Talk:Akhisar

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Quote farming and POV additions

The addition of various quotes based on primary accounts in order to over-emphasize a specific POV should be performed with heavy caution. Also if the events occurred outside of this settlement then that's yet another argument for removal. Alexikoua (talk) 14:15, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

There is no need to argument. You POV pushing about invasion by Greek army. Don't disruptive that. Խաղաղություն (talk) 14:30, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

You need to follow wp:words to avoid. Words like invasion or invaded about settlements should be avoided. On the other hand you changed the verb 'occupied' in the context of the occupation of the Turkish nationalist movement to 'retook'. In military terms this was occupation. Neutrally speaking the Greek army wasn't the only side that occupied the town during this war and that's sourced. Alexikoua (talk) 14:11, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Which of those villages belong to Akhisar district " Bekirs, Dereköy, Beyoba, Yatağan, Gökçeahmet, Kömürcü, Muşlar and Sarılar."? It appears that at least some of them are located in Eski Sehir and I wonder why events about such distant settlements are related to Akhisar.Alexikoua (talk) 14:21, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Okay, so as of this revision, there are multiple subpar sources in this article. This is a master's thesis and so inadmissible for controversial claims such as these. Archaeological Commentary on the Bible is clearly an inadequate source for such claims as well. This self-published source by a random physicist who self-professes to be proficient in Islamic law also has no place here (and this was the source for the killing of 7,000 Greeks all along, so the previous version wasn't very ideal after all). Primary sources (e.g. BOA. DH. KMS. 52-3/24) should also not be referenced directly. I'll try to clean this up if time allows. --GGT (talk) 16:02, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Having had a deeper look, a decent chunk of these claimed atrocities for both sides need to be removed unless there are stronger sources. I'm absolutely unable to confirm the claim of 7,000 Greeks being massacred in Akhisar and given that the population at the turn of the century was 12,000 according to the Encyclopaedia of Islam, I find this claim very unlikely and will proceed to remove it. Likewise many of the villages named seem to be irrelevant. Some of the Turkish-language sourcing is acceptable in the absence of anything better but the main source would probably be the atrocities in various villages reported by Toynbee and related on pp. 75-76 of Salt's The Unmaking of the Middle East. GGT (talk) 16:49, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

I definitely agree about the low quality of those sources: primary material should avoided, master's thesis' aren't the best we can have per wp:HISTRS and contemporary comments by (non) observers should also been removed.Alexikoua (talk) 21:14, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

About the use of material by supposed observers, we should strictly follow wp:secondary. A recent Harvard University publication concluded that:[[1]]

Rosalind wrote of deportations, mainly of notables, from in Kasaba, Manisa, Nif, Alaşehir, Salihli, Uşak, Kula, Mamara, Akhisar, Tira, Odemiş, Barindir, Torbalı, and Aydın. But the Toynbees, by their own admission, never visited these places. Instead they were fed information by leading Smyrna Turks such as Dr. Husni Bey, a large landowner who had been “completely ruined” and occasionally jailed by the Greeks, and Ramzy Bey, a bar- rister. The Toynbees conceded that they had not independently verified any of this information.

As such we should use such comteporary accounts with heavy precaution.Alexikoua (talk) 21:20, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

History section

(unindent) The source used here [2] is published by a rather dubious publisher "Berikan" [3], and should not be used for the purpose it is being use din the article. Khirurg (talk) 19:21, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

It's an independent source with a lot of references. Խաղաղություն (talk) 19:56, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

The publisher is affiliated with the ultranationalist MHP. Out of the question. Khirurg (talk) 20:52, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Political view of author is nobodies business, E. B. Hobsbawm (1917–2012), who might be the most famous and widely read historian of the 20th century; was a Radical-Communist. There are like 300 references in that source and publisher is a reliable non govermental publisher. It's not unreliable because it's Turkish. Out of question. Also you need to vertificate your idea even if he is. WP:JDLI Խաղաղություն (talk) 21:27, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Also authors of the publication, Nurettin Gülmez or Nejdet Bilgi is nothing to do with MHP. Խաղաղություն (talk) 21:41, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

We are not going to write an encyclopedia based on MHP-affiliated sources, such as the one you are promoting. You should also learn to indent your comments per WP:INDENT, and assume good faith per WP:AGF. Khirurg (talk) 23:56, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

You are manipulating community and I cannot even assume WP: GOODFAITH Խաղաղություն (talk) 05:17, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

• Authors of the publication, Nurettin Gülmez or Nejdet Bilgi is nothing to do with MHP. Any problem? Խաղաղություն (talk) 07:38, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

I tried to reach consensus but you didn't even reply me, so I don't care about what you think about source and I set forth that publishers of that source is independent over and over again. Althought they don't need to be unbiased, per WP:BIASED. Don't make this an edit war. Խաղաղություն (talk) 10:58, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

I just like no matter how many primary, secondary, and tertiary sources of Greek massacres targeting Turks from both Turkish and international sources, both historical and contemporary, peer-reviewed articles, books, memoirs... are cited to present information on Greek atrocities in the region which are still alive in the region's public mindset; the citations and information are always deleted :) Tells a great deal about how Wikipedia works! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.65.133.216 (talk) 22:27, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

I just notice: It is also pretty cool when Arnold J. Toynbee talks about the existence of a tiny Karamanlides community, he is a reliable source. But when the same Arnold J. Toynbee writes about Greek soldiers pressing hot irons on women before raping and killing them, he is suddenly not a reliable source. Lovely — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.65.133.216 (talk) 22:35, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Stop confusing different towns named Akhisar

"On July 1, 1920 it was controlled by the Turkish nationalist movement. The latter forced a number of the local population to death marches, while 350 Armenians and several local Greeks, including women and children were massacred."

"Although local Turkish representatives were supposed to protect the remaining Armenian community during the entrance of the troops of the Turkish Nationalist movement in town, nevertheless as soon as they arrived they cooperated with them in plundering and massacring the Armenians."

• This is not this Akhisar dear friends. Did you even read the source you are putting up? This is about the Izmit Peninsula. That is where the silk factories are! No silk factories and no silk production in Manisa! The current name of this town is Pamukova. It was called Akhisar at the time, as well as Kasaba-i Atik. Akhisar is an extremely common township name as it literally means "white fortress" and all of Turkey is dotted by white fortresses. How much does it make sense to you anyway that the Turkish army would retake the town on July 1, literally 8 days after the Greek occupation started, when in fact it lasted 2+ years?

"In October of 1895 newly resettled Muslims from Bulgaria attacked and massacred members of the local Armenian community."

• Not this Akhisar either. Did you read the source? It is about Trabzon. A quick research shows the current town of Beşikdüzü was named Akhisar back then, among other names, and had a significant Armenian population.

Please, I understand your attempts to push your own truth. But for starters, at least do not confuse which town you are pushing your views about! :)

Besides fixing these up, I have checked all the resources put up and placed quotes into references directly. I deleted the "7000 killed" claim as the source placed (Archaeological Commentary on the Bible) does not at all mention a number like this and only talks about massacre and expelling of Greeks from Akhisar, which is how it is written now. The number might be another confusion with the Akhisar named in the Allied report from 1921 about Ortaköy, Geyve, Akhisar, İznik, İzmit district which mentions total of 12000 Greeks being killed, but again this is the Akhisar in İzmit district, which is now Pamukova.

I also highly suspect the Akhisar mentioned for Karamanlides population being this Akhisar, as it is wildly distant from the actual region the Karamanlides inhabited, which is Karaman :). I could not find ANY Turkish or English source mentioning Karamanlis in Akhisar (Manisa) apart from this girl's PhD thesis, where she mentions Akhisar once and never again and does not specify which Akhisar it might be. But I am leaving that for now since it looks grayish. There is a very big chance that the Akhisar mentioned there might refer to Akşehir with a possible old name (white fortress vs white city) or another de:Akhisar (Aksaray) in Aksaray (white palace!) nearby, in the traditional Karamanlides area, where there is even a church. I added a clarification template for that reason.

Please discuss before raging stuff into the article that has nothing to do with this Akhisar. Best. User: BRKY24

References

It's weird to adda lot of primary reports including Toynbee's claims who have been desputed by modern scholarship. Toynbee had never visited the region and we use high precaution on such issues.Alexikoua (talk) 06:05, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Toynbee should definitely be included. He was in many of the frontlines, and he reported not only what he himself saw but also what witnesses (Greek and Turkish) shared, just like a modern article. Beyond the news, he later sat down and published books on his time here. There were also letters that were included in the information I added, before you deleted it; letters are a great source for history! There are whole books that tackle down a specific person's letters during a specific time period. All of these information sources are accepted in Wikipedia articles of vast range of topics, but you are having a tougher time accepting it, because let's face it, it does not fit into your perspective :) Beyond this, it is not only Toynbee however. The telegrams from the town, the witness reports, and memoirs of contemproraries (both foreign and local) are all included in the article and BOA files. I mean if you do not accept Turkish townsmen writing down what is going on specifying the dates, and discredit those documents, then that calls for discrediting Anne Frank too because it is the same type of historical document :) Unfortunately dear Alexikoua, we can only reach consensus when the mindset here changes from "only Turks are evil and only they did bad things all the time" :), since that was far from the case, and the Greek campaign in Anatolia is a great example of that, during which many innocent Turks were indeed victims; and Akhisar, Manisa is yet another case-specific example. I think other user Demetrios wrote that "there are no links to BOA", well have you ever tried to use any state history archives? The whole point is the number you get within the archive. If you have a university subscription etc. you can access the directory of the state arhcives, make a request, and get the numbered document. It is same for FO (British Archives), same for ÖSA (Austrian archives), same for BA (German archives), and same for BOA (Turkish archives).. It probably is same for Greek archives too. We can link the directory page though. User:BRKY24 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.65.133.216 (talk) 12:35, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Kirtik Dere does not run through Akhisar, and the article does not mention Akhisar, the way the user added into a "quote", you should be ashamed

In Axari [Akhisar], 7.000 out of 10.000 Greeks were slaughtered in the gorge of Kirtik Dere.

• User Demetrios added this quote giving a figure for slaughtering of "7000 Greeks out of 10000" in a town that had 5000 Greeks. He also made a quite small addition into the quote "[Akhisar]", thinking I will not read the article. This sort of shameless behavior should result in bans, if Wikipedia was even a slightly functional place. But if you did something like this in academia, your career would be over. In the article it is only written "In Axari, 7.000 out of 10.000 Greeks were slaughtered in the gorge of Kirtik Dere." Well, for starters, Kırtık Dere does not go through Akhisar, it goes through Manisa. And the paragraph that connects to this talks about Balıkesir. Not a single mention of Akhisar the way the user quoted. The article most likely talks about a neighborhood of Manisa, or Balıkesir. User:BRKY24

Do not think you can get away with adding modified/made up sources, I will check them all. Consensus will be reached when you stop thinking the Greek army did not conduct any atrocities. Best. User:BRKY24

The unsourced village names you are throwing around have nothing to do with Akhisar, they are 300km away, you are disrupting actual information concerning Akhisar

The villages listed by Demetrios have nothing to do with Akhisar. Dereköy, Emirdağ for instance is 300km away. The sourced information I added (townsfolk reports, BOA, Toynbee, and Tok) include information on villages that are actually around Akhisar. This has reached ridiculous proportions, I understand you do not want to see information talking about Greek atrocities, but at this point you are rabidly rushing in information that has nothing to do with the town of Akhisar, Manisa. User:BRKY24

@BRKY24: Let's review some of the above:

1. You wrote that Demetrios wrote that "there are no links to BOA"; you even included it in quotation marks. I actually wrote, primary sources (BOA) for which there isn't even a page cited (diff); nothing about links. The abbreviation "BOA" stands for Başbakanlık Osmanlı Arşivi 'Prime Minister's Ottoman Archives'. The reason i mentioned pages and not links, is because i thought that these "BOA" references were taken from Arşiv Belgelerine Göre Balkanlar'da ve Anadolu'da Yunan Mezâlimi II: Anadolu'da Yunan Mezâlimi (1996), which was already cited in the article independently from the others.
2. You wrote that User Demetrios added this quote giving a figure for slaughtering of "7000 Greeks out of 10000" in a town that had 5000 Greeks. He also made a quite small addition into the quote "[Akhisar], thinking I will not read the article. This sort of shameless behavior should result in bans, if Wikipedia was even a slightly functional place. But if you did something like this in academia, your career would be over. You should take a deep breath, relax, and then familiarize yourself with basic MOS, as it pertains to quotations. Square brackets are used to indicate editorial replacements and insertions within quotations, that are meant to clarify certain points of the original quote, reduce the size of a quotation, or simply for grammatical purposes; per MOS:PMC and MOS:BRACKET. I simply added "Akhisar" in square brackets, because "Axari" (Αξάριον or Αξάρι in Greek) is an alternative name for it, just like Thyatira (Θυάτειρα in Greek); though, "Axari" is not mentioned anywhere in the article and thought it was reasonable to clarify the name for the readers. Furthermore, just because a primary source from 1917–18 claims that there were only ~5,800 (not 5,000) Greeks, it doesn't make it a fact. Last, the quote doesn't say that these Greeks were from the gorge of Kirtik Dere – naturally – but that they were slaughtered there; so did about 40,000 Christians from İzmir and Manisa, according to Number 31328.
3. You also wrote that [t]he villages listed by Demetrios have nothing to do with Akhisar[;] Dereköy, Emirdağ for instance is 300km away. I actually did this reinstatement by mistake. If you read an earlier thread above, the only mention of Dereköy (Emirdağ) – and in general this list of settlements – is by Alexikoua, making the same criticism against Խաղաղություն, who is now blocked indefinitely. It was the latter who originally included this list of irrelevant settlements (diff), then it was criticized by Alexikoua (diff), and eventually removed by you. There is no real disagreement here.

Now, regarding the rest of the content, there is no consensus on the use of primary sources alone for such controversial matters, let alone in wikivoice. Most of your citations (townsfolk reports, BOA, Toynbee) are primary sources, and will thus have to be removed. If you want to include this information, then i suggest to find a reliable secondary source commenting on them. This is something that GGT also agrees with. I will also remove the Archaeological Commentary on the Bible (1984), since both Alexikoua and GGT seem to agree. Last, there is no consensus on the use of Tok (2020); you will need to reach consensus with the editor who questioned its reliability, before you add it again. If you cannot reach consensus, then there are a number of options that can be followed for dispute resolution. Demetrios1993 (talk) 13:03, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Supposed contradictions and original research through editorializing

@Utku Öziz: First of all, happy new year!

Secondly, your recent additions are clearly an example of improper editorial synthesis. Please take some time to read and understand WP:SYNTHESIS and MOS:EDITORIAL. Aside of that, mentions such as that of a village in Burhaniye are WP:OFFTOPIC. Furthermore, i don't see any contradictions in the claim of Karathanasis. Specifically:

• According to the statistics of the Greek census of 1921, which you added, there were 7,638 Greeks in Akhisar that year. I am not aware of the exact month, but regardless, Karathanasis' figure of 10,000 Greeks pertains to the period between 27 August and 30 September 1922; about a year later. There is no contradiction here, nor anything strange. Even though i am not certain, i would imagine that this difference was due to the fact that many Greeks fled westwards with the retreating Greek Army, and thus the Aidin Vilayet, which includes Akhisar and Smyrna, would be full of such refugees. For example, in the book The Ottoman Endgame: War, Revolution, and the Making of the Modern Middle East, 1908 - 1923 (2015) by Sean McMeekin, we read:

Nevertheless, it is abundantly clear that nearly the entire Greek community of Smyrna and environs, alongside those Greek civilian refugees who had fled westward with the retreating army, in all perhaps 350,000 souls, were uprooted from their ancestral homes, which most would never see again.

In 1917–1918, prior of the 1921 census, there were even less; between 5,782 and 5,877 Greeks. So you see, there was a gradual increase until 1922.

• You also claimed that there is no Kırtık dere in the municipality of Akhisar, and that the only (at least regional) Kırtık dere is located two kilometres to the east of the town of Manisa. Your approach is wrong and anachronistic. First of all, why does Kırtık dere have to be in the municipality of Akhisar for Karathanasis' claim to be valid? Karathanasis makes no mention of a municipality. For the sake of an argument, let's say there is indeed no other Kırtık dere in the broader region; the town of Akhisar would still be very close, some kilometres northeast of that location. After all, Manisa, Kırtık dere, and Akhisar are all within the Manisa Province. Furthermore, back in 1922, the three aforementioned locations were all part of the Sanjak of Saruhan; a subdivision of the Aidin Vilayet.
• Diamantopoulos' account is also not contradictory. He simply describes a single event from the 13th of September 1922, which isn't even related to civilians, but 250 Greek soldiers. As aforementioned, Karathanasis gives a figure for the total number of Greeks who died during a period of about 35 days. Demetrios1993 (talk) 12:49, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

About the location of Kirtik Dere: even if it was located far away from Akhisar there is no way to question the validity of the incident: During death marches the civilian population was forced to move huge distances on foot before they were massacred. So the point here is that the murdered population were natives of Akhisar. As such I believe there is no big deal to go into detail where exactly this location is found.Alexikoua (talk) 05:11, 12 January 2023 (UTC)