W. Kennedy (talk • contribs) 20:20, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Transposing instruments and octave clefs

Instruments that transpose at the octave do not normally use an octave clef, and I'm pretty sure this is considered incorrect these days. They may have been notated that way sometimes, but I don't really know if/why/when, so maybe someone who actually knows about this can clear that up. - Special-T (talk) 17:35, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

We don't generally decide what's "incorrect" here on WP, but I think it's safe to say such usage is unusual, even for tenor voice parts. In fact, I can't think of any situation where such clefs are used a majority of the time. —Wahoofive (talk) 02:37, 7 October 2023 (UTC)